Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[FromGermany1]

DBM, because now I am completely confused. Half of the story I know, the second half I don't know - better to shut up at the moment.

 

[photographer4]

If I was a juror I'd also be wondering why his lawyers are ignoring ALL those confessions and incriminating statements, their client's wish to plead guilty. That would strike me as extremely perplexing, especially after confessing to his mother and wife. JMO

I wonder what the prosecution's opening statement is going to be like. Are his confessions going to be talked about in detail? Are we going to hear quotes? I hope someone who takes shorthand is in the courtroom, besides the court reporter.

Did he actually say he wishes to change his plea to guilty? To his lawyers I mean? Because I don’t think we know this really. He could say it to everyone else on the planet but if he doesn’t say it to his lawyers - then it may be just a game he’s playing with people’s hopes and emotions. If he instructed his lawyers outright to change his plea and they refuse to do so, that would surely be some sort of rules violation or something since they must take their instructions from him even if they don’t agree. They can advise him against it and why it’s a bad idea - but in the end, it’s his call as their client. If they feel super opposed, I think they can ask to be taken off the record and he could find someone else, but I don’t think they can flatly refuse to let him change his plea?

I’m not a lawyer so this is just kinda my thoughts and opinions - but if an actual lawyer could weigh in here I’d appreciate it! @AugustWest - any help here pls and thanks?

It almost seems as though they did actually kinda randomly pick his name. There doesn’t seem to be much to tie him to the murders. Him being at the start of the bridge doesn’t make him the killer - makes him a dude at the start of the bridge (until the state proves otherwise, and I am hoping they do!).

A bullet that may or may not match his gun is questionable evidence imo - because the it just doesn’t seem very reliable per some of the articles I’ve been reading (but maybe the state can make a persuasive air tight argument given other things they have in evidence that back this claim that it’s his bullet up).

The Field of Firearms Forensics Is Flawed

The matching of bullets to guns is subjective, and courts are starting to question it because of testimony from scientific experts

www.scientificamerican.com

Maryland Supreme Court limits testimony on bullet-matching evidence

The ruling is likely the first by a state supreme court to undercut the popular forensic technique.

reason.com

The D has told us about various things in Franks that don’t link him to the crime scene (and we recently discussed the ways they may have used tricky wording to conceal things and I acknowledge this could be the case).

He clearly has mental health issues from before the crime and post crime per testimony at the recent three day hearings. But it doesn’t make him a killer on its own (again, tricky wording and possibly the state has more to show us yet).

He made statements since his arrest ok well, as noted in earlier comments of mine he isn’t the first and won’t be the last to do so. So I hope to learn way more at trial.

It’s easy to say he’s not isolated and why not but I don’t think how he was held is reasonable by any humane standard. I don’t want his case and treatment to become precedent and I believe it’s a slippery slope when the state can hold you as they have him - without a trial; for nearly two years. Prison is fine for the convicts. Social and physical isolation for the accused - without a system of checks and balances to ensure his care / rights etc are met? I’m not ok with it. Not for him or anyone not convicted yet. Mooooooo

<modsnip - off topic>

 

[Spartygirl]

I missed this fact and find it now pretty alarming, when witnesses weren't willing to help with a sketch! What scruples did they have? Does is happen often, that witnesses don't want to create a sketch with LE?

They may have feared for their own lives.
2 Young girls MURDERED

Small town, news gets out that some witnesses volunteered sketches.
Nobody knew how that could have happened, why it happened or WHO it was that did these Horrific murders to 2 young teenagers.
People get scared.

While I, myself, would provide sketches willingly, some would be hesitant in doing so.
( Family members worried, advising not to, fearing for their lives and ours if we spoke out, etc and this is my experience from a murder that happened next door. We want to assist LE, but there is a deranged murderer running around.)


Residents live in FEAR !!! IIRC, one resident moved to another state

Residents living in fear as 'Snapchat killer' remains at large

Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, vanished while hiking in an isolated beauty spot in Indiana, US, and their bodies were found on Valentine's Day

www.mirror.co.uk

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

It almost seems as though they did actually kinda randomly pick his name. There doesn’t seem to be much to tie him to the murders. Him being at the start of the bridge doesn’t make him the killer - makes him a dude at the start of the bridge (until the state proves otherwise, and I am hoping they do!).

A bullet that may or may not match his gun is questionable evidence imo - because the it just doesn’t seem very reliable per some of the articles I’ve been reading (but maybe the state can make a persuasive air tight argument given other things they have in evidence that back this claim that it’s his bullet up).

The Field of Firearms Forensics Is Flawed

The matching of bullets to guns is subjective, and courts are starting to question it because of testimony from scientific experts

www.scientificamerican.com

Maryland Supreme Court limits testimony on bullet-matching evidence

The ruling is likely the first by a state supreme court to undercut the popular forensic technique.

reason.com

The D has told us about various things in Franks that don’t link him to the crime scene (and we recently discussed the ways they may have used tricky wording to conceal things and I acknowledge this could be the case).

He clearly has mental health issues from before the crime and post crime per testimony at the recent three day hearings. But it doesn’t make him a killer on its own (again, tricky wording and possibly the state has more to show us yet).

He made statements since his arrest ok well, as noted in earlier comments of mine he isn’t the first and won’t be the last to do so. So I hope to learn way more at trial.

It’s easy to say he’s not isolated and why not but I don’t think how he was held is reasonable by any humane standard. I don’t want his case and treatment to become precedent and I believe it’s a slippery slope when the state can hold you as they have him - without a trial; for nearly two years. Prison is fine for the convicts. Social and physical isolation for the accused - without a system of checks and balances to ensure his care / rights etc are met? I’m not ok with it. Not for him or anyone not convicted yet. Mooooooo

I'm curious, will there ever be a time that his own words convince anyone that he committed two child murders? Will the monumental number of times he has confessed ever convince anyone that he killed those two girls? Will his confessing his guilt to his own beloved family members ever convince anyone he's a double child murderer?
I've heard people say, oh he read the discovery, he talked to his lawyers, he learned the facts of the case and falsely confessed. Why? The ONLY reason I could see not to believe so many admissions of guilt would be if that someone confessing was 100% certifiably insane. They would have to not be of sound mind to make any decisions if they were acting in that manner. Yet, his lawyers have not made that claim or had their client evaluated. Why? Just common sense would tell you, if you don't believe he's telling the truth, he needs intervention. The man has to have been certifiable, no? Are we going to see any proof that he was seriously evaluated for his abnormally bizarre behavior of confessing and insinuating his guilt so many times? It doesn't seem so to me, which leads me to believe he was of sound mind. He may have been upset at his surroundings, his lack of freedom and of his past actions but he was of sound mind. As I've asked before, why shouldn't we believe him? Maybe his lawyers will come up with some explanations besides his being incarcerated but they will mostly likely not have been documented by them at the specific time they supposedly occured. All I've heard so far from them has been after the fact spin. AJMO and rhetorical questions.

 

[photographer4]

I'm curious, will there ever be a time that his own words convince anyone that he committed two child murders? Will the monumental number of times he has confessed ever convince anyone that he killed those two girls? Will his confessing his guilt to his own beloved family members ever convince anyone he's a double child murderer?
I've heard people say, oh he read the discovery, he talked to his lawyers, he learned the facts of the case and falsely confessed. Why? The ONLY reason I could see not to believe so many admissions of guilt would be if that someone confessing was 100% certifiably insane. They would have to not be of sound mind to make any decisions if they were acting in that manner. Yet, his lawyers have not made that claim or had their client evaluated. Why? Just common sense would tell you, if you don't believe he's telling the truth, he needs intervention. The man has to have been certifiable, no? Are we going to see any proof that he was seriously evaluated for his abnormally bizarre behavior of confessing and insinuating his guilt so many times? It doesn't seem so to me, which leads me to believe he was of sound mind. He may have been upset at his surroundings, his lack of freedom and of his past actions but he was of sound mind. As I've asked before, why shouldn't we believe him? Maybe his lawyers will come up with some explanations besides his being incarcerated but they will mostly likely not have been documented by them at the specific time they supposedly occured. All I've heard so far from them has been after the fact spin. AJMO and rhetorical questions.

Here are some links about false confessions that may help you to understand why one might make a false confession even if they’re not certifiable:

The Psychology of False Confessions

Why would an innocent person, in his right mind, confess to a crime that he did not commit? The answer may surprise you.

www.psychologytoday.com

The Psychology and Power of False Confessions

On July 8, 1997, Bill Bosko returned to his home in Norfolk, Virginia, after a week at sea to find his wife murdered in their bedroom. A few hours later, Bosko’s …

www.psychologicalscience.org

Coerced to Confess: The Psychology of False Confessions - Behavioral Scientist

Why did the they confess to crimes they did not commit? Why did these confessions trump all other evidence in the case? Why did the judge, jury, and DA place so much emphasis on the confessions, despite conflicting DNA and non-existent physical evidence?

behavioralscientist.org

In the last link they discuss the Central Park five case. Very horrifying what happened to all the accused who were convicted even though they had dna and it wasn’t belonging to any of them and yet - they confessed!?

A quote from the last link: “I have found that lay people have an easier time understanding why someone would kill themselves…than they do why someone would confess to a crime he did not commit.”

 

[somequestions]

Do you happen to have a link that shows neither BB or SC wanted to make the sketches?

I don’t believe this because one of them was adamant that the man SHE saw was NOT RA. Infact, she was certain that it was a young man she saw with hair. She demanded they release HER sketch because she was sure the man in the original sketch wasn’t the man she saw.

I googled and it was BB who wasn’t happy LE had not released the sketch of the man SHE said she saw: https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

Around page 106/7 details what she said and that she asserted HER sketch was a “10/10” for the guy she saw…

Yes, this confuses me too. At trial, what if BB gets on the stand and says she cannot be sure the man she saw on platform 1 of the Monon High Bridge is Richard Allen?

But I also realize that 61 confessions is going to be very hard to overcome. If BB does get on the stand and say the person she saw on platform 1 was Richard Allen, that is going to be very powerful testimony for the jury to at least place him on the Monon High Bridge around the time of the crime.

Most of the time asking the jury to go the crime scene probably would not be a good idea because it provides emotion as to the victims and this area being the last place they were alive. But in this particular case, I do not think the defense needs to prove someone else did it. They only need to prove that someone else could have done it. Because they do not seem to have any other defense, it seems like the right thing to do to ask the jury to look at the evidence and see if they think it makes sense.

It all depends on how much weight the jury gives to the confessions and the details contained within them. If one of those confessions is Richard Allen saying he is the person in the video, he is done and will almost certainly be convicted. Prosecution might end up getting a conviction anyway.

 

[ClearAhead]

If I was a juror I'd also be wondering why his lawyers are ignoring ALL those confessions and incriminating statements, their client's wish to plead guilty. That would strike me as extremely perplexing, especially after confessing to his mother and wife. JMO

I wonder what the prosecution's opening statement is going to be like. Are his confessions going to be talked about in detail? Are we going to hear quotes? I hope someone who takes shorthand is in the courtroom, besides the court reporter.

I wonder what the jury will think about that too. As the DT can’t blame RA’s confessions on his incarceration will they dare to open the door to his prior history of mental issues including the MDD diagnosis which in turn can cause psychosis involving hallucinations and delusions? But blaming the confessions on delusions - he only thought he was guilty - can also backfire by feeding the prosecution a perfect theory involving delusion. Upon sighting the girls his anger was fueled by his deluded thinking that the girls were making fun of him and he was going to make them regret it.

MOO and JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Posts have been removed. Please stop with the idea that 60+ confessions were coerced or the result of the Reid Technique. That is simply speculation that is not based on any known fact.

Judge Gull has ruled RA was not coerced into making the confessions.

From: Jury can hear Richard Allen's alleged confessions to Delphi murders

Prosecutors say Allen confessed to the killings of Williams and German to multiple people, including his family members, prison guards, other inmates, a prison warden and a prison psychologist.

{...}

In her ruling, Gull wrote "…statements given to the defendant's family members were voluntary, not coerced by any State action, and were not made under threats of violence, or improper influence."

[...]

Referring to some of Allen’s other alleged confessions, Gull also said, "The Court finds statements given by the defendant to Dr. Wala, the Warden, inmates, guards, medical personnel, mental health professionals, and law enforcement personnel were not coerced, were voluntary, were not the result of interrogation by the State or its actors, nor the product of his confinement and, therefore, denied the defendant's Motion to Suppress Statements…"

 

[Vern]

D-18 ....

 

[ClearAhead]

Yes, this confuses me too. At trial, what if BB gets on the stand and says she cannot be sure the man she saw on platform 1 of the Monon High Bridge is Richard Allen?

But I also realize that 61 confessions is going to be very hard to overcome. If BB does get on the stand and say the person she saw on platform 1 was Richard Allen, that is going to be very powerful testimony for the jury to at least place him on the Monon High Bridge around the time of the crime.

Most of the time asking the jury to go the crime scene probably would not be a good idea because it provides emotion as to the victims and this area being the last place they were alive. But in this particular case, I do not think the defense needs to prove someone else did it. They only need to prove that someone else could have done it. Because they do not seem to have any other defense, it seems like the right thing to do to ask the jury to look at the evidence and see if they think it makes sense.

It all depends on how much weight the jury gives to the confessions and the details contained within them. If one of those confessions is Richard Allen saying he is the person in the video, he is done and will almost certainly be convicted. Prosecution might end up getting a conviction anyway.

I’m not convinced eye witness statements/testimony will be key evidence considering nobody recognized the man they saw, nor did anyone witness the actual murders taking place. Also eye witness testimony is known to be somewhat unreliable. But that doesn’t mean this is a losing case for the P.

I think RA’s incriminated himself deep enough, not only by the confessions but what he said during his LE interviews, that eye witness testimony will become secondary. Very compelling will be the testimony of DD. When did he interview RA and how did their contact come about? What’s his procedure including the likelihood he recorded the 1:30 to 3:30pm time incorrectly? Who filed the tip improperly using his street address as RA’s last name?

RA can’t have known at the time of the interaction with DD that LE would later determine the deaths took place between 2:14 and 3:30pm. In his claim he didn’t see the girls, it appears his intent was to move the time of the murders to before 1:30 or after 3:30pm. Then years later after LE are more forthcoming with details and RA realizes he unknowingly was videoed by Libby on the bridge, so he has to move the time up to between noon and 1:30pm. It’ll be interesting to hear him tell LE how he knew that was the correct time, all those years later. In addition to the confessions, his own admissions will be critical in the jury’s decision. MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, this confuses me too. At trial, what if BB gets on the stand and says she cannot be sure the man she saw on platform 1 of the Monon High Bridge is Richard Allen?

RSBM - I think these two witnesses will say the person they saw is the guy in the video.

Whether they recognised RA years later seems a difficult question IMO - would this even be admissible unless done under controlled conditions?

 

[girlhasnoname]

We may get some answers and or theories. But I don’t know that I’ll ever really feel I understand how or why anyone could or would do this to two kids!

It takes a sick mind and a sick soul to do what was done to these two kids who have names, Abby and Libby.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Just want to point out that it appears Holeman went after RA pretty hard while questioning him in 2022, yet RA didn't appear to be intimidated by him since he told Holeman directly that he (Holeman) was going to pay for what he's done to his (RA's) wife.

False bravado by RA, since he knew LE was on him from the Oct 13th interview. He had time to work up his indignation from then until Oct 26th when they arrested him.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

to me if he was held in a cell, and not free to come and go at all - thats isolation. Just because he could call people doesn’t mean they took his calls. Those “trustees” - I lack well, trust for. The doc visiting? Still I wouldn’t trust them tbh. The staff don’t care for the inmates in the way a doc you choose would imo. How big was the cell? Maybe the size of a bathroom? Or a smallll bedroom? Daylight access? What aside a tablet did he have to occupy the time? Tablet and what a bible? How noisy is the place? How could he drown out the noise if at all to find rest or feel safe? Maybe it’s just me - but the inability to even leave my house to go shopping for a change of scenery was isolating and depressing! Not eat your poop level but still….. not an experience I would want to relive for two weeks let alone two years worth! And I have the creature comforts of home!! Moooooooi

Yeah, that's typical conditions of anyone who is a Defendant awaiting trial for a double homicide or really any crime across the US being detained until trial in jail or DOC.

Being incarcerated means you do not have the ability to move freely about. There are probably hundreds of thousands of detainees awaiting trial or serving their time that experience these exact same conditions. It's called jail or prison for a reason.

Serous question, how would you propose to keep them incarcerated?

jmo

 

[Salah11]

D-18 ....

It’s my birthday on the 14th, so it would be nice to have the trial go ahead and start on time as a gift.
But I just believe there will be a spanner in the works. But fingers crossed, I'm completely wrong.

Let’s not delay justice for the girls and their families.

 

[FromGermany1]

Just want to point out that it appears Holeman went after RA pretty hard while questioning him in 2022, yet RA didn't appear to be intimidated by him since he told Holeman directly that he (Holeman) was going to pay for what he's done to his (RA's) wife.

RA is a particularly loving and caring husband, isn't he? Maybe he should have kept his hands off little girls, if his wife is so important to him.
I would like to know, whether RA during his marriage of 25 years more than one time confessed to his wife things, he had done, and whether she always refused to listen to that ....

 

[FromGermany1]

It’s my birthday on the 14th, so it would be nice to have the trial go ahead and start on time as a gift.
But I just believe there will be a spanner in the works. But fingers crossed, I'm completely wrong.

Let’s not delay justice for the girls and their families.

I have similar thoughts as a Libra star sign. A gift would be nice.

 

[Megnut]

They may have feared for their own lives.
2 Young girls MURDERED

Small town, news gets out that some witnesses volunteered sketches.
Nobody knew how that could have happened, why it happened or WHO it was that did these Horrific murders to 2 young teenagers.
People get scared.

While I, myself, would provide sketches willingly, some would be hesitant in doing so.
( Family members worried, advising not to, fearing for their lives and ours if we spoke out, etc and this is my experience from a murder that happened next door. We want to assist LE, but there is a deranged murderer running around.)


Residents live in FEAR !!! IIRC, one resident moved to another state

Residents living in fear as 'Snapchat killer' remains at large

Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, vanished while hiking in an isolated beauty spot in Indiana, US, and their bodies were found on Valentine's Day

www.mirror.co.uk

JMO

Agreed.

FWIW, I could see being reticent to lock down a description if I were BB, not because I didn't want to cooperate or was fearful, but because having only a fuzzy memory/view of a person, I would feel like I wouldn't be able to do a good job with it. I'd want it to be right. And how do you do it right if you feel like you only saw him for a second, from a distance, didn't know it would be important at the time, and were probably thinking about a million other things at the time?

And yet, she agreed to do it. And she was spot on in the ways that matter most. Lone male, bulky, locked down by the fixed facts of her timeline. Even without Libby's video, her testimony and sketch nails RA.

She gave a broad age range, the high end not far off. LE, when publishing the photo, reminded people the individual might appear younger than his age.

I imagine LE got a variety of descriptions that day. Of individuals who had decent reason to be there that day and were not involved. Earlier and later in the day. LE had to sift through them. It's likely IMO that BB's sketch lost priority with the discovery of Libby's video. Photo over sketch.

But later, in 2019, became a fresh offering because, due to BB's known timeline, her BG was pinned on the bridge very close to 2 pm. The man she saw had to be the same man Libby recorded. Which is why LE could say, with confidence at that press conference, the two sketches are the same man.

Black clothes, blue clothes, poofy hair or not, all the prime witnesses (with verified timestamps) saw the same one man who was captured in Libby's video (with a verified timestamp), ordering Abby and Libby down the hill.

It can't be said enough. Libby videotaped a capital crime in progress, hers, theirs. The man, the threat (the voice, the presence of a gun, reaffirmed with the discovery of a unchambered cartridge), truly outstanding work.

If she had been a witness and not a victim, she would have been lauded with a community award IMO, for her wherewithall and bravery.

Instead, RA brutally murdered her. He stole her life.

He doesn't get to take away her wherewithall and bravery.

JMO

 

[shonyakay]

RA is a particularly loving and caring husband, isn't he? Maybe he should have kept his hands off little girls, if his wife is so important to him.
I would like to know, whether RA during his marriage of 25 years more than one time confessed to his wife things, he had done, and whether she always refused to listen to that ....

Yep and what's up with RA telling his wife if it gets to be too much for her he will tell them (LE) everything?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Here is some general information about Westville Correctional Facility; RA was housed in WCU.

• R dorm (WCA) holds 381 minimum security inmates. It provides the labor force used outside the secured perimeter and in the Lion’sClub Eyeglass Recycling Program.
• WCU holds 110 maximum security inmates assigned to long-term restricted housing plus110 inmates in disciplinary segregation.
• The General Services Complex (GSC) operates the Re-Entry Program, Admission &Orientation Unit, and Notre Dame/HolyCross college program
• The Education Complex (EC) provides literacy through vocational education, and housesover 360 offenders in the Therapeutic Community (TC) substance abuse program.
• The Industrial Complex (IC) contains PEN Products which makes , pallets and recycles surplus CDs/DVDs and operates PLUS - a faith and character based program.
• Inmates assigned to GSC, EC and IC are primarily medium security

https://www.in.gov/idoc/files/WCC-Facts-and-Figures-Brochure.pdf