Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[photographer4]

Not sure. I do know that a still picture of BG from LG's phone was first released, February 15, 2017, the day after the discovery of the bodies.

No one knew where it came from at that time until the press conference where they mention LG captured this man on her phone.

So potentially, the witnesses who helped with sketches could have been influenced by having seen an image of BG produced from LG’s phone?

 

[Vern]

Not sure. I do know that a still picture of BG from LG's phone was first released, February 15, 2017, the day after the discovery of the bodies.

No one knew where it came from at that time until the press conference where they mention LG captured this man on her phone.

I have a theory on this:

IMO, after RA was questioned on 13th October 2022, LE pulled the "Bridge Guy" witnesses in and showed them a photo line up that included a photo of RA (possibly using circa 2017 driver's license photos?). I think that the both of them identified him from that line-up and ergo why the Defence got the answers they did to their "hypothetial what-if" questions they didn't like the answers to (the insistance that it was RA whom they saw sayeth the individual being questioned).

Of course, no one knew RA had even been questioned about the deaths of the two girls - Abby & Libby - nor that he had been taken into custody until the news broke on October 28th 2022.

Oct. 28, 2022: Multiple sources told NewsNation local affiliate WXIN that a man was booked in the Carroll County, Indiana, jail in connection with the Delphi homicide investigation. The outlet reported that the man, Richard Allen, was moved to a state facility for his safety.

The witnesses did not see his photo on TV, or in the media, in a paper etc ... nada prior to making any idenfication of him IMO.

If this holds to be the case, the Defence is certainly able to ask the actual witnesses upon their cross-examination whether or not LE somehow or other 'influenced' them into identifying RA as the individual they saw, but I'm thinking they won't like th answers they get to that question either.

All IMO of course. We'll find out at trial!

 

[Gerrymd8]

I vaguely recall her mention a resemblance as well but I don’t recall the source.

Well for sure, BBP.

 

[Gerrymd8]

So potentially, the witnesses who helped with sketches could have been influenced by having seen an image of BG produced from LG’s phone?

Absolutely not. Her information came BEFORE the photo came out.

 

[tlcya]

IMO the questions asked of Mullin in dep were not questions he could reasonably be expected to answer. They are asking him to SPECULATE if certain factors around the eye witnesses on the trails that day were to change does he think it would be fatal to the prosecution's case. IMO the below questions are not appropriately directed to Mullin. (recall these are hypothetical "we asked him something like this or that questions" because they do not even have the transcript to quote or cite with accuracy yet).

the motion to compel states the following was asked of Mullin:
a. “Is your timeline and theory of the case fatal to the prosecution’s case against Richard Allen if the person Betsy Blair observed on the bridge is not Richard Allen?
b. Is your timeline and theory of the case fatal to the prosecution’s case against Richard Allen if the vehicle Betsy Blair observed at the CPS building was not Richard Allen’s vehicle?”
c. If Betsy Blair observed one person and Sarah Carbaugh observed an entirely different person, is the prosecution’s timeline and theory of the case as it relates to Richard Allen fatally flawed?
d. If neither Betsy Blair, nor Sarah Carbaugh observed Richard Allen on February 13, 2017, is the State’s timeline and theory of the case as it relates to Richard Allen fatally flawed?

IMO these are questions only the jury can answer at the end of the day and the Delphi chief of police is not the person they should have been posed to. JMO
Motion to Compel Answers to Certified Questions

 

[Vern]

Absolutely not. Her information came BEFORE the photo came out.

Absolutely it did. And they both observed him in the flesh rather than a smidget of a second captured on still frame in a photo or video.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Interesting then that they answered questions but the Defence didn't like the answers they gave to the defence's "hypotheticals".

A hypothetical is not the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth ... it is rather a request for an individual being questioned to make a - what's that word again?? - a supposition.

Ironic.

If I'm reading the motion accurately, Holeman, Liggett and Galipeau did not answer the questions asked and none of them were hypothetical.

Mullin did what I call "tap dancing around the issue." I believe the D had the option to ask "yes" or "no" questions and those should not have been hard to answer.

Do you think Mullin is so out of the loop regarding the case that he doesn't know exactly what the timeline is dependent upon? I'm confused as to why he didn't just answer "No" to all the questions.
After all, they have all this evidence...

Rather than answer the simple yes or no question, Mullin repeatedly made conclusory statements to defense counsel that Richard Allen was the man that Betsy Blair observed, and was the man Sarah Carbaugh observed etc…

Based on what we know, what would your answers to those questions be?

MOO

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[Vern]

...
Based on what we know, what would your answers to those questions be?

MOO

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

Respectfully snipped by me.

As his attorney:

"Objection - calls for speculation".

That will have to suffice to answer your question.

 

[AugustWest]

Respectfully snipped by me.

As his attorney:

"Objection - calls for speculation".

That will have to suffice to answer your question.

You are free to question a witness about their professional opinion on a matter. Overruled.

 

[Vern]

You are free to question a witness about their professional opinion on a matter. Overruled.

Answer as myself: "No need for me to speculate, the witnesses have identified the individual they saw as being Richard Allen".

 

[FrostedGlass]

Standard 3-1.3 The Client of the Prosecutor​

The prosecutor generally serves the public and not any particular government agency, law enforcement officer or unit, witness or victim. When investigating or prosecuting a criminal matter, the prosecutor does not represent law enforcement personnel who have worked on the matter and such law enforcement personnel are not the prosecutor’s clients. The public’s interests and views should be determined by the chief prosecutor and designated assistants in the jurisdiction.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/criminal_justice/standards/ProsecutionFunctionFourthEdition/#:~:text=for%20such%20activities.-,Standard%203%2D1.3%20The%20Client%20of%20the%20Prosecutor,or%20unit%2C%20witness%20or%20victim.

OK. I'm still not sure.

So they aren't Nick's clients and as such, he had no authority to tell them to dummy up? OTOH, he believes it's in the public's best interests to advise them to not answer certain questions?

 

[AugustWest]

OK. I'm still not sure.

So they aren't Nick's clients and as such, he had no authority to tell them to dummy up? OTOH, he believes it's in the public's best interests to advise them to not answer certain questions?

He's not their attorney, so he shouldn't be telling anyone to refuse to answer a question. The proper procedure would be to object, state his reasoning, then inform the witness to answer.

 

[girlhasnoname]

IMO the questions asked of Mullin in dep were not questions he could reasonably be expected to answer. They are asking him to SPECULATE if certain factors around the eye witnesses on the trails that day were to change does he think it would be fatal to the prosecution's case. IMO the below questions are not appropriately directed to Mullin. (recall these are hypothetical "we asked him something like this or that questions" because they do not even have the transcript to quote or cite with accuracy yet).

the motion to compel states the following was asked of Mullin:
a. “Is your timeline and theory of the case fatal to the prosecution’s case against Richard Allen if the person Bets y Blair observed on the bridge is not Richard Allen?
b. Is your timeline and theory of the case fatal to the prosecution’s case against Richard Allen if the vehicle Betsy Blair observed at the CPS building was not Richard Allen’s vehicle?”
c. If Betsy Blair observed one person and Sarah Carbaugh observed an entirely different person, is the prosecution’s timeline and theory of the case as it relates to Richard Allen fatally flawed?
d. If neither Betsy Blair, nor Sarah Carbaugh observed Richard Allen on February 13, 2017, is the State’s timeline and theory of the case as it relates to Richard Allen fatally flawed?

IMO these are questions only the jury can answer at the end of the day and the Delphi chief of police is not the person they should have been posed to. JMO
Motion to Compel Answers to Certified Questions

THANK YOU! These were questions beyond his scope of knowledge. He's a deputy, not a lawyer, how does he know what could or would fatally flaw the State's theory of the case when he doesn't know what the State's case is?

In the 'Hypothetical World' the D mentions, Abby and Libby would have been able to take their best friend talk and walk across the MHB and return home to their families as planned without being viciously murdered by a monster.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

They may have feared for their own lives.
2 Young girls MURDERED

Small town, news gets out that some witnesses volunteered sketches.

Oh yes! I didn't think of it, when I wrote my post.

 

[FrostedGlass]

He's not their attorney, so he shouldn't be telling anyone to refuse to answer a question. The proper procedure would be to object, state his reasoning, then inform the witness to answer.

Thank you. I read this quote below and thought I had it right but then got confused. The more I read, the less I know.
(snip)
If the deponent is not the attorney's client, inform the deponent that the attorney does not have the legal authority to instruct anyone other than his or her clients not to answer. Tell the deponent to answer the question. If the deponent refuses, ask the Reporter to certify the question as above.

Depositions

 

[FrostedGlass]

THANK YOU! These were questions beyond his scope of knowledge. He's a deputy, not a lawyer, how does he know what could or would fatally flaw the State's theory of the case when he doesn't know what the State's case is?

In the 'Hypothetical World' the D mentions, Abby and Libby would have been able to take their best friend talk and walk across the MHB and return home to their families as planned without being viciously murdered by a monster.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

JMO

IMO Mullin would know these things.

Jan 8, 2020

Delphi’s Police Chief, Steve Mullin, resigned from the city position effective Jan. 7. He will be employed by Carroll County in the Prosecutor’s Office as a criminal investigator.

McCain promoted to Delphi Police Chief - Carroll County Comet

Delphi’s Police Chief, Steve Mullin, resigned from the city position effective Jan. 7. He will be employed by Carroll County in the Prosecutor’s Office as a criminal investigator. Delphi Mayor Shane Evans promoted Sgt. Brook McCain to be the next police chief. Chief McCain joined the Delphi...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[ClearAhead]

Aside from the confessions, I’d forgotten the DT had asked earlier for certain records to be suppressed. Does anyone recall the Judge’s ruling? Perhaps reading this is why I’ve wondered what could be incriminating with his ‘records related to work ’.

Unsealed documents reveal new details in Delphi murders

Newly released court documents in the murder case of two Delphi, Ind. girls are providing new details, including what investigators discovered at the crime scene and a supposed confession from Richard M. Allen, the man who is charged with the girls’ murder.

www.nbcchicago.com

“Allen’s attorneys have filed motions to suppress certain evidence in the case, including his mental health records, any interviews he had done while in jail and records related to his work.”

 

[AugustWest]

Answer as myself: "No need for me to speculate, the witnesses have identified the individual they saw as being Richard Allen".

Cue the defense doing the following:

(1) Objection - hearsay. What the witnesses said was an out of court statement used to prove the matter asserted; and

(2) Call both witnesses to see exactly what they said. If what they testify to differs from your LE witness's answer, then the prosecution just shot down their own witness's credibility.

 

[girlhasnoname]

IMO Mullin would know these things.

Jan 8, 2020

Delphi’s Police Chief, Steve Mullin, resigned from the city position effective Jan. 7. He will be employed by Carroll County in the Prosecutor’s Office as a criminal investigator.

McCain promoted to Delphi Police Chief - Carroll County Comet

Delphi’s Police Chief, Steve Mullin, resigned from the city position effective Jan. 7. He will be employed by Carroll County in the Prosecutor’s Office as a criminal investigator. Delphi Mayor Shane Evans promoted Sgt. Brook McCain to be the next police chief. Chief McCain joined the Delphi...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

IMO Maybe or maybe he wasn't privy to the entire theory of the State's case. IDK

 

[girlhasnoname]

Aside from the confessions, I’d forgotten the DT had asked earlier for certain records to be suppressed. Does anyone recall the Judge’s ruling? Perhaps reading this is why I’ve wondered what could be incriminating with his ‘records related to work ’.

Unsealed documents reveal new details in Delphi murders

Newly released court documents in the murder case of two Delphi, Ind. girls are providing new details, including what investigators discovered at the crime scene and a supposed confession from Richard M. Allen, the man who is charged with the girls’ murder.

www.nbcchicago.com

“Allen’s attorneys have filed motions to suppress certain evidence in the case, including his mental health records, any interviews he had done while in jail and records related to his work.”

Judge Gull allowed the State to have access to RA's employment records for CVS. I'm not sure about other employers.

MOO