In another thread BondJamesBond mentioned that he thought the chloroform was a product of decomp - a theory I tend to agree with - however, I mentioned that I had been told that "experts" had determined the levels were too high to be just the product of decomp - and he suggested that I bring this up in the chloroform thread so here I am.
The person who told me that is not on WS but I think I recall it being discussed here too - only some of that discussion was before certain document dumps. So I'm wondering if there was clarification in any of the doc dumps that settled this - were the levels too high to be product of decomp? What are your thoughts on this argument now?
And BJB, I hope you stop by to weigh in on this as well........
Sorry to take so long, aafromaa. Thanks for bringing it over here.
The "unusually high levels of chloroform" were mentioned in this LIBS report from the body farm, pg 27 and again on pg 29:
http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1024/17794795.pdf
it states the amount of chloroform is much higher than usually found during decomp.
Big TY, treeseeker! :clap: I haven't been able to stay current on the case and your link sent me right where I wanted to go.
No, you're right.
Chloroform is a decomp product. However, it is not found in the levels that were present in the car.
"Aye, there's the rub". :thumb:
First - lemme say I'm not trying to convince anyone...just doin' what I can to help w/ what little I do understand :bang: We have WS that are much more qualified than I to speak to the details (where'd Bev go anyway?). They can chime in and fix anything I post that needs it.
I also don't think anything we post here is going to settle this definitively either...just based on the information we have...and how we have to parse words & expert opinions, but, lemme take a shot anyway.
1) Don't be too concerned about where you can find chloroform in day-to-day items as a source for this trunk event. The levels of chloroform in the trunk were high enough to be commented on as distinguishing, which wouldn't be achieveable by things that we can interact with (e.g. dryer sheets, pool water, etc.). You could pack the trunk full of dryer sheets, or fill it w/ pool water and you'd never get the amount of chlorine necessary. Just can't get there from here.
2) Everything is relative. The scientists are comparing the amount of chloroform present relative to other things (e.g. its concentration in air) AND relative to what SHOULD be there. Well the SHOULD part gets confusing, 'cause first they gotta show that there are 2 "shoulds". First, they have to compare things they find in Casey's trunk to what they think should be there if NO human decomposition took place - remember that is their first objective - priority#1!!! Did a HDE take place in that trunk?!? Hell yes, it did. Conclusive.
3) Speculating about whether of not the concentrations and components they find tell us anything more (e.g. cause of death) is tougher...cause
there is no database on how much chloroform SHOULD be in the trunk for human decomposition events. "Experts" have commented in the media on their opinion...and that's fine...just realize we all have opinions and these aren't scientifically proven conclusions...just opinions to consider + and -. To prove what the level of chloroform SHOULD be in the trunk just isn't gonna happen. It takes too much data to prove it statistically...we don't have it...not gonna get it.
Of course Arped is going to comment on the chloroform observation. Its only good practice to bring this up as remarkable. Wish he had commented that he expected to see some (he was silent on that). I believe his comment is prolly fueling the notion that this was somehow chloroform that was pure/pharmaceutical grade, etc. However, as was treated by Dog2Mom (IIRC) in the emails thread, GC's are measuring the relative amounts of the compounds...not the form that they are in....so Arped wasn't looking at information that told him it was pure chloroform in the trunk...just looking at an amount much higher than 'background' that suggested to him it should be investigated further.
None of this explains the computer search on making chloroform. I know, I know. So...this certainly leaves room to consider that the chloroform present was in addition to that which originated from the HDE...just leaves the door open. Just one hell of a coincidence IMHO and that's just one opinion. We read in the emails 'bout the chloroform info being released and Arped getting some grief. IMHO, this grief coming from his colleagues was prolly over the notion that the chloroform was esp. high. IMHO, LE wanted to turn a family member quickly in this case and thought the computer searches might do the trick. They took a gamble and lost. And as a result...we have this confusion over what is prolly a coincidence..yet...won't hurt SA's case any either.
The blanket soaked in decomp 'standard' that was obtained...well...IIRC, it was encapsulated somehow, but, consider that the child was in the trunk in an arid environment for a much, much, much longer time than Caylee
Chloroform is very volatile. I'm not surprised that - even if they took every precaution to preserve - the level of chloroform remaining in this blanket sample was nil/NDA. Also noteworthy, that the child was wrapped in a blanket vs. Caylee (I believe) prolly spent time in the trunk in the plastic bag(s). This means Caylee's decomp was likely under even more anaerobic (oxygen-deprived) (vs. aerobic) conditions than the blanket standard. Too much detail needed here, but, early stages of decomp (owing to internal organs, etc. encapsulated by the covering of skin, etc.) is anaerobic. In Caylee's case...being inside a plastic bag ensures anaerobic conditions ++ IMHO.
Human decomp in anaerobic conditions INCREASES the amount of chloroform generated vs. aerobic conditions. So...one thing to consider in all of this is when 'experts' comment on what amount/concentration of chloroform SHOULD be present (a) they don't have a database to compare the results against to make this statement statistically, and (b) they may not be taking into account the ++ anaerobic conditions Caylee's HDE experienced since esp. media 'experts' were commenting on this BEFORE Caylee was found (e.g. didn't know about the plastic bags).
4) Read this exceprt closely from page 27 of link treeseeker provided:
"Of particular interest is the large concentration of chloroform (not a common ingredient in commercial products) and the presence of sulfur containing compounds in the Florida trunk carpet sample which are particularly characteristic of decompositional events."
B & Color BM for emphasis. Choice of wording & punctuation leaves room for interpretation, of course, but, this is 'bout as good as it gets.
My apologies for ramblin' and poorly organized post...just gettin' it out there FWIW. There are plenty of holes to poke in this...just consider that it is intended to help, not convince.