Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #35

[Mani]

Well what I would like to know is this - if Allison was killed at the house as reported by msm - then wouldn't there be blood there - but I can't remember reading in msm about any blood at the house - and if she was bleeding in the house from injuries sustained there - wouldn't GBC have taken precautions in the car so as the blood was not found there?

It doesn't add up to me..........IMO

 

[J-Diggety]

I am still somewhat confused regarding the blood evidence. From where on the body would the blood have been from if there was no evidence of injury other than a chipped tooth. Which is indicative that there was no visible sign of any external injuries. Also, how does blood appear on both wheel hubs but not in the centre of the vehicle. The use of a tarp does not fully explain that to me because again at what area of the body would the blood come from so that it would leave it on both wheel hubs.

Im not convinced all the marsk are actually blood. other substances will show as blood.

 

[Mousie]

I imagine the blood is from maybe a nose or mouth injury neither of which would be still visible injuries after so long in the elements

If the blood is from the nose or mouth that doesn't explain how it got on both the left and right wheel hub.

 

[Maigret]

If the blood is from the nose or mouth that doesn't explain how it got on both the left and right wheel hub.

I know unless it was on someone's hands - it was referred to as a 'smear'

 

[Mousie]

I know unless it was on someone's hands - it was referred to as a 'smear'

That is what is so confusing. The picture of the back of the vehicle shows the wheel hubs with the spray on it and with the following caption "Picture of the inside of the boot of Gerard Baden-Clay's car, where police allege they found Allison's blood." Unless the statement in the paper was incorrect and somewhat misleading.

 

[DrWatson]

Well what I would like to know is this - if Allison was killed at the house as reported by msm - then wouldn't there be blood there - but I can't remember reading in msm about any blood at the house - and if she was bleeding in the house from injuries sustained there - wouldn't GBC have taken precautions in the car so as the blood was not found there?

It doesn't add up to me..........IMO

That's what I've been saying for several threads

 

[itsthevibe]

pulpfiction
Registered User Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 158

I agree with what Bayside said earlier regarding how much we say about the children. However, try to read between my lines perhaps children are treated EXTREMELY carefully. I can neither confirm, nor deny obviously, who was home and what, if anything was heard. Children's reactions, without words, speak volumes. And when a child speaks we all listen VERY carefully. Particularly in cases like these.

In addition to GEANIE, I hold the same opinion as Dr Watson, and some others that information given regarding the autopsy or post mortem, whatever you wish to call it, has been somewhat guarded it seems thus far. I do know results are pending. I do believe, like many, there was a history of 'unsavory aggression'. I do also believe that the case is very, very sad and beyond that I can say little else at this point. It is very hard on children. Kids at school get wind of things, and whether now or later the protection we try to envelope these children in is penetrated. What happened to their mother is sickening. By that I don't necessarily mean in the most gruesome thing you can imagine type thing but it is sickening. There is a reason why this is a high profile case is my belief and that is because violent crimes against women, mothers, daughters, friends etc. like Allison are just so awful because it was so unnecessary. This did NOT have to happen. And her girls did not have to suffer as they did and will. Most importantly a really nice person did not need to have her life snubbed out so abruptly and in such a cold, humiliating and detached manner.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Children are usually the product of their environment and parenting. I am yet to meet a truly evil child. As Dr Watson might tell you many of the most violent and aggressive people (prison) frequently have had some sort of acquired brain injury. They weren't born evil either. A lot I see also have severe childhood PTSD that has profoundly affected them. I see them as children with ODD or conduct disorder and sadly many of them end up sociopaths and extemely dangerous. Many have logical explanations for their beliefs when you tie it in with their upbringing and the abuse suffered.

As for GBC...well aloof seems a little bit possible I would like to hear from NBC. And finally, I think we all feel sad when it comes out. A light was extinguished forever and for what purpose? It is rare a person gets away with a crime like this so the victim h died in vain because no good comes of it for the perpetrator.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178991&page=36



Pulp Fiction, I was a little bit surprised to read the above bolded by me statement. I too have a background in psychology (I'm not verified on here, so won't go into too much detail on that), which made me do a double-take re your post.

I think there is a much stronger balance of nature/nurture than you have acknowledged. Sure, environment can play a major part, but we are also born with a specific genetic makeup that means two people exposed to the same circumstances don't always respond the same way. Just like someone who develops cancer, there is a genetic predisposition, that is triggered through exposure. And in some situations, decision-making and free will certainly influence how a person develops (or how stilted their development is). Your statement suggests hope is lost if born into a damaging home environment. I just don't agree with this, and from your other posts, I don't think you believe this either.

And the suggestion that 'the apple doesn't fall far from the tree' is a very very broad generalisation - murderers do not necessarily breed murderers (through genetics or parenting). There are just way too many factors for this statement to be plausible.

I also believe that the term 'born evil', although featured in the research literature nowadays, brings forward a whole lot of generalisations and assumptions from the old 'good versus evil' concept. I am not sure how 'evil' can be classifed in the DSM? It also suggests a very black and white view of what our profession views as mental illness and psychopathy.

You sound like you do an absolutely brilliant job working with kids (which I can tell from your sincere posts), but I just had to comment re that one paragraph in your post.

I believe what is written here is just another opinion. I dont understand the surprise at Pulpfiction's post. This assumes the correctness of one opinion over another. I consider Pulpfictions post very helpful and valid. The last statement ... hmmm....

 

[DunnoZo]

Just returned from a local day out in Brookfield. At 10:30 this morning I passes 2 uniformed (maybe QPS) walking/studying the little bridge near the Brookfield Nurseries Inbound . Of course, the first thing i think I must tell you guys! Don't know if it was related t all, but could be.

also, At the local fair, I was naturally drawn to the big vase of yellow flowers.A small sign asking for donations for Baden Clay girls. I got shivers, and it made me smile, and I donated, and thank you to whoever's idea that was.

 

[itsthevibe]

Thanks for the compliment. Actually the apple doesnt fall far from the tree was in fact a direct reference to NBC and GBC. It was not in reference to anything other than those 2 characters. I can see how you might have thought otherwise though. As for the rest I'm not sure how or why you've arrived at your current viewpoints on what is black/white or what is nature/nurture and feel you're way off base with what my thoughts are professionally and generally speaking. But that's ok as this isn't the place for it as its an Allison Baden Clay forum and not an academic discussion But it's all good

Born Evil - is a popular term used commonly and somewhat negatively, in the media. It is used in this context to make a specific and descriptive point or analogy for this forum - not as an academic or even humanitarian construct. I do not believe in birn evil myself. Nature/nurture is a debate that will always be around as you correctly suggest. It is widely acknowledged in forensic psychology there is...actually I'm not going to head down that road - too long lol. I'm a little confused by your "Your statement suggests hope is lost if born into a damaging home environment. I just don't agree with this, and from your other posts, I don't think you believe this either". That is definitely not what I suggest or believe at all and I speak of small population.You may have jumped to a conclusion that is your own as its not mine lol. Suffice to say it is fact in prison populations that what I have said is often, but no, not always, true.

The DSM is a manual. It is not the only relevant or commonly used manual. It is open to much scrutiny and interpretation. It is often not as accurate or clear as it could be but provides a solid basis. It is regularly updated for these reasons. The construct of "evil" in terms of how it is perceived and measured is one that has been studied considerably in several prison populations both in USA and the UK. It is a fascinating methodology used and the stats indeed do show a statistically significant "evil" variable as vulgar as that sounds in terms of how we define it as such. Thank you for your interesting comments enjoyed your post.

thanks for this, very enlightening and I do think this discussion can help the case - just as profiling is used by LE in helping to solve crimes.

 

[Bayside]

Well what I would like to know is this - if Allison was killed at the house as reported by msm - then wouldn't there be blood there - but I can't remember reading in msm about any blood at the house - and if she was bleeding in the house from injuries sustained there - wouldn't GBC have taken precautions in the car so as the blood was not found there?

It doesn't add up to me..........IMO

The media has only reported a small amount of information so just because they havent mentioned blood in the house doesnt mean that there wasnt any. It is probably more relevant that there is blood in the family car than the home as it could be argued that an intruder killed Allison in the house.

The info given at the bail hearing was enough to have his bail denied and that is all it was put forward for. The limited info that is being leaked is for a reason and without knowing all the info it would be impossible to make sense of it. IMO

 

[Bayside]

Just returned from a local day out in Brookfield. At 10:30 this morning I passes 2 uniformed (maybe QPS) walking/studying the little bridge near the Brookfield Nurseries Inbound . Of course, the first thing i think I must tell you guys! Don't know if it was related t all, but could be.

also, At the local fair, I was naturally drawn to the big vase of yellow flowers.A small sign asking for donations for Baden Clay girls. I got shivers, and it made me smile, and I donated, and thank you to whoever's idea that was.

Good to see another local reporter on the job lol....thanks.

 

[itsthevibe]

Well what I would like to know is this - if Allison was killed at the house as reported by msm - then wouldn't there be blood there - but I can't remember reading in msm about any blood at the house - and if she was bleeding in the house from injuries sustained there - wouldn't GBC have taken precautions in the car so as the blood was not found there?

It doesn't add up to me..........IMO

From what others have posted in the past I think the stains on the wheel hubs are not blood, I think the luminol shows up certain cleaning products and may even show up some substances used in forensics? Not sure exactly, but i dont think it all has to be blood.

So I think the only blood may be on the door, where it actually looked more like blood dripping down. I was thinking that blood could have come from her face, either nose or mouth, after being placed in the car and door closing and perhaps her face ended up getting squashed onto the door, maybe accidentally when the body moved in the car or something. There may have also been some blood on the floor of the car, which is why all those toys were placed there. But i dont know how that would have got there unless it was also from the nose or mouth as the body was being slid or pushed into the vehicle.

This is of course based on Allison being strangled or smothered. This link below describes homicidal smothering, throttling, and other methods such as Gagging/Choking (stuffing something into the mouth). On reading the descriptions in detail it seems it's more likely that there could be bleeding from nose and mouth if she was smothered, but there is a possibility of blood in the other methods, however not as common from the way I read it.

http://http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123

Alternatively, if the marks throughout the back of the vehicle including the wheel mounts are actually blood, then there has to be something drastic that has occurred in terms of injuries, such as bashing, removal of hand/s and/or feet, or god knows what else. I lean towards it being more simple and those areas not being blood, but I also keep thinking about what Hawkins and Pulp have very vaguely alluded to, that some of what we find out will be a shocker.

I do feel that the alleged murderer, at the time, would have gone into a frenzy and whatever happened he would have pursued any actions to ensure he killed Allison. If the murderer is GBC, looking at his track record of accidents and generally botching a lot of things, I think it's possible that somehow he may have stuffed up trying to kill her initially, and as she was not dead he resorted to further actions to ensure her death. I hope this is not true but it seems feasible and could explain the comments about it being disturbing when we eventually find out what happened. It would also explain the reports that once the body was found police had a pretty good idea of COD, and also why they were so concerned when they first went to the house - basically that in some way he made a mess of it, and then had to work much harder to clean things up.

 

[Sleuthilicious]

Sorry if this has already been posted but I've not been online for a while...

http://www.news.com.au/national/ger...s-for-bankruptcy/story-fndo4ckr-1226431613334

 

[ollijack]

Sorry if this has already been posted but I've not been online for a while...

http://www.news.com.au/national/ger...s-for-bankruptcy/story-fndo4ckr-1226431613334

Thankyou Sleuthilicious......I had missed it. xxxxx:seeya:

 

[bearbear]

I am still somewhat confused regarding the blood evidence. From where on the body would the blood have been from if there was no evidence of injury other than a chipped tooth. Which is indicative that there was no visible sign of any external injuries. Also, how does blood appear on both wheel hubs but not in the centre of the vehicle. The use of a tarp does not fully explain that to me because again at what area of the body would the blood come from so that it would leave it on both wheel hubs.

allison was possibly rolled in a tarpaulin or sheet, rug etc and her body too long so if her head was out one end fluid or blood may have been in her hair and dripped or smeared the hub, and if her body was then moved to a different position, it could explain the other wheel hub? reportedly it was only a small drop of blood found and could have even been transferred from the killer after contact with allison?

 

[ollijack]

was just looking at his FB page. 360 people now....I'm surprised at these people. I can understand his family but why are the other's there. They are like voyeurs. I would be too embarrassed to be seen.

 

[Bayside]

wish we could get a teensy weensy bit more inside info or msm report to keep us sleuthing. i liked hearing all the rumours from locals and people who know people, so far a lot of them have been true, arent we allowed to discuss rumours anymore?

No rumours and no chit chat, prob why it is so quiet here today.

 

[marlywings]

wish we could get a teensy weensy bit more inside info or msm report to keep us sleuthing. i liked hearing all the rumours from locals and people who know people, so far a lot of them have been true, arent we allowed to discuss rumours anymore?

bearbear...Summer's post on first page of this thread...

#6 Yesterday, 09:42 PM
summer_breeze
WS Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 20,099

Please do not discuss rumors. Although SOME rumors turn out to be true in the end, there are also those that are just that 'rumor,' and tend to derail the threads. Until there's a 'link' to verify a circumstance, we ask you do NOT post rumors.

This includes discussion of what the minor children "might" have said.

If locals wish to be verified (as local residents with insider information), then we would be able to discuss, unless the information might jeopardize the investigation or case.

 

[Bayside]

I agree, a lot of what has been discussed here is rumour, some of which has turned out to be true.

I think we should be able to continue that, and I think most people take many things with the proverbial grain of salt.

No offence to mods though, I think you all do an awesome job, and this is a great website :rocker:

I agree with you Laura.... Oh well at least my kitchen is getting a good scrub down lol.

 

[Bayside]

was just looking at his FB page. 360 people now....I'm surprised at these people. I can understand his family but why are the other's there. They are like voyeurs. I would be too embarrassed to be seen.

Yeah I dont know what they are waiting for from him haha.