Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

[alioop]

My apologies for the obscurity. Also I so appreciate your legal knowledge here.
Question was this, if a person is put on the stand, can they be made to answer questions such as:
Did you take the phone?
What did you do with it?
Where is it now? Why did you take the phone?
Where exactly were you at between 11pm 19 April and 6.00am 20 April 2012?
And what exactly were doing during those hours?

Yes they can be asked these questions. There may be varying answers given. for eg
Did you take the phone- NO- ( if true then no repercussions, if false then they may later and maybe a lot later like weeks, months or years, be charged with the crime of perjury if there is sufficient evidence to do so.)
or Did you take the phone- I REFUSE TO ANSWER ON THE GROUNDS IT MAY INCRIMINATE ME- then the magistrate has to decide if they have to answer the question or not. If they are directed by the magistrate to answer the question and refuse to then they can be held in contempt of court and punished. See my previous post about contempt that Marly found below.

Hi again Alioop. I would like to please ask this question if I may:
What are the repercussions about lying under oath.
Reason for asking is this:
It appears apparent that the accused is a Liar. Pure and simple.
(Don't know about his family.)
It also appears that the accused would give the answer that carries the most lenient sentence. Truthful, half truthful or a deliberate lie. Whichever comes cheapest.

I don't believe that GBC will testify in his own defence if committed for trial, as it then means he can be cross examined and that would be very risky for him. Remember he doesn't have to prove anything, the onus of proof is completely on the prosecution. If he doesn't give evidence, he can't lie as he won't open his mouth. The questions you raise about lying under oath, are more applicable to the other witnesses whether they be prosecution or defence witnesses.

Perjury is a crime punishable by a maximum of 14 years prison.

CRIMINAL CODE - SECT 123

123 Perjury
(1) Any person who in any judicial proceeding, or for the purpose of instituting any judicial proceeding, knowingly gives false testimony touching any matter which is material to any question then depending in that proceeding, or intended to be raised in that proceeding, is guilty of a crime, which is called perjury.

(2) It is immaterial whether the testimony is given on oath or under any other sanction authorised by law.

(3) The forms and ceremonies used in administering the oath or in otherwise binding the person giving the testimony to speak the truth are immaterial, if the person assents to the forms and ceremonies actually used.

(4) It is immaterial whether the false testimony is given orally or in writing.

(5) It is immaterial whether the court or tribunal is properly constituted, or is held in the proper place, or not, if it actually acts as a court or tribunal in the proceeding in which the testimony is given.

(6) It is immaterial whether the person who gives the testimony is a competent witness or not, or whether the testimony is admissible in the proceeding or not.

(7) The offender can not be arrested without warrant.

There is also a crime of fabrication of evidence

126 Fabricating evidence
(1) Any person who, with intent to mislead any tribunal in any judicial proceeding—

(a) fabricates evidence by any means other than perjury or counselling or procuring the commission of perjury; or
(b) knowingly makes use of such fabricated evidence;
is guilty of a crime, and is liable to imprisonment for 7 years.

(2) The offender can not be arrested without warrant.

So lying and fabricating evidence are serious crimes with serious penalties. Of course if someone is charged with these offences, it has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that they are guilty.

Let me know if this isn't the one & I'll have another look.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #39

Thought I'd add this post of yours in as well as it includes link to the "Going To Court" booklet which some members may like to read.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #35


http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/30620/GoingToCourt_booklet.pdf

Thanks for finding those Marly. The first link is the one I was thinking of regarding the issue of being in contempt of court for not answering a question if directed to by the judge.

 

[alioop]

Fantastic! Thanks!

Alioop, other court experts...what time do these matters usually get going in the morning? Will my arrival at 8am-ish work? I promise to take my pencil and paper and report back.

Hi brizzymum, you have no doubt seen my previous posts that Marly found about where to find the magistrates court at 363 George Street in the city. I have just looked at todays court list for magistrate court matters and it looks like most matters start at 9am and a couple at 8.30 am so if you got there around 8 you would be nice and early and have time to find where you need to go. When you can get into the building, find the court room and go and sit outside it and wait until the doors open. Go in as soon as they do so you can get a seat. Don't be shy, get in there. Check the online magistrates court brisbane list from 6.45 am on the day for the time and court room allocated.

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__external/CourtsLawList/BrisbaneMagCourt.pdf

Also suggest you don't take a pencil, take 2 pens. I only took a pencil with me to the second bail hearing and by the end it was worn down from my 23 pages of notes ( they were small A6 pages but still a lot of writing). I was worried it was going to break or run out on me and then I would be stuffed! No more notes! As it turned out my phone battery died before my pencil ran out. Oh and another tip, charge batteries so can twitter,post, whatever. Don't waste it like I did before I went into court posting about the weather! Silly me.

 

[Thinking]

To get them out of the way of the Police.

Maybe so they could not answer any awkward questions, or maybe so GBC could give his version of events without fear of contradiction, or maybe because she was a caring aunt that wanted to make sure they wouldn't be late for school.

MOO/IMO etc

I agree. At most schools a parent/guardian has to stay with the prep children until the bell rings - I think perhaps this is why OW would have got back to the house at 8:45am.

The question is why she had to rush them out the door at 8am when the police arrived....IMO

 

[Humdinger]

Maybe the girls were booked into the before school program? That would explain an 8am drop off.

Either OW stayed on at school to talk to teachers etc, or was elsewhere for 'other'reasons. I think either are plausible.

Though if she genuinely knew nothing I'd be inclined to think that she'd be keen to drop kids off to know they're safe and cared for, tell principal briefly that their Mum was missing and that she'd call later with any updates, then rush back to support brother and find out if there's an update on missing SIL. I can't see why she'd be gone for 45mins - unless her own kids were at skull manor and she went past them to say good morning and tell them they were staying there for the day?

 

[Couldbe]

I agree. At most schools a parent/guardian has to stay with the prep children until the bell rings - I think perhaps this is why OW would have got back to the house at 8:45am.

The question is why she had to rush them out the door at 8am when the police arrived....IMO

Maybe something sinister / maybe just ....... more 'bad parenting' - 'out of sight/out of mind.
Overall, they would have been out of the way while investigations were taking place. Their Mother wasn't there to take care of them ..... in GBC's own words "I'm trying to look after my children at the moment, we've got three young girls," he said - http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...alking-to-others/story-e6freon6-1226395031444

 

[Liadan]

Possible that she may have talked with the teachers' about the girls distress as their mother had not returned from her morning walk.
May have also talked with Principal etc.
I'm sure QPolice would have investigated what OW said to teachers etc. which will most likely form part of the evidence in this scenario IMO.

Good Point F and Linette, I just imagine OW rocking up to each of the girls teachers saying, the girls are all little bit upset this morning because their dad has told them their mum has fallen down a hole and is not coming back from her regular morning walk.

The teachers would be horrofied that the girls were at school! They should have been in their grandparents arms being loved and cherished. Dear little things - its heartbreaking.

 

[Judicious]

Good Point F and Linette, I just imagine OW rocking up to each of the girls teachers saying, the girls are all little bit upset this morning because their dad has told them their mum has fallen down a hole and is not coming back from her regular morning walk.

The teachers would be horrofied that the girls were at school! They should have been in their grandparents arms being loved and cherished. Dear little things - its heartbreaking.

I agree totally Liadan, I was horrified when I heard that the kiddies were sent off to school..sure is heartbreaking.
I would think that the teachers will be called as a witness to what they were told by OW (if she spoke to the teachers).
This whole thing makes me feel sick in the stomach and I'm not even related or knew Allison. Sometimes I even felt sad for EBC being a parent myself, and then I think of that video..yes that video !!!! I think you all know what video I am talking about..to me it showed a total lack of respect for their daughter in law..seem to have forgotten Allison is the mother of their precious grandchildren and how distraught those little ones would be loosing in life what they love the most. Even if they didn't like their daughter in law, they could have shown some respect, even if it was just for the kiddies sake !!!!!.......and then the look on NBC face at the funeral (need I say any more about his look ).....I feel a lot of their actions ( the whole family) is what outraged the nation !!!!!!!!!!!!
all my opinion only

 

[Inspector]

What! 200 metres! I wonder if the children normally WALKED to school. A 2 to 6minute walk. depending on the dawdle factor.
Meaning, how did they they get to school, every day other than the one when their mother was supposedly a few minutes late. (Might have simply fallen down a hole, but nothing serious like.)
If so, why the need to remove them to school just when the police were about to arrive?
And just another matter: (I'm a bit out of date here) Getting the kids to school at 08.00am? Doesn't school start at 09.00am?
Why the need to be so EARLY?

Doesn't make sense time wise. A poster a long time ago who has kids at the same school said that ABC drove the children to school every day, despite living across the road from the school. I know the area. The road their old house is on is a little dangerous to cross with young children, which may explain this. I assume the intention of the early departure that morning was to take the children away from the scene.

 

[justice4allison]

Hi all,

Long time lurker, first time poster!

I've followed this case and your comments with intense interest from the moment news broke that Allison was missing. Like most of you, from very early on I believed she was dead & it was GBC that killed her. At first, it was just a general hunch but then when I saw the impromptu interview & the subsequent footage & details emerge of his wierdo family, I was convinced he/they were involved somehow. I had nightmares about GBC regularly up until the day he was arrested.

I live in Brisbane (not in the Brookfield area though). I will be in the courtroom on Monday - I wish I was able attend the rest of the days set down but I have a young family. I cannot wait to hear what the prosecution has on GBC. I have a background in psychology & a long-standing interest in criminology (currently studying forensic psych) so I'll be watching carefully to see what I can pick up in GBC's demeanour & body-language as the evidence is presented (I’m no expert though).

One question - perhaps for Alioop: is everything that is revealed in the courtroom next week able to be 'broadcast' to the general public eg. via twitter?

Oh & just as an aside - I seem to remember one of the Facebook sites set up around the case was called 'Justice 4 Allison'. I am in no way associated with that page or anyone running it - just a coincidence in the name.

Thank you all for you information & insights over the past 10 months or so. Let's hope we see some encouraging news in the coming days.

 

[Liadan]

Doesn't make sense time wise. A poster a long time ago who has kids at the same school said that ABC drove the children to school every day, despite living across the road from the school. I know the area. The road their old house is on is a little dangerous to cross with young children, which may explain this. I assume the intention of the early departure that morning was to take the children away from the scene.

They live at the bottom of a huge hill as well. I wouldn't want to start my day climbing that hill even if I was Cadel Evans.

 

[Makara]

:wagon: justice4allison. Pleased to have you with us.

Hi all,

Long time lurker, first time poster!

I've followed this case and your comments with intense interest from the moment news broke that Allison was missing. Like most of you, from very early on I believed she was dead & it was GBC that killed her. At first, it was just a general hunch but then when I saw the impromptu interview & the subsequent footage & details emerge of his wierdo family, I was convinced he/they were involved somehow. I had nightmares about GBC regularly up until the day he was arrested.

I live in Brisbane (not in the Brookfield area though). I will be in the courtroom on Monday - I wish I was able attend the rest of the days set down but I have a young family. I cannot wait to hear what the prosecution has on GBC. I have a background in psychology & a long-standing interest in criminology (currently studying forensic psych) so I'll be watching carefully to see what I can pick up in GBC's demeanour & body-language as the evidence is presented (I’m no expert though).

One question - perhaps for Alioop: is everything that is revealed in the courtroom next week able to be 'broadcast' to the general public eg. via twitter?

Oh & just as an aside - I seem to remember one of the Facebook sites set up around the case was called 'Justice 4 Allison'. I am in no way associated with that page or anyone running it - just a coincidence in the name.

Thank you all for you information & insights over the past 10 months or so. Let's hope we see some encouraging news in the coming days.

 

[bearbear]

maybe the girls were visibly upset and had told ow what they had seen/heard that night, maybe one of them had made the video call wondering where their parents were, so ow didnt want them around the police, or maybe she just didnt want them alarmed or upset any further by the police presence, so dropped them off early to play with their friends and have a quick chat to their teacher and even do some damage control in case the girls said anything?

 

[brizzymum]

Hi all,

Long time lurker, first time poster!

I've followed this case and your comments with intense interest from the moment news broke that Allison was missing. Like most of you, from very early on I believed she was dead & it was GBC that killed her. At first, it was just a general hunch but then when I saw the impromptu interview & the subsequent footage & details emerge of his wierdo family, I was convinced he/they were involved somehow. I had nightmares about GBC regularly up until the day he was arrested.

I live in Brisbane (not in the Brookfield area though). I will be in the courtroom on Monday - I wish I was able attend the rest of the days set down but I have a young family. I cannot wait to hear what the prosecution has on GBC. I have a background in psychology & a long-standing interest in criminology (currently studying forensic psych) so I'll be watching carefully to see what I can pick up in GBC's demeanour & body-language as the evidence is presented (I’m no expert though).

One question - perhaps for Alioop: is everything that is revealed in the courtroom next week able to be 'broadcast' to the general public eg. via twitter?

Oh & just as an aside - I seem to remember one of the Facebook sites set up around the case was called 'Justice 4 Allison'. I am in no way associated with that page or anyone running it - just a coincidence in the name.

Thank you all for you information & insights over the past 10 months or so. Let's hope we see some encouraging news in the coming days.

See you there justice4allison!

 

[possumheart]

when I saw the impromptu interview & the subsequent footage & details emerge of his wierdo family, I was convinced he/they were involved somehow. I had nightmares about GBC regularly up until the day he was arrested.

J4A, I sympathise with you on the nightmares. GBC lived literally within cooee of where I live now when he was going to school. Just across from it is the escarpment which was really an amazing hilly wild and wooly bit of landscape dropping off the range edge. (There are quite a few more houses there now).
I used to go and throw paper aeroplanes from there and prowl around as did many kids. I am sure GBC spent many years scrambling up and down those escarpment goat tracks and it would almost be second nature to him. I lose sleep thinking about Kholo Creek because it isn't really that challenging compared to the escarpment. Even the name 'Bruce Overland' conjures images of someone who is supremely confident in the scrub.

 

[Curiousasacat]

Hi all,

Long time lurker, first time poster!

I've followed this case and your comments with intense interest from the moment news broke that Allison was missing. Like most of you, from very early on I believed she was dead & it was GBC that killed her. At first, it was just a general hunch but then when I saw the impromptu interview & the subsequent footage & details emerge of his wierdo family, I was convinced he/they were involved somehow. I had nightmares about GBC regularly up until the day he was arrested.

I live in Brisbane (not in the Brookfield area though). I will be in the courtroom on Monday - I wish I was able attend the rest of the days set down but I have a young family. I cannot wait to hear what the prosecution has on GBC. I have a background in psychology & a long-standing interest in criminology (currently studying forensic psych) so I'll be watching carefully to see what I can pick up in GBC's demeanour & body-language as the evidence is presented (I’m no expert though).

One question - perhaps for Alioop: is everything that is revealed in the courtroom next week able to be 'broadcast' to the general public eg. via twitter?

Oh & just as an aside - I seem to remember one of the Facebook sites set up around the case was called 'Justice 4 Allison'. I am in no way associated with that page or anyone running it - just a coincidence in the name.

Thank you all for you information & insights over the past 10 months or so. Let's hope we see some encouraging news in the coming days.

Hi and welcome justice4allison....I have bolded a little above and for me this is very exciting and I can't wait to see what you have to say on Monday.

 

[Liadan]

:detective:Shout out to Brizzy mum and J4A for their time at the hearing.:skip: Thanks so much!:tyou:

:cheers:

 

[Curiousasacat]

maybe the girls were visibly upset and had told ow what they had seen/heard that night, maybe one of them had made the video call wondering where their parents were, so ow didnt want them around the police, or maybe she just didnt want them alarmed or upset any further by the police presence, so dropped them off early to play with their friends and have a quick chat to their teacher and even do some damage control in case the girls said anything?

Wasn't there talk from Hawkins early on that the girls said something "odd" to the police.

 

[Curiousasacat]

:detective:Shout out to Brizzy mum and J4A for their time at the hearing.:skip: Thanks so much!:tyou:

:cheers:

Hip! Hip! Yes, Thanks. Can't wait to hear from both of you.

 

[Humdinger]

Wasn't there talk from Hawkins early on that the girls said something "odd" to the police.

Yes that certainly was mentioned early on.

Where did Hawkins go? I miss his posts!

 

[Anonthemouse]

To those who are planning on going on Monday and maybe even keeping us updated... any chance you can put up your twitter handle so that we can follow you? (Is that allowed Marly?)
TIA