Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #193

[photographer4]

Would it be easy for you or any prospective jurors to disregard this as intentional if the length of Libby's forearm and the side of her hand matched that mark?


Further, if it is presented that particles of bark are present on her hand and forearm, would that help change your opinion?

I certainly hope that any person serving on the upcoming jury is not willing to REFUSE any scientific expert or any solid information that is presented.

That mindset should be disclosed before taking such an important role.


AJMO

I'm basing my current opinion on the information available. I did ask earlier in a post whether LG had any defensive markings on her arms. Was there anything to suggest that her arm rested against that tree? A sliver perhaps from sliding it down along her fingers, hand or forearm? I have a hard time believing that a person who has been slashed who has been attacked and is bleeding from the neck is going to remove their hand from that wound -- unless they're trying to defend themselves from another attack. If she did lean against the tree, and she fell to her knees, then is there evidence that she fell face forward? That she was then flipped over to be looking up toward the sky? I'm not sure where exactly she is said to have been found. But if we're ONLY looking at the shape of the marking? Then, I'm afraid to me, that there is an intentional marking and it could well be an "F". I don't see it as a random thing caused by a dying child's last movements. I reserve the right to consider further evidence from both sides before I finalize my thoughts on this. MOOO.

 

[Arkay]

THAT? That is what they've been claiming is not only an intentional mark, but an intentional mark that is a specific symbol that tells them it's a ritual sacrifice???

*screams into the void*

If that is intentional, then every dirty smudge on the paint of my yellow hallway that I never get around to cleaning off is spelling out the sonnets of Shakespeare.

That is a transfer mark from someone or something bloody pressing or rubbing against the bark. Nothing more, nothing less.

Rune, my foot.

MOO

Yep. This smudge of a dying teenager bleeding out is the alleged tribute to a Norse god.

I guess if there were an Odin he wouldn’t be too pleased to have such illiterate followers. Can’t even write the alphabet.

And the supposed reason to kill them is Abby’s mom or someone was involved in an interracial relationship, right? So the pagans decide to kill two white girls.

Make it make sense!

Jmo

ETA: I know that there’s been so much made by the D that the branches, leaves and sticks are also part of a pagan ritual.

Again, IMO, if the girls were murdered in some other locale, like maybe in the desert, and then were covered by deciduous tree parts, I might wonder at it.
But when you kill two people IN THE WOODS, in the winter when leaves and sticks are on the forested floor, that strikes me as simply the handiest items with which to cover up your murderous work and buy yourself some time.

 

[photographer4]

Even the defense has moved away from trying to say it’s an F shape. Their expert calls it a Laguz rune.

ᛚ

Still doesn't change my view that this was an intentional marking - that may well be an "F" or not - but that doesn't seem a random marking to me. yet.

 

[tlcya]

Well, it doesn't look like one of those either, so I don't see what changing what runic letter they claim it looks like is going to do for them.

MOO

right? smoke mirrors cults sacrifices and symbols. oh my. GMAB

 

[Ravenmoon]

I'm basing my current opinion on the information available. I did ask earlier in a post whether LG had any defensive markings on her arms. Was there anything to suggest that her arm rested against that tree? A sliver perhaps from sliding it down along her fingers, hand or forearm? I have a hard time believing that a person who has been slashed who has been attacked and is bleeding from the neck is going to remove their hand from that wound -- unless they're trying to defend themselves from another attack. If she did lean against the tree, and she fell to her knees, then is there evidence that she fell face forward? That she was then flipped over to be looking up toward the sky? I'm not sure where exactly she is said to have been found. But if we're ONLY looking at the shape of the marking? Then, I'm afraid to me, that there is an intentional marking and it could well be an "F". I don't see it as a random thing caused by a dying child's last movements. I reserve the right to consider further evidence from both sides before I finalize my thoughts on this. MOOO.

That's fair.
Your previous post led me to believe that your mind was firmly made up.

We don't know exactly what was on either girls body. The D only presented what they wanted to.

JMO

 

[m00c0w]

Still doesn't change my view that this was an intentional marking - that may well be an "F" or not - but that doesn't seem a random marking to me. yet.

So what is your explanation if it was intentional?

 

[iamshadow21]

I believe if someone was intentionally putting that on the tree and they had all that blood readily available to them, then why in the world wouldn't they make it darker, make it more obvious, actually make it something instead of leaving it sorta looking like it could be 30 different things. Why even bother if you aren't going to actually do it?

Yeah, if the Manson girls could write death to pigs with total clarity, then someone could write a single letter on relatively smooth bark with the same clarity with little effort if that was their intention.

This smudge or swipe happened during or in the aftermath of the attack. I doubt the attacker even noticed it had been made.

MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

I'm basing my current opinion on the information available. I did ask earlier in a post whether LG had any defensive markings on her arms. Was there anything to suggest that her arm rested against that tree? A sliver perhaps from sliding it down along her fingers, hand or forearm? I have a hard time believing that a person who has been slashed who has been attacked and is bleeding from the neck is going to remove their hand from that wound -- unless they're trying to defend themselves from another attack. If she did lean against the tree, and she fell to her knees, then is there evidence that she fell face forward? That she was then flipped over to be looking up toward the sky? I'm not sure where exactly she is said to have been found. But if we're ONLY looking at the shape of the marking? Then, I'm afraid to me, that there is an intentional marking and it could well be an "F". I don't see it as a random thing caused by a dying child's last movements. I reserve the right to consider further evidence from both sides before I finalize my thoughts on this. MOOO.

Perhaps her right hand was on her neck while the left arm steadied her body?

 

[joe jones]

I am still thinking we may get a possible plea deal, if what we are told is true and he is very concerned about his family hearing all the crime scene and autopsy evidence then the only way to prevent this is to negotiate with the state, he has no wriggle room on sentence but he could ask for consideration as to where he would be housed so that he was near his family.

If he goes to trial on the limited information I have (the veracity of much of the information coming from the pre trial motion hearings is questionable, depending on who is speaking) read or listened to state has a case that they should be able to get to BARD - so going to trial he loses twice, he is found guilty and his family and everyone following trial have heard all the gruesome details of how they died, and that he was the sole perpetrator that did all the horrific things. It will be little comfort to him then if he continues to assert his innocence as by then all these alleged confessions will have been heard in open court, all the evidence will have been revealed and his family will have to continue their lives in the knowledge that all he is ànd has done is public knowledge.
I have no knowledge of how both families would view a plea deal, whether they may hold the view that they would accept a plea deal to not have every detail of the murders in the public domain or whether they wish to see him have a trial, it will be both families who will get to decide on a plea deal if it is ever to be considered, although he could throw a huge spanner in works and plead guilty. I think his mother and wife have decided that for now they are willing to be seen publicly supporting him and they surely have to know the strength of states case so he may know that they are going to continue to be in his life whatever choices he makes.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

That's fair.
Your previous post led me to believe that your mind was firmly made up.

We don't know exactly what was on either girls body. The D only presented what they wanted to.

JMO

And presented in the Franks Motion before they had even deposed the medical examiner. Per their own motion.

Page 34 footnote 26
FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

 

[Arkay]

Still doesn't change my view that this was an intentional marking - that may well be an "F" or not - but that doesn't seem a random marking to me. yet.

I have to respect other opinions that differ from my own, and you have written many posts in which you assert this is an intentional marking, which could or could not be an F rune.

I’m wondering what you think, then, was intentionally written in Libby’s blood on the tree?

IMO it’s not an F because it’s a vertical line with a splotch somewhere and another splotch elsewhere. Disconnected from what would be the stem of an F.

As @iamshadow21 pointed out, the Manson girls wrote a screed against the police using their victims’ blood.

This is no Helter Skelter, IMO.

I’m genuinely asking what you believe is intentionally written here?

IMO there is nothing recognizable as anything other than blood staining.

 

[sunshineray]

If we go back to why we have even talked about this for all these months.. it was in a defense Frank's motion.

Many of us here have reservations about these Franks memos and the interpretations contained in them and when anyone suggests things could be not true in them, we are met with lawyers can't lie. Well maybe not, but I'd say this gets as close to lying as one can get all in the name of getting something they want for their client. Just because it isn't an outright lie doesn't mean it's a fact. All these discussions where we have to go down these wild theories all because the defense puts this nonsense in their filings and then here we are.. round and round the merry go round.

Lies of ommission and outright fanciful speculations stated in ways that make them sound like statements of fact. And yes they did lie, about the 4 men named as murderers when they knew full well they were thoroughly investigated and had alibis. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

I believe if someone was intentionally putting that on the tree and they had all that blood readily available to them, then why in the world wouldn't they make it darker, make it more obvious, actually make it something instead of leaving it sorta looking like it could be 30 different things. Why even bother if you aren't going to actually do it?

Exactly!

 

[statt#1]

I believe if someone was intentionally putting that on the tree and they had all that blood readily available to them, then why in the world wouldn't they make it darker, make it more obvious, actually make it something instead of leaving it sorta looking like it could be 30 different things. Why even bother if you aren't going to actually do it?

I totally agree, and to add to this, I'd wager if some evil cult wanted to leave a mark, they'd make sure there was no doubt to it's interpretation...a tree ain't the best canvas!

It's all made up lies and bs, even prolonging the accused's right to a speedy trial.

sad.

I typed this response, it's my opinion

 

[FrostedGlass]

I believe if someone was intentionally putting that on the tree and they had all that blood readily available to them, then why in the world wouldn't they make it darker, make it more obvious, actually make it something instead of leaving it sorta looking like it could be 30 different things. Why even bother if you aren't going to actually do it?

Good question.
MOO
Maybe the blood was heavier and brighter when it was fresh. Maybe the bark absorbed some of the blood. Maybe the killer knew what it meant and didn't care about anyone else.
MOO

 

[sunshineray]

Still doesn't change my view that this was an intentional marking - that may well be an "F" or not - but that doesn't seem a random marking to me. yet.

In what way would Libby's bloodiness and Darwinian flight for life be considered random? It would seem, to me, a very purposeful action led to using that tree...when one's neck is being slashed and they're fleeing, fighting to stand, fighting for life. Rest peacefully Libby, you were so brave <3 AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

I am still thinking we may get a possible plea deal, if what we are told is true and he is very concerned about his family hearing all the crime scene and autopsy evidence then the only way to prevent this is to negotiate with the state, he has no wriggle room on sentence but he could ask for consideration as to where he would be housed so that he was near his family.

If he goes to trial on the limited information I have (the veracity of much of the information coming from the pre trial motion hearings is questionable, depending on who is speaking) read or listened to state has a case that they should be able to get to BARD - so going to trial he loses twice, he is found guilty and his family and everyone following trial have heard all the gruesome details of how they died, and that he was the sole perpetrator that did all the horrific things. It will be little comfort to him then if he continues to assert his innocence as by then all these alleged confessions will have been heard in open court, all the evidence will have been revealed and his family will have to continue their lives in the knowledge that all he is ànd has done is public knowledge.
I have no knowledge of how both families would view a plea deal, whether they may hold the view that they would accept a plea deal to not have every detail of the murders in the public domain or whether they wish to see him have a trial, it will be both families who will get to decide on a plea deal if it is ever to be considered, although he could throw a huge spanner in works and plead guilty. I think his mother and wife have decided that for now they are willing to be seen publicly supporting him and they surely have to know the strength of states case so he may know that they are going to continue to be in his life whatever choices he makes.

I don't think his lawyers will let him sign a plea agreement where his sentence can't be appealed. And as fas as RA's not wanting his family members from hearing the gory details of what he did to the girls, they could probably just leace tge courtroom, like they did at the hearings when Cisero took the stand. MO

 

[steeltowngirl]

All the D needs is for a juror or two to refuse to believe that this is the last mark made by a dying kid. I for one, do not believe this was an unintentional mark made by anyone. I see this as an intentional marking, and I do believe it resembles the shape of an F. The long vertical stem is intersected by a horizontal line and there is a ball shape where they intersect. THis makes me believe this was intentional. MOOO. Going to be very interesting to see what the D does with this marking if anything.

It would take 12 jurors to buy into the idea that someone else painted a letter on a tree in Libby’s blood, and therefore it was a ritual, and thus the killer cannot be Richard Allen.

Not 1 or 2 jurors.
Twelve.

A verdict to acquit must be unanimous.

Ain’t gonna happen.
Not with that theory.

jmo

 

[SouthEnd]

Regarding the blood smudge on the tree:

When I was a toddler, I would spend *hours* looking at the marble tiling of my grandma's bathroom. Eventually I'd start making out characters and scenes, entire story lines of scary beasts and cute animals and armies. One day I ran and got my grandma because I was certain I had seen a goathead that moved and that was terrifying. She scolded me for making up stories, but for me, the fear was 100% real.

We have evolved to make out patterns. Or, rather, our eyes take in bits and bobs of visual data and arrange it in ways that make sense, conjuring familiar shapes and faces.

In a sense, that's what allows us to follow storytelling; most stories, whether it is novels or movies, are based on the Jungian/tragic principles of the hero's journey. Our brain does not like new patterns that we can't identify; they mean chaos. Chaos, to our ancestors, was dangerous. Animals they'd never met before and didn't know if they were venomous. Strange weather patterns that could kill the crops.

There is a great article about how otherwise sane minds can extrapolate logically impossible theories out of data that shouldn't add up. When the human tendency to detect patterns goes too far | Psyche Ideas

All this to say... it is great to entertain the possibilities, if you are an investigator, early on. Open-mind and the willingness to ask all the questions means you will (ironically) not get tunnel vision on a single POI. But there is a point where it becomes way more prudent to entertain that a smudge on a tree is not an ever-changing rune, but a smudge.
Why?
Because of probability. If you are by a lake and you hear a duck quack, it could, of course, be a drone, playing the recording of a duck quack, and it might mean that there are no more ducks in the world. But if you are actually seeing a duck, visually, that quacks like a duck, and a blood splatter expert says it bleeds like a duck, then it is most likely a duck.

Occam's razor, and all, 100%, my opinion.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Regarding the blood smudge on the tree:

When I was a toddler, I would spend *hours* looking at the marble tiling of my grandma's bathroom. Eventually I'd start making out characters and scenes, entire story lines of scary beasts and cute animals and armies. One day I ran and got my grandma because I was certain I had seen a goathead that moved and that was terrifying. She scolded me for making up stories, but for me, the fear was 100% real.

We have evolved to make out patterns. Or, rather, our eyes take in bits and bobs of visual data and arrange it in ways that make sense, conjuring familiar shapes and faces.

In a sense, that's what allows us to follow storytelling; most stories, whether it is novels or movies, are based on the Jungian/tragic principles of the hero's journey. Our brain does not like new patterns that we can't identify; they mean chaos. Chaos, to our ancestors, was dangerous. Animals they'd never met before and didn't know if they were venomous. Strange weather patterns that could kill the crops.

There is a great article about how otherwise sane minds can extrapolate logically impossible theories out of data that shouldn't add up. When the human tendency to detect patterns goes too far | Psyche Ideas

All this to say... it is great to entertain the possibilities, if you are an investigator, early on. Open-mind and the willingness to ask all the questions means you will (ironically) not get tunnel vision on a single POI. But there is a point where it becomes way more prudent to entertain that a smudge on a tree is not an ever-changing rune, but a smudge.
Why?
Because of probability. If you are by a lake and you hear a duck quack, it could, of course, be a drone, playing the recording of a duck quack, and it might mean that there are no more ducks in the world. But if you are actually seeing a duck, visually, that quacks like a duck, and a blood splatter expert says it bleeds like a duck, then it is most likely a duck.

Occam's razor, and all, 100%, my opinion.

It’s like seeing Jesus’ face in toast. It’s there for one who wants to believe and see. Which is great!

But in the end, it’s still toast.

jmo