Analyzing the Ramsey family

[BuySellTrade]

I think Patsy stayed in this marriage for looks , status and money. John's love was long gone. He was cold and distant and even during the hardest time for Patsy - fight with cancer - he was not there for her...Their sex life , the way I see it, was minimal or none...

During staging JB was penetrated digitally - with an object - trying to mask multiply previous penetrations ( and experts I guess were not sure was it done digitally or with other ways)...

The other person I think could be a molester is JAR - but it seems a bit far fetched and hard to explain...

What about Father Paugh as the possible molester?

 

[Me66]

There are a few red flags in the case and most outstanding is that JonBenet was sexually assaulted, so on that basis its not PDI with Patsy whacking JonBenet, etc.

But if it was digital penetration, or use of an object, this doesn't rule out Patsy. Yes, statistically it's more likely to have been a male, but it's not sufficient to absolve Patsy.

 

[UKGuy]

But if it was digital penetration, or use of an object, this doesn't rule out Patsy. Yes, statistically it's more likely to have been a male, but it's not sufficient to absolve Patsy.

Me66,

Sure I agree, why not Patsy? Well if we assume PDI and she decides to stage JonBenet, why bother moving her down to the basement, as once there Patsy deposits loads of personal forensic evidence that uniquely links her to the wine-cellar, in a manner not possible with JonBenet's bedroom.

If the case is PDI and Patsy sexually assaulted JonBenet why does she need to fake a sexual assault, e.g. that can be blamed on the intruder ?

Its all Patsy down there in the wine-cellar, the fibers in the ligature knots, on the sticky side of the duct-tape.

Then she is identified as writing the ransom note, as a literature graduate, she knows the template for crime-scene genre's, i.e. those film movie quotes, grow a brain. The use of attache-case not just bring a case, these represent someone's perspective with an eye for detail and drama. John writing the ransom note would have written something like: Bring a case at 10:00 AM and you get JonBenet back

So the thing about any PDI is that in conclusion Patsy ends up staging herself right into the final crime-scene, is that not odd?

.

 

[David Rogers]

I think Patsy stayed in this marriage for looks , status and money. John's love was long gone. He was cold and distant and even during the hardest time for Patsy - fight with cancer - he was not there for her...Their sex life , the way I see it, was minimal or none...

During staging JB was penetrated digitally - with an object - trying to mask multiply previous penetrations ( and experts I guess were not sure was it done digitally or with other ways)...

The other person I think could be a molester is JAR - but it seems a bit far fetched and hard to explain...

Remember that a semen stained blanket and a adult Dr Seuss book was found in the basement traced to JAR.

 

[angelevie]

I think Patsy stayed in this marriage for looks , status and money. John's love was long gone. He was cold and distant and even during the hardest time for Patsy - fight with cancer - he was not there for her...Their sex life , the way I see it, was minimal or none...

During staging JB was penetrated digitally - with an object - trying to mask multiply previous penetrations ( and experts I guess were not sure was it done digitally or with other ways)...

The other person I think could be a molester is JAR - but it seems a bit far fetched and hard to explain...

JAR being behind the signs of CSA (child sexual abuse) is an interesting theory... as I said in my original post, I struggled with JonBenét having been consistently sexually abused. I think her parents' relationship with her toilet training and regressive habits in that field were certainly traumatic for her, but not necessarily purely sexual at the root but by proxy (because issues with bed-wetting etc. involve genitalia.) someone with a close relationship to her and unsuspecting access to her that isn't 24/7 could line up better for me in that way. it was harder for me to get on board with John Sr. being the abuser just because of gut feeling alone since I don't know everything about JonBenét's medical history or documented psychology of the Ramsey family in the past. my gut feeling originates from the fact that I am a victim of CSA (took place for 3 years before I was 10 years old) and while I felt JonBenét was exploited and abused to a certain extent, it never struck me as something frequent just based on the fact that she didn't shy away from people at any point or seem afraid of them. of course I could be wrong, my emotional experience isn't a benchmark for everyone else's, but it was just what I felt... someone like a much older brother or uncle living in another place who would only see her on certain special occasions or at family gatherings makes a lot more sense. even if far-fetched or hard to explain, I'd be interested in hearing more about your theory! anything is worth looking into.

and I wonder if Burke was ever a victim of sexual abuse/physical abuse, as well, which could result in some of those behaviors I noted in my first post? usually these types of things within families don't just appear out of nowhere with one kid and one kid only.

 

[Me66]

Me66,
*snip*
So the thing about any PDI is that in conclusion Patsy ends up staging herself right into the final crime-scene, is that not odd?

.

Yep. It’s odd. As is almost everything about this whole mess.
I lean towards BDI - not deliberately or with intent, but out of anger or frustration - followed by parental staging. There is a reason for the Grand Jury result.

 

[Swirlz]

The detectives who investigated the case that was presented to the grand jury believed a parent caused the death.

 

[Me66]

Sorry, should have been clearer. I think Burke whacked her in the head, and one or both of the parents took it from there not realising she was possbly still alive. But I'm happy to be proven wrong. I'd be happy to have solid proof of any aspect to be honest.

 

[Beltonian]

David Rogers, it sure is super strange and coincidental about JAR suitcase and a book and his overall obsession of JB...Too bad we know very little about this aspect of the story...

angelevie, JB an BR medical records remain sealed, I wonder why for so many years...I think we would find out a lot from them...along with 14 pages of sealed documents that only members of Grand Jury saw...

 

[UKGuy]

Yep. It’s odd. As is almost everything about this whole mess.
I lean towards BDI - not deliberately or with intent, but out of anger or frustration - followed by parental staging. There is a reason for the Grand Jury result.

Me66,
The accidental BDI is possible but is it not ironic that the parents must have found out afterwards that if they had just taken JonBenet to hospital and said Burke whacked her by mistake then as he was underage nothing would have happened, no charges, no media coverage, nothing?

Then there is the evidence for sexual assault both acute and chronic. In an accidental BDI this can be explained away with the chronic aspect being someone else and the acute aspect as staging done by the parents to change an accident into an Intruder Assault.

Both John and Burke really know who killed JonBenet, even if they were not present as only they can parse the truth from all the lies and accounts offered by the Ramsey's and friends over the years.

Burke really does know if he sipped tea while JonBenet snacked pineapple, or if those really are his fecally soiled pajama bottoms on JonBenet's beroom floor.

Also John will know who dressed JonBenet in the size-12's and longjohns, e.g. either himself or by elimination, Patsy or Burke.

Then there are the stuff on the Missing In Action List, e.g. JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms, her size-6 underwear, and of course the remaining five pairs of size-12 Bloomingdales, all this vanished and was not found, even though BPD turned the house over. Did Pam Paugh take all this stuff in her house raid under BPD supervision, does anyone know another homicide case where relatives are allowed into the crime-scene to remove stuff?


The good news is we will find out one day since, over time as BPD leak evidence, this will allow us to eliminate particular theories.

Also will Burke do media interviews once John is gone, if the case is not BDI, then I can see Burke wishing to redeem himself with the public?

.

 

[borndem]

Me66,
The accidental BDI is possible but is it not ironic that the parents must have found out afterwards that if they had just taken JonBenet to hospital and said Burke whacked her by mistake then as he was underage nothing would have happened, no charges, no media coverage, nothing?

Then there is the evidence for sexual assault both acute and chronic. In an accidental BDI this can be explained away with the chronic aspect being someone else and the acute aspect as staging done by the parents to change an accident into an Intruder Assault.

Both John and Burke really know who killed JonBenet, even if they were not present as only they can parse the truth from all the lies and accounts offered by the Ramsey's and friends over the years.

Burke really does know if he sipped tea while JonBenet snacked pineapple, or if those really are his fecally soiled pajama bottoms on JonBenet's beroom floor.

Also John will know who dressed JonBenet in the size-12's and longjohns, e.g. either himself or by elimination, Patsy or Burke.

Then there are the stuff on the Missing In Action List, e.g. JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms, her size-6 underwear, and of course the remaining five pairs of size-12 Bloomingdales, all this vanished and was not found, even though BPD turned the house over. Did Pam Paugh take all this stuff in her house raid under BPD supervision, does anyone know another homicide case where relatives are allowed into the crime-scene to remove stuff?


The good news is we will find out one day since, over time as BPD leak evidence, this will allow us to eliminate particular theories.

Also will Burke do media interviews once John is gone, if the case is not BDI, then I can see Burke wishing to redeem himself with the public?

.

I don't see Burke ever opening up about it, even if he didn't do it. If he didn't do it, I don't think he knows who did. My initial theory being that he hit her and she fell down a flight of stairs (I think the basement stairs) and that fall fatally injured her brain via the accident of her falling.
Regardless, I do not think Burke will ever give any details other than something like, "I don't know what happened -- I was asleep. He either knows he caused her to get injured and won't discuss it, or he doesn't know what happened. JMHO.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

JonBenet and Burke attended High Peaks Elementary School , a public, not private school. John said he could see it from his office window.

JonBenet was Patsy's and Nedra Paugh's project She was to be their Miss America. Something Patsy came close to, but never won.
Patsy spent hundreds of dollars on JonBenet's dresses and pageant costumes. According to John, JonBenet took violin , rock climbing, piano, French and acting lessons. JonBenet was being groomed to win the crown, to be the winner that Pasty never was.
JonBenet's pageant life was eighteen months before she was killed. You can see the progression from a innocent little girl, to one that Patsy had sexualised with bleached blonde hair, skimpy costumes and teaching JonBenet to be flirtatious. Several friends thought about taking to Patsy about what she was turning Jonbenet into. She was only six years old.

John claimed they were just a typical American family. Which was true in many way, they just had more money, but many of the same problems. Patsy was facing forty years old, losing her looks, ( she had a chin implant that summer ) was always fighting her weight because of John, and was in a failing marriage.
According to LHP there was discord in the house. She said that she wouldn't of been surprised to her of them getting a divorce. And in her book, LHP said Patsy asked about a certain sex act John wanted, and after reading that I can't get this image of Patsy on her knees out of my head. She also said Patsy was started drinking more that month.

The bowl of pineapple. John said that they had their usual Christmas morning breakfast. JonBenet helped John make pancakes, and Burke and Pasty setting the table and such. Could the bowl been left out on the table? LPH said Pasty left things for her to clean up, could it of been left on the table in the rush of that morning and all else they had to do that day? Sometime after they got home JonBenet had some of that pineapple, that is indisputable fact, and sometime after that she suffered a catastrophic head injury and lived about two hours before she was murdered.

I think a lot about who caused the blow to JonBenet's head. An already stressed Pasty, trying to finish packing for two trips, one she didn't want to take, going in to wake Jonbenet to go potty before an accident, and it was too late?
Maybe JonBenet followed Pasty to the basement to put the white blanket in the washer and dryer? Maybe Burke was down there playing with his new toys, she made him angry and he hit her.
I do believe Melody Stanton heard a child scream, and that was when JonBenet was hit and she went down. Dr. Werner Spitz said that marks on JonBenet matched up to the train track found in the train room, as if she was poked to see if there was a response.
I think something happened down there between her and Burke. But then you would claim an accident and call for the paramedics wouldn't you? But something stopped Pasty , and that would of been shame and a family secret being found out. I'm in the camp that Patsy killed Jonbenet. I think she waited, thinking she'd be Ok. As far as she knew, JonBenet would be Ok, she'd wake up, Maybe Patsy knew she had waited too long to claim a accident and she to come up with something to point in another direction, not at them. Did she think JonBenet was dead when she killed her? I'm not sure, but she had no choice right? Patsy was all about Patsy and her standing in Boulder.

I wonder about Steve Thomas and the dictionary with the corner of the page creased and pointing to the word incest. Why would someone be looking at that word? Would it be looking to see if it meant a father, a brother, or even a grandfather? One that had babysat Burke and JonBenet earlier that month? And she knew she had to hide that.

The ransom note and John's bonus. Someone was bothered about it for some reason. Enough to mention it in the letter
(not a note , a letter) meant something to someone. I wonder if Patsy didn't know about it, and first heard about it at the White's party. Maybe John was bragging ? Nedra said 'As long as Mr. Ramsey brought in the money, we’ll spend it.” Maybe John was trying to rein in Patsy spending and it ticked her off?

I wonder about the golf clubs all a jumble in a closet in the basement, and John asking Pam to get his golf bag. Was another set of clubs with one that was used to hit Jonbenet? The golf club found outside of the house with a blonde hair attached is a puzzle isn't it?

JonBenet was starting to assert herself in what she wanted to wear and such. She and Patsy had a fight over wearing the blue velvet dress at the gingerbread house party and JonBenet gave in an wore it, but Christmas day there was another fight and Jonbenet won that one. How mad would it make Patsy and in her wanting JonBenet in matching outfit?

In the Bonita Papers it is said that "Burke appeared to lack self-motivation and had motor skill problems which made it difficult for him to transfer his thoughts to paper, whether in the form of handwriting or typing." That sounds like Dysgraphia. My grandson has Aspergers and Dysgraphia. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

What did John mean when he said Burke would have to deal with things when he was forty?

 

[fridaybaker]

Never heard about "Steve Thomas and the dictionary creased page pointing to the word "incest". Can you elucidate?

TIA!

 

[fridaybaker]

angelevie,
Here is an account of Patsy switching her focus from Burke to JonBenet, the concept of your children being projects is very questionable, to me at least.


Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Excerpt


So there was definitely some maternal dynamics going on here, could Patsy's focus on JonBenet have affected Burke, i.e. would it color how he viewed relationships, e.g. JonBenet?

Did Burke end up exploiting JonBenet in relational terms which ended up all going wrong?

Both Burke and JonBenet were seeing a therapist prior to JonBenet being killed so something was going on.

.

Does anyone here wonder why in the world a SIX YEAR-OLD would be seeing a therapist?

 

[borndem]

Does anyone here wonder why in the world a SIX YEAR-OLD would be seeing a therapist?

Bed wetting and soiling at 6 y/o would be a start, IMO. There has to be a physical or mental reason for this behavior, IMO. Stress? Abuse? Both?
I remember reading in one of the JBR books that JonB was getting tired of pageants and wanted to stop -- that could be a problem between Patsy and JonB -- a stressor for both of them.
If JonB was being sexually abused, or if she were "exploring" with a playmate, etc., either of those could cause stress on her, IMO.
Or maybe JonB was "acting out" by wetting and soiling the bed on purpose

People say a child is “acting out” when they exhibit unrestrained and improper actions. The behavior is usually caused by suppressed or denied feelings or emotions. Acting out reduces stress. It's often a child's attempt to show otherwise hidden emotions. Acting out may include fighting, throwing fits, or stealing.
https://www.healthline.com › health › acting-out

Trauma responses in children - SECASA
https://www.secasa.com.au › pages › trauma-responses-in-children
May 15, 2015 - Children who have been sexually assaulted will often bed wet every night ... Bedwetting and soiling may also occur because a child separates ... Sexual acting out by children needs to be distinct from what is natural curiosity.

As for Burke, he may have felt like the "left-out" child, due to all of Patsy's attention on the future Miss America. I could understand if he were just plain jealous. Maybe it affected his studying, etc. The "good" child who never causes trouble or problems, starts acting out.

 

[mickey2942]

I have met a lot of different parents, and children in my 25 years of teaching. Many Mothers like PR, wealthy, brittle, perfectionist types. The Fathers are usually detached from the family, due to work obligations, but they expect everything to run perfectly at home, as if their children are small employees.

I also met a lot of children like JBR, who were literally terrorized of not being perfect all of the time. They go from dance class, to violin, to piano, afraid of messing up their clothes, or even petting a dog.

I mention a dog here, because these folks are "too" busy for pets, or the mess of pets. I have never lived in a house without a dog, a cat, or several...

I have no doubt that PR killed JBR, in a fit of rage. And staged the scene. I also believe that she abused JBR.

Why did JR go along with it? He really didn't know, or want to know the truth. He wanted the whole mess to go away. Blaming PR would have destroyed the image of "Perfection". As for BR? He was pretty much ignored. I don't think that he had anything to do with it.

There are some really weird things that parents do to kids.

 

[clv129]

I have never understood why this case hasn't been solved by DNA

 

[UKGuy]

I have never understood why this case hasn't been solved by DNA

clv129,
Because nobody outside of the Ramsey household has ever been identified by the dna.


Its that simple. James Kolar, in his book Foreign Faction, says you might expect multiple foreign dna samples to be found on JonBenet and at various locations in the house, guess what: there are none, thats zero, zilch forensic evidence!

.

 

[BuySellTrade]

Jon Benet Ramsey was the first True Crime case I ever followed on the internet from essentially day 1 (or maybe 2 3 or 4). Started on UseNet. Joined a forum but can't recall name or find now. Bought and read 3-4 books over the next several years.

Why was Grandfather Dan Paugh considered as a suspect (not that Patsy and maybe John were in on the cover up)?

He was at the party on December 23 where there was the aborted 911 call.

He worked at Access Graphics and lived in Denver and thus knew about the specifics of and had regular contact with the core John Ramsey family. He was there for Christmas yet was absent in the immediate time following the murder.

Incest can be multi-generational.

 

[borndem]

clv129,
Because nobody outside of the Ramsey household has ever been identified by the dna.


Its that simple. James Kolar, in his book Foreign Faction, says you might expect multiple foreign dna samples to be found on JonBenet and at various locations in the house, guess what: there are none, thats zero, zilch forensic evidence!

.

Yep -- how about that?! When that was discovered, that's when I think the true investigation started to slow down.