Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

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I would think crime scene photos were taken in abundance and pretty straight forward. I'm guessing when the D continued on with their fantasy Odinist sacrificial ritual defense, it was time to have an expert in blood spatter assess the crime scene to disprove that ridiculous and without proof theory. The Prosecution probably thought, well ok, they ARE actually going with this nonsense. That would be my guess, my opinion.

I think the lack of a transcript of questions and answers, that you're including in a motion, shows a real lack of competence on the D's part. It's rather embarrassing really, IMO
I think it shows they need to get an answer as soon as possible pref before trial. Maybe it isn’t their fault the transcript isn’t ready yet. The deposition was done on Sept 13. It’s weeks ago. Whats the hold up I wonder?
 
That's been motioned now four times (FMs) and denied. It's like they just want false drama because they don't have a case to put on. MO
I think they are doing a good job actually. They’re raising issues with the trial process and deposition responses or lack thereof are part of that imo.
 
Do you mean the legal system doesn't mind or do you mean that Websleuths/true crime followers don't mind? Because I do mind greatly. It is one thing to acknowledge that you received the photos, and I have no problem with a recipient making very very general statements like "it definitely was that one wooded area we suspected was where they were found." But IMHO, details beyond that should not be publicly disclosed by someone who received leaked or mis-sent information. And I hold that opinion irregardless of who relays those details, whether it be Gray Hughes or The Murder Sheet (however, iirc, TMS did NOT give any specifics of what they saw in the photos, but I would need to go back to check).
I think you articulated my thought better than I did.
 
Blood spatter matters because the defense is trying to claim that the blood Libby left on a tree as she was dying is not what it is. Their claims that have now been not allowed in at trial were outrageous and THAT is why blood spatter matters. They brought in an expert to prove that the blood was left by Libby and not painted on the tree. It matters a lot to many of us. The state hasn't been able to "open their vest" because there is a gag order and they are abiding by it.
I agree with the majority of your post. That is exactly why the blood spatter in this case matters, because of the outrageous claim that it was purposeful and represents something specific that DT so badly wishes would point away from their client as the killer.

I don't know that I think the gag order has prevented the state from "opening their vest' to show the rest of their case. I think they would still be playing their cards close to that vest even if that gag order didn't exist. Why? because they aren't required to show the public what cards they are holding and the DT already knows what they hold through discovery and supplements to that discovery.

Even if there were no gag order, I don't think the state would be advertising every element of their case to the public prior to trial. Why would they? But we only have a few more weeks to wait at this point so I am willing to wait that long to see their cards.

tick tock Richard. ;)
 
Well that depends on the question being asked. It's easy to confuse a question or state it in a way that part of it is right and part of it is not right so how do you answer yes or no to something that factually to your knowledge isn't 100% true, but part of it is. Then without letting the person being questioned explain the answer or clarify that yes x is true, but y is not accurate as they know it.. that is the problem.
I would ask them to clarify or break the question into two parts if I were the deponent. I wonder if the P did this or not?
 
Right, the D filed the Motion for Speedy Trial after they were reinstated in March and let the 70 day clock run down to ask for a continuance of the May trial. Gosh, there's been so many trial dates it's hard to keep up with them all. Original Jan, then May, and now Oct.

We'll just have to see if the D gets their man to Court this time.

JMO
Right? And the way the new motion is worded the D makes it seem like there was no blood spatter expert from the state until sometime in 2024. I wonder if the state, suddenly decided to get a blood spatter guy because suddenly they worried the D may have a strong case as to what the spatter actually was (eg; intentional symbol vs the handprint of a badly wounded, dying girl). I wonder what investigators originally thought of the spatter marking then? Curious to know so much more.
 
Blood spatter matters because the defense is trying to claim that the blood Libby left on a tree as she was dying is not what it is. Their claims that have now been not allowed in at trial were outrageous and THAT is why blood spatter matters. They brought in an expert to prove that the blood was left by Libby and not painted on the tree

Even if there were no gag order, I don't think the state would be advertising every element of their case to the public prior to trial. Why would they? But we only have a few more weeks to wait at this point so I am willing to wait that long to see their cards.

Agree and agree.

It’s evidence upon evidence, IMO, which together with the other evidence make the case.

It was important to disabuse the jury of the counterfeit notion of a rune on the tree, since that does not appear to be persuasive, according to the judge. IMO the blood spatter expert’s testimony helped quash the FM.

Also, as in all trials, the prosecution does not have to reveal all evidence to us, the general population speculating from afar.

We can speculate now, and later we can be spectators as evidence is revealed in the courtroom for the jury and relayed back to the public. The case is not meant to be decided by the vast audience who is interested in this case, but by the 12 who matter.

IMO
 
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IMO if it wasn't for the defense team, we would know nothing about this case except for what Nick has told us.
We only know what the Defense wants us to 'know' (I don't trust half of what they've interpreted) and many things that the general public had no business knowing before trial.

The State has respected the gag order, good on them, they had to make an arrest announcement which was well before the gag order was in place. The State was and is not obligated to tell us anything regarding the case.

AB's good buddy MW 'snookered' him (his words) by leaking supposedly guarded, highly confidential CS pics and information to SM and the Internet cranks to get their narrative pushed out. Doesn't surprise me, but it's still reprehensible conduct as was the continued fall out on YT, X, FB etc.

The D wrote the Hail Mary 138 page Franks Memo #1, then 2,3,4,5, and many, many other Filing & Motions to continue disclosing case information and complaints out to the public. IMO

Hopefully Rozzi and Baldwin will get RA to trial and this will be decided by a jury of his peers in a few weeks. The emotional damage to the families of Libby and Abby, their friends, LE, and the community of Delphi as a whole is just incomprehensible.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

JMO
 
MOO the state decided nothing "suddenly"

IMO they obtained an expert because the Franks Motions simply kept on coming from the other side. Shoot one down, another amended pops up, then another, then a fourth. I think the expert was sought and hired because it was evident from pretty early on that the DT was going to be running with their SODDI theory involving ritual murder and runes so the state had to expend funds to hire an expert to refute said theory since the DT kept pushing that theory, even going so far as to make sure we, the public knew all about it through their filings.

I think initially investigators thought the blood spatter was from a very bloody double murder and blood spattered as blood will tend to do in such a scene. After an exhaustive investigation, I think they pretty much still believe that to be true. I don't believe the hiring of an expert in blood spatter is indicative of the state thinking the DT has a strong case, I think the state was simply doing its job in refuting the ridiculous theory being espoused by the DT.
 
Agree and agree.

It’s evidence upon evidence, IMO, which together with the other evidence make the case.

It was important to disabuse the jury of the counterfeit notion of a rune on the tree, since that does not appear to be persuasive, according to the judge. IMO the blood spatter expert’s testimony helped quash the FM.

Also, as in all trials, the prosecution does not have to reveal all evidence to us, the general population speculating from afar.

We can speculate now, and later we can be spectators as evidence is revealed in the courtroom for the jury and relayed back to the public. The case is not meant to be decided by the vast audience who is interested in this case, but by the 12 who matter.

IMO
I wonder how the 12 jurors might feel after the trial when / if they learn of the things being kept from them? I hope some will give interviews down the road. Moo.
 
I wonder how the 12 jurors might feel after the trial when / if they learn of the things being kept from them? I hope some will give interviews down the road. Moo.
UBM - to which "things" are you referring? They will see and hear evidence from the state and evidence from the defense. I am confused by your query.
 
Right? And the way the new motion is worded the D makes it seem like there was no blood spatter expert from the state until sometime in 2024. I wonder if the state, suddenly decided to get a blood spatter guy because suddenly they worried the D may have a strong case as to what the spatter actually was (eg; intentional symbol vs the handprint of a badly wounded, dying girl). I wonder what investigators originally thought of the spatter marking then? Curious to know so much more.
It was said that the CSI and LE were emotionally and physically devastated by the crime scene as I can surely understand, this is real life not Hollywood. Abby and Libby, two innocent young girls were brutally murdered by a monster.

I personally am not curious, nor did I read the particulars of the CS section of the D's Franks Memo or read the transcript from the hearings by the State's expert because it is too painful for me. I only know what has been referenced here in posts on the CS details, which isn't very much besides the clothing (who was wearing what).

I do not envy any member of this jury. :(

JMO
 
IMO if it wasn't for the defense team, we would know nothing about this case except for what Nick has told us.

Respectfully,

…The case is under a gag order, NMcL is not supposed to be telling us anything. Why the defense hasn’t been sanctioned for this is mystifying to me.
…The defense has slyly and underhandedly violated the gag order by revealing things through motions that they know are open to the public.
…Most of the things revealed through defense motions have been exposed as misleading or complete fabrications by sworn testimony. That information can, in no way, be defined as letting people know about this case, because it’s a bunch of lies.
…Thanks to the defense, crime scene photos of these precious children are floating around unfettered on the internet.
…If it wasn’t for the defense, this trial would be over.

My opinion
 
MOO the state decided nothing "suddenly"

IMO they obtained an expert because the Franks Motions simply kept on coming from the other side. Shoot one down, another amended pops up, then another, then a fourth. I think the expert was sought and hired because it was evident from pretty early on that the DT was going to be running with their SODDI theory involving ritual murder and runes so the state had to expend funds to hire an expert to refute said theory since the DT kept pushing that theory, even going so far as to make sure we, the public knew all about it through their filings.

I think initially investigators thought the blood spatter was from a very bloody double murder and blood spattered as blood will tend to do in such a scene. After an exhaustive investigation, I think they pretty much still believe that to be true. I don't believe the hiring of an expert in blood spatter is indicative of the state thinking the DT has a strong case, I think the state was simply doing its job in refuting the ridiculous theory being espoused by the DT.
I mean I am not a lawyer but if I were the State, having seen even only the first of the long line of Franks Motions… you can bet I’d have an expert tell me his view that this is the handprint of a dying girl long before the State did in this case. That first Franks was filed last fall - but yet, no expert on board for the State until many many months later? So did the state not take any of the concerns in the Franks seriously then until closer to a trial date when they realized their back ends may be flappin in the breeze and maybe they should get someone?

moo
 
Respectfully,

…The case is under a gag order, NMcL is not supposed to be telling us anything. Why the defense hasn’t been sanctioned for this is mystifying to me.
…The defense has slyly and underhandedly violated the gag order by revealing things through motions that they know are open to the public.
…Most of the things revealed through defense motions have been exposed as misleading or complete fabrications by sworn testimony. That information can, in no way, be defined as letting people know about this case, because it’s a bunch of lies.
…Thanks to the defense, crime scene photos of these precious children are floating around unfettered on the internet.
…If it wasn’t for the defense, this trial would be over.

My opinion
I don’t think that the D were sanctioned because at the contempt hearing JG found they didn’t deliberately violate the order. Richard Allen's defense attorneys not held in contempt

If she didn’t find them at fault, I don’t really think we can either (moo). I think the gag order benefits the State more than it does RA. Actually, I see zero benefit to it for RA at all really. Moo.

I don’t actually agree with publication bans at all in any case I have followed. I prefer transparency. This case has suffered a lot of harm as a result of the secrecy bc rumours grow wings and there is a profit to be made by social media content creators etc etc. I am not even sure it will help much when they try to select a jury really.

Actually what aside the honour system stops someone who ends up selected for jury duty from going home and reading / viewing / listening to all they can find about this case online?
 
I mean I am not a lawyer but if I were the State, having seen even only the first of the long line of Franks Motions… you can bet I’d have an expert tell me his view that this is the handprint of a dying girl long before the State did in this case. That first Franks was filed last fall - but yet, no expert on board for the State until many many months later? So did the state not take any of the concerns in the Franks seriously then until closer to a trial date when they realized their back ends may be flappin in the breeze and maybe they should get someone?

moo
:D, I get it. We both have very different opinions on this case and exactly whose back end is and will continue to be flappin in the breeze.

Let's not forget that the fall of 2023 and spring of 2024 were pretty eventful months with some very unusual stuff going on in this case.

the state may have not decided to rush out and waste their resources hiring an expert that may not be needed because suddenly the court and this entire case were mired in the drama that ensued both out of court and in over the leaked photos, the DT's brief removal from the case and the subsequent SCOIN filing. Had the DT STAYED fired, we don't know that a new DT would be pursuing the same theory the DT wasted so much time and effort on. JMO

But that did not happen, DT was back in the game and right back to filing their little motions press releases to the public about SODDI and runes so then the state had to address it because DT was asking the judge to allow them to make their argument before the jury about it. in my mind that is not the state being concerned about their own back ends.
 
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:D, I get it. We both have very different opinions on this case and exactly whose back end is and will continue to be flappin in the breeze.

Let's not forget that the fall of 2023 and spring of 2024 were pretty eventful months with some very unusual stuff going on in this case.

the state may have not decided to rush out and waste their resources hiring an expert that may not be needed because suddenly the court and this entire case were mired in the drama that ensued both out of court and in over the leaked photos, the DT's brief removal from the case and the subsequent SCOIN filing. Had the DT STAYED fired, we don't know that a new DT would be pursuing the same theory the DT wasted so much time and effort on. JMO

But that did not happen, DT was back in the game and right back to filing their little motions press releases to the public about SODDI and runes so then the state had to address it because DT was asking the judge to allow them to make their argument before the jury about it. in my mind that is not the state being concerned about their own back ends.
I wonder how much of this could have been possibly avoided if a publication ban had t been imposed in the first place? This is part of how I think bans harm more than help most cases (at least the ones I am aware of their use in).

Diff views are all good. I enjoy a good discussion and considering other views. Have learned a lot and been challenged a lot. I want this guy to face the music if he is guilty of any involvement here. Hopefully we get to trial this time!
 
I mean I am not a lawyer but if I were the State, having seen even only the first of the long line of Franks Motions… you can bet I’d have an expert tell me his view that this is the handprint of a dying girl long before the State did in this case. That first Franks was filed last fall - but yet, no expert on board for the State until many many months later? So did the state not take any of the concerns in the Franks seriously then until closer to a trial date when they realized their back ends may be flappin in the breeze and maybe they should get someone?

moo
It’s my opinion that Cicero was brought on by the state mainly to support the motion in limine. The MIL was filed in April, which is when Cicero said he began work. The state likely saw that after repeated Franks motions full of half truths and misleading statements that the defense would not be reasonable and they would need to ask the court to specifically restrict certain talking points. A key step towards discrediting the defense’s theory was getting the “rune” on the tree debunked. That’s what Cicero was for. It’s less that they rushed to get something done because they felt exposed, they were probably just tired of having to wade through the ridiculous theories, speculation, and misstatements and decided to just make the defense put their money where their mouths were, so to speak.

All my opinion.
 
The answers Mullin provided make me think he is worried about possibly perjuring himself if he answers yes or no vs repeating his assertions on who the witnesses saw.

I don’t think JG is going to compel the deponents to answer the questions and I imagine she or the Prosecution will shut these down if they come up at trial as well. I wonder if the D only filed this to add to their ever growing pile of reasons to seek appeal on possible conviction?
For starters, it’s convenient that the defense doesn’t have access to the actual questions and answers, so what we have is effectively paraphrasing. And we don’t even know which of the questions was actually posed, because the defense carefully points out the questions were either asked or would have been asked if Mullins was answering as the defense wished.

As far as perjury, the defense is asking for an opinion on a hypothetical scenario. He’s not perjuring himself on that question regardless of which way he answers (yes or no). Instead, he probably just doesn’t want to get locked into yes/no answers with loaded questions… which I don’t blame him.

Now, stating that they did see RA is interesting because that would potentially open him up to perjury if he’s stating that as a fact and it is not something known as a fact. If he were as afraid of perjuring himself as you suggest, he certainly wouldn’t be saying what he’s alleged to have said.

All my opinion.
 

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