Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[photographer4]

I have pinned where the “old farm bureau building” was before they finished construction on the new one, it was turned into a parking lot

Farm Bureau to build new building - Carroll County Comet

Wait there actually was an old farm building where he claimed he parked? So the Prosecution think he lied to and said he parked there when actually he parked at the old CPS building where a witness said she saw a car backed in?

 

[photographer4]

If jury visitation of the crime scenes is allowed, I think LE should close down the areas of the crime scenes until after a jury visitation. The site could easily be tampered with before the visitation. I am not saying that would happen but anything and everything has happened to delay bringing the case to court by the defense. If budget money is not available to post a guard then cameras should be used to monitor.

Actually I had similar thoughts - once the scene was cleared and released by LE back to the land owner then what would have stopped him or the new owners from changing the area where the bodies were found in all the years since that time? Maybe a path exists now that didn’t then? Or trees and brush maybe have been cleared away? Perhaps some memorial exists to the girls there (which could imo be an influencing factor for jurors). Maybe it’s very diff now to how it was then?

Surely the lawyers on both sides have been to the site at least once if not more than once, right? I wondered then, did the Le ever ask the land owner / subsequent owner to make no changes in that area or install fencing and or video monitoring to help ensure it wasn’t changed in any real way? Is that something that the lawyers for either side may have done in a motion we don’t yet know about?

Just wondering.

 

[photographer4]

Snipped by me: Would the jury even hear about it if it is ultimately denied?

Imo that won't fly in regards to the defense's possible supposition that RA couldn't have done it due to the landscape issues, because we know the girls' crossed that bridge, were more than likely made to go down the hill, and ended up where they were found.

Edited to add: Don't forget they were at gun point according to the state.

Yeah actually I have no idea? I suppose JG could bar the D from mentioned the field trip they wanted if she denies it and maybe she will do just that. Will it matter though? It was in the news and all over online that they requested it. I wouldn’t be shocked if at least a few who end up as jurors end up aware even if the D end up precluded by court order from mentioning it at trial. Moo

 

[sunshineray]

ETA as someone did answer this and I didn’t notice the answer until I had posted. Ty.

Just wondering - so GH says he saw the crime scene photos right? And he’s discussing what they show if I understood the transcript correctly? So how did he actually get crime scene photos? Are these the ones from the time Mw took them from the lawyers office? Or some others that are unverified? Thanks in advance as I can’t listen / watch the show. I may have misunderstood something in the transcript given my need of coffee.

As far as I remember, he was emailed them as others were. I believe by the man MW sent them to?

 

[sunshineray]

Oh. I’ll edit my last post as you just answered my question.

I’m confused a bit though. If the photos he received were supposed to have been under a publication ban or some other order to prevent public access - how is he allowed to discuss the contents on his social media show? Genuine question as I try to understand is all. Ty in advance.

He's not a witness, family, LE, nor involved with the court, defense or prosecution. He did not publish them.

 

[sunshineray]

Oh! Gosh I wasn’t quoting you - the “allegedly abducted” is actually how the D worded it in their motion. I am sorry if this was unclear - I should have added this in brackets I guess to help clarify.

Here is the post where someone included the motion in a link:
Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196'
Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

And for ease of access: a screen shot with the bit I was referring to highlighted. Sorry if you felt attacked or anything - not intentional.View attachment 533137

Yes but the charges make it clear what occured...kidnapping not abduction. MO

 

[mrjitty]

I can see the defense making some weird circular argument that RA couldn’t have done it alone because he wouldn’t have been able to carry the girls out by himself (and possibly bring up some sort of disability), so obviously it had to be other people involved.

All the while ignoring that he could have just kidnapped them down the hill and killed them at the crime scene.

JMO

Agreed. argue more than one person did it - someone was there in the dead of night, through your hands in the air stuff ....

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, but someone did that. They were on the trails, then they were missing, then they were found dead. It's not really a point for or against RA, IMO.

Agreed - IMO this is the real challenge.

IMO any reasonable juror is going to infer Bridge Guy did this, because unusually, we have video of the killer doing the abduction, so we know exactly where they were kidnapped and where they went - which is not far.

So they need an alternative suspect who looks like Bridge Guy and/or the idea there are others involved.

My guess is this is why they went all in on the Franks, rather than pursuing the more obvious suspects.

So now they are down to arguing there are multiple Bridge Guys or maybe there was no abduction etc. It strikes me as a low percentage strategy,

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Does the Defense team visit here and read these posts?

I just think how ironic it is that we were literally just discussing where RA (if guilty) may have left the crime scene from to get back to his car and then the DT files this.

IMO the MurderSheet discord leak coverage makes clear it's symbiotic. They adopt theories from their surrogates, promote then in filings, and also spread them online. So when a top surrogate says something along the lines of "they should drop this Franks stuff and focus on timeline and get a searcher to say the bodies weren't there" it seems like advice, but he was probably briefed that

So inevitably stuff we end up discussing here comes from them.

MOO

 

[Melted]

Wait there actually was an old farm building where he claimed he parked? So the Prosecution think he lied to and said he parked there when actually he parked at the old CPS building where a witness said she saw a car backed in?

Well it’s confusing because “the old farm bureau building” has been gone since 2012 and it’s a parking lot now.

I don’t know how the prosecution got “old cps building” from old farm building, I don’t know if they nailed that down in interrogation or what.

time will tell. JMO

 

[shonyakay]

Well it’s confusing because “the old farm bureau building” has been gone since 2012 and it’s a parking lot now.

I don’t know how the prosecution got “old cps building” from old farm building, I don’t know if they nailed that down in interrogation or what.

time will tell. JMO

The answer is located in RA's PCA.

 

[shonyakay]

Well it’s confusing because “the old farm bureau building” has been gone since 2012 and it’s a parking lot now.

I don’t know how the prosecution got “old cps building” from old farm building, I don’t know if they nailed that down in interrogation or what.

time will tell. JMO

When RA first contacted the police in Feb. 2017, DD's tip narrative says RA parked at the old farm bureau building and walked to Freedom Bridge.

The PCA says investigators believe RA was talking about the old CPS building.

There are also witnesses who say they saw a car similar to RA's 2016 Black Ford Focus parked at the old CPS building.

 

[shonyakay]

Well it’s confusing because “the old farm bureau building” has been gone since 2012 and it’s a parking lot now.

I don’t know how the prosecution got “old cps building” from old farm building, I don’t know if they nailed that down in interrogation or what.

time will tell. JMO

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

 

[Andieinsyd]

I am curious if RA would go to the scene with everyone? I can't recall in past trials if the accused goes along on these trips or not.

When I saw this came from the DT, my first thought was I am sure they will walk him around and he will pretend to have difficulty walking around in the terrain. There has to be something they think will be gained from this or they wouldn't put this request in.

I am curious how they would get jurors out to the actual crime scene? This would mean they need to walk the trail and to get to the location they were killed would mean walking through the woods. Often jurors are older and less mobile than others. I can see that being a problem.

I wonder if the DT want to highlight that there is another way to access the crime scene that is not via the bridge. They may want to introduce doubt that Abby and Libby were kidnapped from the bridge, instead state they were on their way out of the trails and then forced off the path and down the hill to the crime scene. By someone other than RA of course. If the jury are taken to the crime scene that way, it may seem reasonable to them that this is what happened. If the DT attack all of the circumstantial evidence that sets up the timeline piece by piece it might not be bad strategy.

I’m not sure Judge Gull will allow though for all of the reasons stated. The whole area will look different, lots of work has been done, different time of year. IANAL MOO.

 

[Vern]

D-20 ...

 

[FrostedGlass]

IMO

If the jury was allowed the visit to the crime scene, they could be taken up the private drive and stop under the bridge. All they would have to do is step out of the vehicle to see the first part of down the hill. Then, they could look across the creek to the crime scene. I think there is zero chance of this judge allowing that to happen.

I believe there is something about the timeline that's beneficial to RA's case.

 

[sunshineray]

Unless all the jurors can visit all the relevant areas I think this is not going to happen.
JG may wait to rule on it after a jury is selected.
If it’s a jury of 30 year old Olympians, it might fly.
If it’s a jury of regular folks, the chances of somebody, through age or infirmary not being able to participate fully in the visit would be probably 50%.
If you were named a juror today, would you be able to go? I wouldn’t. Ten years ago, yes. Not now with neuropathy feet.

I'm getting up there and I walk the woods, our forest, regularly. If land owners allow access I think seeing the crime scene (through RL property) and even the south end of Monon Bridge (through Mear's property) might be doable for most. Going "down the hill" though, no. They could be taken in the SUV vans on the access road at the bottom and get out to view that aspect of things. It will depend for sure on juror's capabilities though. Every juror must participate in what is visited, that's for sure, nobody excluded. MO

 

[sunshineray]

I see this as entirely feasible. Think about it. Are we really going to arrange transportation for 12 jurors to the CS? Who else gets to go on this little field trip? Lawyers? Court reporter? Sargent of Arms? Judge? Bus driver? How about associated necessary equipment? What about security? How about potential special needs for jurors? Lunch? Dinner? Motel rooms for a little overnight?

Assuming we arrive, where's the bus park? Are we walking to the bridge? In January? Or any other month for that matter. Golf carts to run back the paved trail? Just how do we expect 12 jurors and associated entourage is to arrive at the CS where the girls were found? Shall they cross the creek to get a good feel for what it was like? Or are they going to scale the fence at the back of the cemetery, and scramble down the wooded hill to the bottom land? ATV's? Yeah, we'll put 'em on ATV's and it'll be a 4-wheel excursion for everybody.

I sure hope it ain't rainin', or snowing that day

It would need property owners allowing their land to be accessed...otherwise, IMO, it probably won't be doable.

 

[sunshineray]

Yes, but someone did that. They were on the trails, then they were missing, then they were found dead. It's not really a point for or against RA, IMO.

It would mostly hinge on if RA's confessions are heard before or after the crime scene trip. I think it would be much more powerful, for the prosecution, if viewed after hearing RA's confessions w/details. MO If I was a juror, I'd be replaying what RA said he did, picturing it, while viewing the scene.

 

[shonyakay]

D-20 ...

So close, yet so far.

Thinking of Abby's and Libby's families.