Anjelica "AJ" Hadsell - COD: "Heroin Poisoning"

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Maybe she actually thought AJ was with friends like it was made to look like with the texts. In WH's latest interview he said they were texting by phone and by FaceBook (most likely FB app). Maybe she wasn't sure if she should report her missing because if it was really a drug thing they probably didn't want to bring police into it because it would have been a personal family matter that they thought they would deal with it on their own but after they couldn't really locate her through her personal friends that's when they decided to contact police. I don't doubt that this was a family that probably liked to do things their own way or exact their own revenge. That's just my own opinion based on what I have read through out media.

Yeah, I can kind of understand not wanting to involve the police into a drug matter. Where things fail for me is the lack of panic at the first mention of AJ experiencing heroin withdrawal, especially if it came from out of the blue in the middle of the night. I dunno. Probably a lot of my confusion comes from not having any experience with heroin. To me it's the same as one of my kids texting me that she was playing Russian Roulette. I wouldn't spend the night texting with her and then wait until the following night to report her missing. I'd assume something was terribly wrong and throw any cares about protecting her or my family's reputation to the wind and call the police.

But then I'm looking at things out of my own eyes. I would have reacted differently but it doesn't make me smarter or better.
 
Yeah, I can kind of understand not wanting to involve the police into a drug matter. Where things fail for me is the lack of panic at the first mention of AJ experiencing heroin withdrawal, especially if it came from out of the blue in the middle of the night. I dunno. Probably a lot of my confusion comes from not having any experience with heroin. To me it's the same as one of my kids texting me that she was playing Russian Roulette. I wouldn't spend the night texting with her and then wait until the following night to report her missing. I'd assume something was terribly wrong and throw any cares about protecting her or my family's reputation to the wind and call the police.

But then I'm looking at things out of my own eyes. I would have reacted differently but it doesn't make me smarter or better.

Definitely true but if you try to look at it by even gauging JH's reactions on the news, she didn't seem like she was frantic or horribly distressed when they did her interiew. Me, I would have been out of my mind and would be a blubbering, crying mess and wouldn't be able to get words out between sobs.
 
Snipped by me:



The question was posted about why LE were at the house where AJ was found. The LE response has been that they discovered the house through investigation,no further information than that. I am speculating that the tip about the car was reported at some point and LE was following up on that tip. The tip could have been fresh or old, but I think that's what lead them there.

I don't think the tip came AFTER AJ was found, but before.

But, of course, it's all speculation as we don't know what brought LE to the house. My point in posting is to examine what was the hint that led LE to the house, not to call out any witnesses in particular.

JMO.

My point in posting was to also speculate about what led LE to that particular house. I realize they claim information came out during the investigation, but I am wondering if their appearance on the scene of the house simply jogged the memories of residents in that neighborhood about the Dodge Caravan.

I'm speculating here, also--maybe it was and maybe it wasn't a tip about the Dodge Caravan that led LE to the Franklin house.

If the information about the Dodge was never given to LE as a tip and it simply "jogged some nearby resident(s) memories" only when LE appeared there, then what else could possibly have led LE there?

Here's just one of a number of possibilities:

1.) Vacant houses are often used by people as "party houses," especially if they are in isolated/hard to see locations. Possibly individual(s) who partied there in the past saw AJ at one (or more) parties there--even if she was never seen using drugs?

Possibly AJ had been to a party there even just after coming home from school for Spring break. Most students like to relax with friends during school breaks--even if for AJ that simply meant some music and companionship without the knowledge of any adults.

Other possibilities:
2.) LE were made aware of--or already knew of--some connection or association Wes, DH, or another adult known to AJ had with the house.
3.) Some combination of #1 and #2--we can't rule out adults being involved in partying with younger adults. The unorthodox living situation at AJ's Norfolk home may lend itself to this scenario. Possibly the lines were blurred between parenthood and friendship between some adults and their children?
4.) Other activity noticed at the Franklin home before or after AJ's disappearance which didn't involve suspicions about the Dodge Caravan, but perhaps a completely different activity that was reported as unusual to LE.
5.) The actual owners (The Stokes family in NY) having checked on their home after AJ's disappearance and reporting a possible break-in (or anything unusual) at their home, whether or not they even had AJ in mind when making a report. It isn't unusual for owner's or agents on their behalf to check-in occasionally on properties they own.
6.) Neighborhood children playing in or around the property telling/showing their parents something they heard, saw, or found there. Neighborhood parents may have called LE about it.
7.) Someone who was actually in a dark-colored Dodge Caravan deciding to come forward and report being on the Franklin property, which doesn't necessarily mean they were guilty of anything.

I'm sure there are many more possibilities (including the neighbor sighting of the Caravan in March) that may have led to LE presence at the Franklin home. Simply brainstorming possibilities a bit here.

Another thing: I wonder if LE were able to locate any imprints (tire tread, footprints, etc.) on the property itself? I'm actually curious about all possible evidence they found--along with the unfortunate obvious, of course.
 
My point in posting was to also speculate about what led LE to that particular house. I realize they claim information came out during the investigation, but I am wondering if their appearance on the scene of the house simply jogged the memories of residents in that neighborhood about the Dodge Caravan.

I'm speculating here, also--maybe it was and maybe it wasn't a tip about the Dodge Caravan that led LE to the Franklin house.

If the information about the Dodge was never given to LE as a tip and it simply "jogged some nearby resident(s) memories" only when LE appeared there, then what else could possibly have led LE there?

Here's just one of a number of possibilities:

1.) Vacant houses are often used by people as "party houses," especially if they are in isolated/hard to see locations. Possibly individual(s) who partied there in the past saw AJ at one (or more) parties there--even if she was never seen using drugs?

Possibly AJ had been to a party there even just after coming home from school for Spring break. Most students like to relax with friends during school breaks--even if for AJ that simply meant some music and companionship without the knowledge of any adults.

Other possibilities:
2.) LE were made aware of--or already knew of--some connection or association Wes, DH, or another adult known to AJ had with the house.
3.) Some combination of #1 and #2--we can't rule out adults being involved in partying with younger adults. The unorthodox living situation at AJ's Norfolk home may lend itself to this scenario. Possibly the lines were blurred between parenthood and friendship between some adults and their children?
4.) Other activity noticed at the Franklin home before or after AJ's disappearance which didn't involve suspicions about the Dodge Caravan, but perhaps a completely different activity that was reported as unusual to LE.
5.) The actual owners (The Stokes family in NY) having checked on their home after AJ's disappearance and reporting a possible break-in (or anything unusual) at their home, whether or not they even had AJ in mind when making a report. It isn't unusual for owner's or agents on their behalf to check-in occasionally on properties they own.
6.) Neighborhood children playing in or around the property telling/showing their parents something they heard, saw, or found there. Neighborhood parents may have called LE about it.
7.) Someone who was actually in a dark-colored Dodge Caravan deciding to come forward and report being on the Franklin property, which doesn't necessarily mean they were guilty of anything.

I'm sure there are many more possibilities (including the neighbor sighting of the Caravan in March) that may have led to LE presence at the Franklin home. Simply brainstorming possibilities a bit here.

Another thing: I wonder if LE were able to locate any imprints (tire tread, footprints, etc.) on the property itself? I'm actually curious about all possible evidence they found--along with the unfortunate obvious, of course.

Just to add something that always confused me. LE never said what led them to that area but all the reports said the neighbors watched them search the area the day before. So something brought them to the area but not specifically to the house. If the person who spotted the Caravan had called in a tip I'd think the first place LE would have searched would have been the driveway and back of the abandoned house.

The investigation led Norfolk police this week to the small brick house in the 34000 block of Smiths Ferry Road.

Neighbors said police began searching the property Wednesday, left and returned Thursday morning.

Officer Sam Shenouda, a department spokesman, said police began searching the area about 8 a.m. Thursday.

The remains were found about 10 a.m.


http://hamptonroads.com/2015/04/remains-found-search-norfolks-aj-hadsell#
 
I agree with all of the above. But I do wonder about college athletes, on full scholarships---aren't they routinely drug tested? Would she be a heroin user and not be discovered by the coaches?

Was AJ on a full scholarship? Haven't heard that, sorry if I missed it.
 
So I've been thinking about the whole idea of Wes being framed (not that I necessarily think that but its interesting to theorize about) but what if the intent wasn't actually to frame Wes but just happened that way in their attempt to cover up an OD. Let me see if I can explain this clearly...If AJ did overdose and then the people were trying to cover it up and make it look like she was taken/ran away, they would need to plant evidence to make it appear that way, right? We've been assuming Wes was the one planting the clothes/card but what if it was someone else who was then leading Wes towards that evidence?

He said he was getting phone calls on a second phone and we have all assumed he was lying (as usual) but what if it was true. If Wes was dealing/ buying drugs and was smart, he would very likely have a second burner phone to conduct that "business". I'd bet some of his close friends/family also had that number and maybe one/several of them were using that number to call in tips.

Also, Wes said in one interview that he and another person decided they needed to break into the house for the jacket. What if that person was the one who planted the jacket? Then all they would need is drop some hints that AJ was creeped out this person, or that person was acting suspiciously and it would be pretty easy to rile up Wes enough to do something illegal leading to the break in and discovery of the jacket. And didn't someone else find the first piece of credit card.

Anyways, there are a lot of holes in this theory but it's definitely interesting to think about even though I don't necessarily believe it.

I think the above holds true if someone is covering up a murder. But I don't think anyone would do all that in the case of an accidental OD. Why frame an innocent teen for murder if it was a simple OD?

I think the cover up was designed to prevent the body from being found to destroy the forensics. JMO

If it was not Wes, then it was someone close to him. JMO
 
I'm not sure if you saw Arkansasmimi's post #51, but it seems that was the verbage they used because that is one of the categories available. There is no "overdose" category.

From her post:
From the Virginia Department of Health Office of Chief Medical Examiner http://www.vdh.state.va.us/medExam/documents/fam.pdf

What do “cause and manner of
death” mean?
The cause of death is the medical disease,
injury, or poison (alcohol, drug, or toxic substance)

Correct, that comes from the Virginia Dept of Health, OFFICE OF CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER...

I dont know where all the direction of if she were an addict or not is coming from. Its clear to me after reading the link http://www.vdh.state.va.us/medExam/documents/fam.pdf that AJ COD was from Poison from drug (heroine) and from this link from US Dept of Health, that it was a sudden or severe poisoning. So AJ died from a sudden or severe poisoning of Heroine.
I will say Just my honest opinion, but thats backed up by VA and US Department of Health links.

U.S. NATIONAL LIBRARY OF MEDICINE >>>U.S. National Library of Medicine 8600 Rockville Pike, Bethesda, MD 20894 U.S. Department of Health and Human Services National Institutes of Health
Page last updated: 15 June 2015


Acute

Acute means sudden or severe. Acute symptoms appear, change, or worsen rapidly. It is the opposite of chronic.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002215.htm


Where Found
Heroin is made from morphine. Morphine is a powerful drug, and it naturally occurs in the seedpods of Asian (opium) poppy plants. Street names for heroin include "junk," "smack," and "skag."

See also: Morphine overdose
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002861.htm

Which reminded me of the Sports Illustrated article that MPNOLA posted on another thread.
 
I think the above holds true if someone is covering up a murder. But I don't think anyone would do all that in the case of an accidental OD. Why frame an innocent teen for murder if it was a simple OD?

I think the cover up was designed to prevent the body from being found to destroy the forensics. JMO

If it was not Wes, then it was someone close to him. JMO

I do think the coverup was to destroy forensics, but I do not think it is out of the realm of possibility for someone to take the steps as they did to cover up an accidental OD.

Why? Because people under the influence aren't always rational. Fear is more powerful than reason in cases where a clear mind is absent and paranoia is present.

If the person responsible for the coverup was afraid of being found guilty for other charges, heavy ones (drug-related, especially if they supplied the ones that led to an OD), I don't think anything is out of the realm of a possible desperate reaction.
 
Was AJ on a full scholarship? Haven't heard that, sorry if I missed it.

I don't think she was on a full scholarship.
IIRC, she had financial aid for part of her studies. She had just gotten a student loan deposit shortly before she died.
Full scholarship would have paid for her schooling.
 
Drug overdoses are considered acute since it is a rapid onset/ high level of the drug that causes death. When death is caused by chronic use it is typically from organ/heart failure with the secondary cause being chronic use of drugs. For example, John Belushi was a chronic user but his COD was still acute heroin and cocaine intoxication because he died of an overdose. I understand the confusion but acute is simply meaning that the high levels of heroin caused death. A person could be a chronic user but if they die of an overdose it would still be called acute. Hope that makes sense...
 
I do think the coverup was to destroy forensics, but I do not think it is out of the realm of possibility for someone to take the steps as they did to cover up an accidental OD.

Why? Because people under the influence aren't always rational. Fear is more powerful than reason in cases where a clear mind is absent and paranoia is present.

If the person responsible for the coverup was afraid of being found guilty for other charges, heavy ones (drug-related, especially if they supplied the ones that led to an OD), I don't think anything is out of the realm of a possible desperate reaction.

There have been several OD's in our local area, sadly enough. And the rest of the people scattered, and sometimes the body was moved or hidden. But never did any of them do long, involved scenarios, that went on for weeks and involved framimg innocent people for murder. I just do not believe that anyone, no matter how irrational, would go to that extent if it was a simple OD.

If they had just left her at that home in Franklin, with no credit card found, no clothing found, no jacket planted, no long night of texting from her cell, nothing...then this would have barely made the news. It would have been written off as another sad OD case. JMO
 
I will share my experience to give you a bit of perspective. Back in 2012, I developed, after years of sinus problems, a severe, antibiotic resistant staph infection in my sinuses that caused scar tissue to form, eventually completely occluding the left frontal sinuses, causing me to have to have emergent, extensive sinus surgery. The kind where they peel back your face to access your sinuses through your upper lip. I had plastic stents sewn into both sides of my nose for 2 weeks post surgery. Post op, I was on 40 mg of immediate release OxyContin twice a day with 10 mg Percocet up to 3 times per day for breakthrough pain. OxyContin is almost identical to heroin in chemical structure and works in the exact same way on the exact same receptors in the brain. After having the stents removed 2 1/2 weeks post op, my level of pain was much decreased...those stents were hell! I stopped taking the OxyContin, planning to just use the Percocet as needed for pain.

Yep. That didn't happen. About 12 hours after my first missed dose, the withdrawal symptoms bargain. I thought I had the worst stomach flu ever. Leg cramps, sweating, chills, vomiting, diarrhea, runny nose. I felt like I had been hit by a truck. Being a nurse, it dawned on me that it may be withdrawals. So, I took half of an OxyContin. 30
minutes later, I was as right as rain.

I got in touch with my doctor and we set up a weaning schedule. It took me 4 weeks to wean off the oxy, that I had only been on for 2 weeks. I wasn't abusing it, I was taking it as prescribed. Heroin is MUCH stronger than OxyContin and a lot of heroin is cut with Fentanyl, which is 100 times stronger than morphine.

It is absolutely 100% possible to become physically addicted to heroin in two weeks. It's entirely possible to become addicted in a week, if use is daily.

I'm not saying she was. But I'm saying that it is wrong to believe that one cannot become physically addicted to heroin over the course of a couple weeks. There aren't many casual heroin users walking about for that very reason. Physical dependence on heroin always precedes a psychological addiction to heroin. That's why heroin is one bad mamajama. There's no other drug like it in terms of the swiftness to which one becomes physically addicted to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can become psychologically addicted immediately. But physical dependence? You barely even build up a tolerance to the drug in 2 weeks, unless you are using constantly, around the clock. Even then, withdrawls would be very mild, because withdrawl intensity depends on ever increasing dosages over time. Believe me or don't...makes no difference to me.

As for your situation: you were prescribed 2 forms of oxycodone to be taken around the clock for 2 weeks. The molecular structure of oxycodone and heroin are NOT the same...they don't work exactly the same. Heroin is actually closer in molecular structure to morphine than it is to oxycodone. You are comparing apples to oranges, imo.

But...I'll agree to disagree, and let the matter end here. :)
 
There have been several OD's in our local area, sadly enough. And the rest of the people scattered, and sometimes the body was moved or hidden. But never did any of them do long, involved scenarios, that went on for weeks and involved framimg innocent people for murder. I just do not believe that anyone, no matter how irrational, would go to that extent if it was a simple OD.

If they had just left her at that home in Franklin, with no credit card found, no clothing found, no jacket planted, no long night of texting from her cell, nothing...then this would have barely made the news. It would have been written off as another sad OD case. JMO

Oh, I agree that if it was an OD a cover-up would be foolish. But people on drugs do crazy things. If it was a cover-up, I don't think the jacket/clothes were an attempt to frame anyone. I mean, they knew she wasn't murdered so I think in their minds, the person would be found innocent but at the same time it would mislead the police and give them more time. I don't know...just thinking out loud here :)
 
As an RN, I think it would have been virtually impossible for her to be IV drug user in a dorm setting, playing a team sport. The term "acute heroin poisoning" makes me think she was given a hotshot. A large dose of a lethal drug intended to kill her. She knew something about someone that was willing to kill her or have her killed to keep it secret. Now to figure out who and what the info was.
 
I don't know much about drugs, but did the fatal dose necessarily have to be a large amount of heroin? Isn't an "average" or even a small amount of heroin just as toxic as a large amount in some cases? Just one example: a bad batch, where the heroin has been tainted by another toxic chemical.

Just re-thinking the terminology of the COD here and making the point that possibly the COD had little if anything to do with a drastic or large amount of heroin in her system.
 
Oh, I agree that if it was an OD a cover-up would be foolish. But people on drugs do crazy things. If it was a cover-up, I don't think the jacket/clothes were an attempt to frame anyone. I mean, they knew she wasn't murdered so I think in their minds, the person would be found innocent but at the same time it would mislead the police and give them more time. I don't know...just thinking out loud here :)

Just possibly there are cases when a cover-up comes into play even if a dose was self-administered and accidental. If one watches just a few episodes of Intervention, children are often seen "shooting up" or otherwise using drugs in the homes of their parents. Often the parents know it's happening but think it's not as bad, perhaps, as their child using in some back alley or shooting gallery.

Another thing: I can absolutely see why there might be an attempted cover-up after the fact if the death from an OD (accidental or otherwise) occurred on premises where if the body was found at the premises where it happened: that it could cast suspicion upon anyone and everyone with any relation to that location.

Most especially: if people at a specific residence have something they don't wish anyone to know.

Another thing. Does anyone happen to know where exactly AJ's boyfriend's (JC's) big birthday bash was supposedly held?

I never saw or heard WS mention "the candy house" anywhere in MSM or otherwise. I'm not sure if that house had any relation to the big birthday bash for JC or not. Does anyone have a MSM link to WS mentioning the alleged candy house? TIA.
 
You can become psychologically addicted immediately. But physical dependence? You barely even build up a tolerance to the drug in 2 weeks, unless you are using constantly, around the clock. Even then, withdrawls would be very mild, because withdrawl intensity depends on ever increasing dosages over time. Believe me or don't...makes no difference to me.

As for your situation: you were prescribed 2 forms of oxycodone to be taken around the clock for 2 weeks. The molecular structure of oxycodone and heroin are NOT the same...they don't work exactly the same. Heroin is actually closer in molecular structure to morphine than it is to oxycodone. You are comparing apples to oranges, imo.

But...I'll agree to disagree, and let the matter end here. :)

Your 100% correct MK and unfortunately I know all about this.

:happy4th: :websleuther:'s
 
I don't know much about drugs, but did the fatal dose necessarily have to be a large amount of heroin? Isn't an "average" or even a small amount of heroin just as toxic as a large amount in some cases? Just one example: a bad batch, where the heroin has been tainted by another toxic chemical.

Just re-thinking the terminology of the COD here and making the point that possibly the COD had little if anything to do with a drastic or large amount of heroin in her system.

BBM

Heroin is a VERY dangerous drug, especially for novice users. Let me try to explain why, and hopefully answer your question in the process. Unlike a pharmaceutical drug, heroin is not a drug that is manufactured by an industry where their are strict standards. If, for example, one were a novice drug user and they were experiementing with, say, oxycodone, they would know exactly what they were getting in every dose. It's exactly the same from pill to pill. Heroin is not like that. Batches are made by individuals, and there is competition for trade, and there are scams to burn buyers for fast cash. So...one batch might be cut with baking soda, sugar, you name it, in order to make a quick buck. Another supplier might deal primarily with people who are heavy users, and in order to get that repeat business, they generally try to sell the purest product they can. A novice could buy a bag from a scammer and never feel it at all, or just get moderately high. Or a novice could buy a bag from a dealer who specializes in addicts, and die from the first hit, because they haven't built up the tolerance that an addict has built up. The short answer to your question is no...it doesn't take a large amount of exceptional dope to kill someone who hasn't built up a tolerance to the drug. An addict might do 3 bags of the same batch with no ill effects at all. If the dope isn't great, then yeah, it would take a larger quantity to kill a novice user. Every batch is a crap shoot. And THAT is what makes it so dangerous for novice users.

Make sense?
 
:eek: Yes MK--that explains a lot. Thank you for your most helpful response, and may I say: so happy you (and others) are still with us! :woot:

:tyou:
 

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