Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[shonyakay]

Snipped for focus by me: If they were not confident enough in who / what they saw, then isn't that a point for the defense? You're saying the transcripts say that they didn't want to make the sketches at all right? But then in the motion to answer certified questions we saw yesterday, we have the D asking LE yes or no questions about what the witnesses said... and the LE in question won't give a yes or no - instead, he just keeps on asserting the witnesses saw RA - which, frankly, he cannot possibly know who or what they saw since ya know, he isn't them. Adobe Acrobat

In the same testimony from the back and forth between NM and Holeman they agree that the timeline is what makes RA BG, not the sketches
provided by these witnesses.

 

[photographer4]

This is a complete misstatement of the facts. Nowhere in the Franks memo does BB discuss the man she saw being RA or not RA. She was adamant her sketch be released because she didn’t feel like sketch 1 fit the man she saw, but she could have easily agreed RA looked like the man she saw at a later point in time after the arrests. The defense never tried to claim she denied it was RA in recent statements, just implying it with old statements regarding the sketches.

All opinion, based on your source.

I have provided the screen shots from the franks in question which can be found here - https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf
If she only decided around the time when RA was arrested (eg: a photo lineup if one was done before they arrested him or a line up post arrest for instance - I do NOT know if this happened, so merely an example)... then I'm afraid that is concerning imo. I would worry if I were a juror that she had been swayed by LE even unintentionally. Eyewitness accuracy in police lineups

 

[photographer4]

I found it. It's in Holeman's testimony from August 1, 2024.

Q. And are you aware that in this offense my understanding is that Ms. Carbaugh and Ms.Blair, they didn't want to do a sketch, but they were pressured by police to assist in the investigation, is that a true statement? - NM
A. Yes. - Holeman

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/allenholemanaug1-pdf.530074/

Wow! Thank you for taking the time to find and post this!

 

[sunshineray]

At this point, the confessions don’t impress me. We don’t know what info he may have learned from LE during interviews or overheard among staff etc at any point (if any). We don’t know how much he learned from disclosure or even from his own lawyers or loved ones. If he made false confessions he wouldn’t be the first to have done so and he surely won’t be the last. I don’t know how many people have confessed over and over again though so I acknowledge there may be that to overcome as well (and I don’t know if that can be overcome really). Moooooo

I think it might be safe to say, he'd be the very first to make 60+ confessions w/details and dozens more incriminating statements. I think that might be some sort of record? The odds of an innocent man falsely confessing that many times, not to LE while under interrogation, but freely to numerous people including his family members and mental health doctor, that I'd think is unheard of...before RA. Just my thoughts and opinions.

 

[Yemelyan]

In the same testimony from the back and forth between NM and Holeman they agree that the timeline is what makes RA BG, not the sketches
provided by these witnesses.

I watched a trial once where a man dismembered his victims and disposed of one victim's lower body parts in a nature reserve. At his trial, the prosecution called to the stand a woman who was playing with her grandchild in the front yard of a house when she observed a man walking into the nature reserve area on the day in question. She did not see him close up, and could not identify his face or say the defendant was THE person she had seen, but she was able to describe the general appearance of him (his race, his build) and that he carried a backpack, where he was walking and the direction that he went. The value of this testimony was not that she could identify him specifically, but to establish that someone who reasonably looked like him was in the area that the body parts were found, and to shore up digital evidence from his cell phone (Snap Chat, I believe) that showed his location in that same area at the exact same time.

This is an example of how investigators use evidence that "stacks;" in and of itself, a particular piece may not "prove," especially BARD, but it contributes to an overall timeline of what we can say reasonably happened from looking at the evidence as a whole.

 

[photographer4]

I think it might be safe to say, he'd be the very first to make 60+ confessions w/details and dozens more incriminating statements. I think that might be some sort of record? The odds of an innocent man falsely confessing that many times, not to LE while under interrogation, but freely to numerous people including his family members and mental health doctor, that I'd think is unheard of...before RA. Just my thoughts and opinions.

Just doing some basic research now on false confessions actually and have learned there’s even a technique police use to get confessions called The Reid Technique which you can learn more about here: Yes, innocent people do confess | Ohio State Bar Association

Not all that far off what happened to RA imo - they brought him in and questioned him away from home / his comforts etc. They told him they knew he was guilty - https://fox59.com/indiana-news/rich...ver-read-miranda-rights-during-interrogation/

Yeah, those confessions may have lots of things in them - but imo we should wonder what he learned from the interrogation / overheard things if any / disclosure / rumours before his arrest etc….

His mental health at the time of his statements is also worrisome to me. He clearly wasn’t all there for whatever reason. And who knows maybe he wasn’t all there when two kids were killed, perhaps by him. Until we know a lot more, I don’t out much faith in his statements post arrest.

Moo

 

[photographer4]

dbm bc it was a duplicated post.

 

[sunshineray]

I wasn't looking for anything regarding RA's clothing at the moment but this article does point out that the Defense team says that...

"Allen did not dispose of his guns, car or clothes, all of which were mentioned in court documents, in the five years since the girls' deaths.

'He is innocent' | Attorneys for Delphi suspect release statement on client's involvement in murder investigation

Defense lawyers for Richard Allen say their client has tried to help investigators over the five years since Libby German and Abby Williams were killed.

www.wthr.com

I guess I wasn't totally crazy to think RA kept his clothing he wore that day. Hopefully it yields evidence connecting to him to the crime scene.

Well that's what his lawyer said about the clothes RA may have told him he wore that day, doesn't make it the truth, does it. I'll wait to hear RA's confessions and whether he talked about his murder clothes.

 

[ClearAhead]

Just doing some basic research now on false confessions actually and have learned there’s even a technique police use to get confessions called The Reid Technique which you can learn more about here: Yes, innocent people do confess | Ohio State Bar Association

Not all that far off what happened to RA imo - they brought him in and questioned him away from home / his comforts etc. They told him they knew he was guilty - https://fox59.com/indiana-news/rich...ver-read-miranda-rights-during-interrogation/

Yeah, those confessions may have lots of things in them - but imo we should wonder what he learned from the interrogation / overheard things if any / disclosure / rumours before his arrest etc….

His mental health at the time of his statements is also worrisome to me. He clearly wasn’t all there for whatever reason. And who knows maybe he wasn’t all there when two kids were killed, perhaps by him. Until we know a lot more, I don’t out much faith in his statements post arrest.

Moo

RA was interviewed and arrested in October, 2022 and his two month long period of 60+ confessions began a few months later, March/April of 2023. yes, the Reid technique which you site has resulted in false confessions during interrogations but even RA’s DT did not allege it was involved. The Judge has already ruled RA’s confessions were voluntary and not coerced. It will be up to the jury to weigh the legitimacy.

Repeating 61 confessions is a whole lot of times. If I was a juror, hearing that RA was spouting off about his guilt to anyone who’d listen that many times would have me wondering about his overall state of mental wellbeing including on and around Feb 13, 2017 as well. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Just doing some basic research now on false confessions actually and have learned there’s even a technique police use to get confessions called The Reid Technique which you can learn more about here: Yes, innocent people do confess | Ohio State Bar Association

Not all that far off what happened to RA imo - they brought him in and questioned him away from home / his comforts etc. They told him they knew he was guilty - https://fox59.com/indiana-news/rich...ver-read-miranda-rights-during-interrogation/

Yeah, those confessions may have lots of things in them - but imo we should wonder what he learned from the interrogation / overheard things if any / disclosure / rumours before his arrest etc….

His mental health at the time of his statements is also worrisome to me. He clearly wasn’t all there for whatever reason. And who knows maybe he wasn’t all there when two kids were killed, perhaps by him. Until we know a lot more, I don’t out much faith in his statements post arrest.

Moo

He did not confess under interrogation. All his confessions, it seems, came after he came to God too...supposedly. He even put his intent to admit his guilt in writing to the warden, freely and not under coercion (paraphrasing), so it said in the judge's ruling when all RA's confessions and incriminating statements where ruled admissible.
That's all quite remarkable and damning.
AJMO on the facts.

 

[tlcya]

19 days until trial. After that, many of our questions will be answered.

 

[photographer4]

He did not confess under interrogation. All his confessions, it seems, came after he came to God too...supposedly. He even put his intent to admit his guilt in writing to the warden, freely and not under coercion (paraphrasing), so it said in the judge's ruling when all RA's confessions and incriminating statements where ruled admissible.
That's all quite remarkable and damning.
AJMO on the facts.

Yeah I know he didn’t during interrogation. I still worry about the possible use of the Reid Technique on him and other issues noted above. It really sounds like the isolation / prison conditions drove him more than a little mental imo. Maybe the conditions plus or perhaps lack of appropriate medications they may have used on him added to his issues. Who knows. I’m hoping that we see a good amount of air tight evidence in trial!

 

[photographer4]

19 days until trial. After that, many of our questions will be answered.

We may get some answers and or theories. But I don’t know that I’ll ever really feel I understand how or why anyone could or would do this to two kids!

 

[tlcya]

[snipped] I don’t know that I’ll ever really feel I understand how or why anyone could or would do this to two kids!

SBM I don't know that we will ever get that answer, as with any child murder, it boggles the mind how anyone could do such a heinous thing

 

[shonyakay]

Well that's what his lawyer said about the clothes RA may have told him he wore that day, doesn't make it the truth, does it. I'll wait to hear RA's confessions and whether he talked about his murder clothes.

Fair enough.

My post stated "the Defense team says..." so it should be taken with a grain of salt until further notice anyways.

 

[ClearAhead]

Yeah I know he didn’t during interrogation. I still worry about the possible use of the Reid Technique on him and other issues noted above. It really sounds like the isolation / prison conditions drove him more than a little mental imo. Maybe the conditions plus or perhaps lack of appropriate medications they may have used on him added to his issues. Who knows. I’m hoping that we see a good amount of air tight evidence in trial!

No need to worry unless you have no faith whatsoever in RA’s DT.

 

[photographer4]

No need to worry unless you have no faith whatsoever in RA’s DT.

I have faith in the lawyers but not so much in the ability of jurors to critically assess the case presented / refuted. I’m not a fan of them not being allowed to know certain facts about the investigation or possible other suspects such as KK though I understand the reason why. At the end of the day, both sides are pushing a narrative. Their view of events. Whichever side is more convincing to jurors will win. And it may still end up going the wrong way. So far, the “evidence” is lacking imo but I hope it all becomes more clear at trial. Moo

 

[shonyakay]

Just doing some basic research now on false confessions actually and have learned there’s even a technique police use to get confessions called The Reid Technique which you can learn more about here: Yes, innocent people do confess | Ohio State Bar Association

Not all that far off what happened to RA imo - they brought him in and questioned him away from home / his comforts etc. They told him they knew he was guilty - https://fox59.com/indiana-news/rich...ver-read-miranda-rights-during-interrogation/

Yeah, those confessions may have lots of things in them - but imo we should wonder what he learned from the interrogation / overheard things if any / disclosure / rumours before his arrest etc….

His mental health at the time of his statements is also worrisome to me. He clearly wasn’t all there for whatever reason. And who knows maybe he wasn’t all there when two kids were killed, perhaps by him. Until we know a lot more, I don’t out much faith in his statements post arrest.

Moo

Just want to point out that it appears Holeman went after RA pretty hard while questioning him in 2022, yet RA didn't appear to be intimidated by him since he told Holeman directly that he (Holeman) was going to pay for what he's done to his (RA's) wife.

 

[shonyakay]

Just doing some basic research now on false confessions actually and have learned there’s even a technique police use to get confessions called The Reid Technique which you can learn more about here: Yes, innocent people do confess | Ohio State Bar Association

Not all that far off what happened to RA imo - they brought him in and questioned him away from home / his comforts etc. They told him they knew he was guilty - https://fox59.com/indiana-news/rich...ver-read-miranda-rights-during-interrogation/

Yeah, those confessions may have lots of things in them - but imo we should wonder what he learned from the interrogation / overheard things if any / disclosure / rumours before his arrest etc….

His mental health at the time of his statements is also worrisome to me. He clearly wasn’t all there for whatever reason. And who knows maybe he wasn’t all there when two kids were killed, perhaps by him. Until we know a lot more, I don’t out much faith in his statements post arrest.

Moo

Just want to point out that it appears Holeman went after RA pretty hard while questioning him in 2022, yet RA didn't appear to be intimidated by him since he told Holeman directly that he (Holeman) was going to pay for what he's done to his (RA's) wife.

 

[sunshineray]

Just doing some basic research now on false confessions actually and have learned there’s even a technique police use to get confessions called The Reid Technique which you can learn more about here: Yes, innocent people do confess | Ohio State Bar Association

Not all that far off what happened to RA imo - they brought him in and questioned him away from home / his comforts etc. They told him they knew he was guilty - https://fox59.com/indiana-news/rich...ver-read-miranda-rights-during-interrogation/

Yeah, those confessions may have lots of things in them - but imo we should wonder what he learned from the interrogation / overheard things if any / disclosure / rumours before his arrest etc….

His mental health at the time of his statements is also worrisome to me. He clearly wasn’t all there for whatever reason. And who knows maybe he wasn’t all there when two kids were killed, perhaps by him. Until we know a lot more, I don’t out much faith in his statements post arrest.

Moo

He did not confess under interrogation. All his confessions, it seems, came after he came to God too...supposedly. He even put his intent to admit his guilt in writing to the warden, freely and not under coercion (paraphrasing), so it said in the judge's ruling when all RA's confessions and incriminating statements where ruled admissible.
That's all quite remarkable and damning.
AJMO on the facts.

I think that maybe the blood spatter questions relate to the DT's prior claims that there was an "F" rune purposefully placed in blood on that tree.
My take is that the DT are probably asking why did the state get a blood spatter expert this late in the game, to solely try and refute the DT's claims of that supposed rune?

It was because of the claims of that supposed rune claim by the defense, MO. Otherwise the blood at the scene is self-explanatory by testing the blood, Abby was here, Libby was here, here and here. In LE's minds, after investigations, there was nothing to back up the Odinists. But the D just had to keep at it and find their sacrificial ritual killing expert. So LE called in a blood spatter expert. It makes sense to me.
AJMO