April 8th wknd of Sleuthing

[Just the Fax]

[/B]

BBM Let's say that scenario is true, you think JA is going to call police and perjure herself on numerous occasions because she is covering for someone else? I can't imagine that being the case. Surely when this turned into a murder, she would have shared this information.

Perjury is a Class F felony in NC, punishable by 3 -5 years in prison.
After 2 1/2 years, these ladies are not going to get on the stand and bold face lie to the court and risk a prison term just to frame Brad Cooper.
It makes no sense and the jury won't even remotely consider...IMO

 

[cityslick]

Hello all.

I'd like to revisit the dress again real quickly. I have a theory on how it's possible he really did not know what dress she was wearing that night that supports both the 'he did it' and 'he didn't do it' conclusions. Consider this:

She comes home at 12:30am. She actually does change out of the dress and puts on a tshirt for bed (this part of BC's story stays true). Now, stop at this point and this is where the story goes in to two different paths.

Path A (he did it)
He strangles her in the tshirt she was wearing. The tshirt gets dirty (vomit, etc). He undresses her, cleans floor, etc. After he's done with the body, he knows she died in that shirt, so that's one of the first things that he washes. Police ask him about the dress hours later, he has no clue what she was wearing or if he even washed it because she took it off before he killed her.

Path B (he didn't do it)
She comes home, changes into the tshirt for bed. According to his story, get up, at some point changes into one of her shirts for jogging and goes out. He starts washing clothes. Police ask him about the dress, he has no clue what she wore or if he even washed it.

The evidence somewhat supports this story (and either path). He never went out of his way to hide that dress. Det. Young on the stand did testify that when BC and DD came back in the house, he heard BC ask DD 'what color was the dress, and DD answered 'black'. If he killed her in that dress, I find it extremely unlikely he wouldn't have washed it. And if he did wash it, why would he want to initially hide it? It would have been cleaned and not have had her scent on it.

Could the dress just be a red herring? Discuss.

 

[Just the Fax]

Somewhat OT.

Somebody mentioned in yesterday's thread that Brad's parents did not even attend their wedding. Hmmm. That speaks volumes to me, especially when he could not recall his nephew's name.

Do we know specifics about his close family members and the apparent distance?

http://www.newsobserver.com/content/media/2008/7/24/20080724_cooperstatements.pdf

This may offer a little insight......Carol Cooper affidavit

 

[cityslick]

Perjury is a Class F felony in NC, punishable by 3 -5 years in prison.
After 2 1/2 years, these ladies are not going to get on the stand and bold face lie to the court and risk a prison term just to frame Brad Cooper.
It makes no sense and the jury won't even remotely consider...IMO

I can't say if anyone is lying. Here's what I do think though. I think all these people thought he was guilty as soon as they heard she was missing, with no evidence even presented yet. I think they did make sure that their stories matched up to paint him in the most negative light possible. Not only do they suspect him to be guilty, they want him to be guilty. They hate him for how he treated NC.

I think there is more to the JA painting story that we don't know (and may never know). Maybe it was never really confirmed. Maybe JA thought it was confirmed but it really wasn't. If either of those are true, I don't find it out of the realm of impossibility that she got with CC and discussed this. It wouldn't have taken much for CC to perhaps have heard that NC mentioned that she might paint on Saturday and change that to 'she definetely said she was going to paint on Saturday.

 

[Just the Fax]

BC never mentions the trip to lowes or the purchase of a drop cloth. Listened to the depo and he told AS he went right to work the morning of 7.11.08.

I know I have stopped off at Lowes for 10 minutes to pick up something and would never remember that 3 months later.
Either way, he could not mention it. If he did buy it for her painting, then it showed he actually knew her 8AM plans for Saturday. The other would show he made prep for the murder.

 

[Cheyenne130]

Hello all.

I'd like to revisit the dress again real quickly. I have a theory on how it's possible he really did not know what dress she was wearing that night that supports both the 'he did it' and 'he didn't do it' conclusions. Consider this:

She comes home at 12:30am. She actually does change out of the dress and puts on a tshirt for bed (this part of BC's story stays true). Now, stop at this point and this is where the story goes in to two different paths.

Path A (he did it)
He strangles her in the tshirt she was wearing. The tshirt gets dirty (vomit, etc). He undresses her, cleans floor, etc. After he's done with the body, he knows she died in that shirt, so that's one of the first things that he washes. Police ask him about the dress hours later, he has no clue what she was wearing or if he even washed it because she took it off before he killed her.

Path B (he didn't do it)
She comes home, changes into the tshirt for bed. According to his story, get up, at some point changes into one of her shirts for jogging and goes out. He starts washing clothes. Police ask him about the dress, he has no clue what she wore or if he even washed it.

The evidence somewhat supports this story (and either path). He never went out of his way to hide that dress. Det. Young on the stand did testify that when BC and DD came back in the house, he heard BC ask DD 'what color was the dress, and DD answered 'black'. If he killed her in that dress, I find it extremely unlikely he wouldn't have washed it. And if he did wash it, why would he want to initially hide it? It would have been cleaned and not have had her scent on it.

Could the dress just be a red herring? Discuss.

The issue that I have with the dress is that Brad focused attention on whatever dress it was she was wearing that night by lying about the wine spill and big wet spot. Not one other person at that party has testified that Nancy spilled wine on her dress.

The other issue that I have is that he left the house without saying a word to the investigators about where he was going and what he was doing. Did he want to make sure that he could ask DD about it without having a police officer there with him?

 

[cityslick]

Somewhat OT.

Somebody mentioned in yesterday's thread that Brad's parents did not even attend their wedding. Hmmm. That speaks volumes to me, especially when he could not recall his nephew's name.

Do we know specifics about his close family members and the apparent distance?

My wife's folks couldn't attend our wedding (at the courthouse) either due to distance/money/time. There's not a deep dark meaning as you may think.

 

[Just the Fax]

I can't say if anyone is lying. Here's what I do think though. I think all these people thought he was guilty as soon as they heard she was missing, with no evidence even presented yet. I think they did make sure that their stories matched up to paint him in the most negative light possible. Not only do they suspect him to be guilty, they want him to be guilty. They hate him for how he treated NC.

I think there is more to the JA painting story that we don't know (and may never know). Maybe it was never really confirmed. Maybe JA thought it was confirmed but it really wasn't. If either of those are true, I don't find it out of the realm of impossibility that she got with CC and discussed this. It wouldn't have taken much for CC to perhaps have heard that NC mentioned that she might paint on Saturday and change that to 'she definetely said she was going to paint on Saturday.

CC was clear when she said NC told her at 5:30 AM on the cell she was probably going to paint the next AM and could not run.
I don't think this girl would lie on the stand about that. She seemed very credible and very sincere.

 

[Just the Fax]

The line pointed me to SH's affidavit.

Scroll down to Carol Cooper....its there

 

[cityslick]

CC was clear when she said NC told her at 5:30 AM on the cell she was probably going to paint the next AM and could not run.
I don't think this girl would lie on the stand about that. She seemed very credible and very sincere.

The issue here is there is no one else that can testify to the painting plans, only JA. So even if she told CC that, it is not a definite. You don't think it's possible that JA told CC 'yea, we were for sure going to paint' and then CC 'remembers' that it sounded that NC was more positive about it then she was. CC may not even believe she's lying about anything.

 

[sunshine05]

[/B]

BBM Let's say that scenario is true, you think JA is going to call police and perjure herself on numerous occasions because she is covering for someone else? I can't imagine that being the case. Surely when this turned into a murder, she would have shared this information.

No one can say why she didn't come forward. Could be she hates BC so why not let him take the heat. It could be that she was accused by MH while at the Cooper's that morning and had to stick to her story to save face. It could be that she was covering for someone. I don't know. All I know is that the story of the painting doesn't make sense and I have already listed the reasons why I think that. So maybe together we can try to see if anything makes sense. I can't wait for the defense to be up. Even though we are proposing theories about what could have happened, it is very doubtful after all this time that we will ever know what really happened.

 

[cityslick]

The issue that I have with the dress is that Brad focused attention on whatever dress it was she was wearing that night by lying about the wine spill and big wet spot. Not one other person at that party has testified that Nancy spilled wine on her dress.

The other issue that I have is that he left the house without saying a word to the investigators about where he was going and what he was doing. Did he want to make sure that he could ask DD about it without having a police officer there with him?

But he can't even remember if he washed it or not. He didn't say he washed it because of the wine spill. Why lie about the wine spill if you're not going to use that reason as to why that shirt got washed?

You actually bring up another point about leaving the house. He left LE in the house, not caring what they saw/didn't see. If I just did something really bad in that house not 12 hours early, I'd be a little freaked out that LE was in my house alone.

 

[Just the Fax]

The issue here is there is no one else that can testify to the painting plans, only JA. So even if she told CC that, it is not a definite. You don't think it's possible that JA told CC 'yea, we were for sure going to paint' and then CC 'remembers' that it sounded that NC was more positive about it then she was. CC may not even believe she's lying about anything.

Doesn't work for me.
CC was very clear that NC told her on the phone Friday AM.
I can't imagine she would interject that as a fact in their 5:30 AM call if it was just her recollection of JA possibly saying that later.

 

[cityslick]

Doesn't work for me.
CC was very clear that NC told her on the phone Friday AM.
I can't imagine she would interject that as a fact in their 5:30 AM call if it was just her recollection of JA possibly saying that later.

DD was also very clear that BC pulled a jedi mind trick on her by telling her the dress was black therefore believing the dress was black, never mind that fact DD spend much more time with NC the night before and was actually the last person to see her before BC.

I don't buy that story either.

 

[Tink56]

Okay. Nobody is forcing you to. So why don't you stop commenting on posts related to this since you aren't adding anything concrete to the discussion? If you want to present facts that counter what I am suggesting, please do.

I believe facts have been presented including the reference to testimony under oath. That fact does seem to counter what you're suggesting, IMO.

I've been following the case since '08, but I am a little confused. I read often, but don't post much after breaking my "addiction" to another murder and subsequent trial a number of years ago. So, maybe I'm missing something, so I'll ask directly. Are you one of the moderators? I've noticed on several occasions you posted directions to posters to change or remove posts, but I thought moderators were generally identified. I am just trying to understand what's going on.

:truce:

 

[less0305]

I just love all the bantering going on about the term lie...for one side, the lie must be nefarious...OKay then, I was in bed at 8AM, but I got out of bed at 8AM....which is the truth and which is the lie?...In the grand scheme of things I guess it's your perspective/
Brad says He and Nancy were working out their maritals problems..Truth or lie? and why would he need to lie in the first place?? Hummm Had to think hard about that one:floorlaugh: Here's another one, Brad says he had a copy of Separation Draft that Nancy sent to him. Truth or lie?..Well, he does seem to have a copy of that draft Separation agreement..So who here believes that a contentious separation, and un-negotiated terms on a draft be sent to the one she is trying to separate from??? Now, IF Brad had said his lawyer gave or sent him the draft..OK, maybe so but he knew it would show as coming from Nancy's email account..Why would he lie about that?

Brad saying he never yelled, cursed or belittled Nancy in frontof the kids!! OK now that was a blatant lie, as proven by an unbiased witness..Why lie about that?? Ohhh man this is only a couple off top of my head!!

If someone Lies or mispeaks, one always has to ask why would they lie?? How would that lie effect the matters at hand?? Not recalling someone's plans to paint at someones house, they didnt know ..much less details of that plan..How does that lie indicate CC must be hiding something and why?

Brad's defenders seem to feel between LE investigations and friends hatred for Brad, mean one thing..It was a conspiracy to frame Brad and he is the victim here and he couldnt have done it..:waitasec:...Time will tell just how the jury is assimilating all this testimony.:seeya:

I think Sunshine would have liked it better if JA had said, "I got out of bed at 7:47:51 a.m. and it took me 0:11:07 min/sec to move the dining room table out of the dining room and then I sat down and waited the approx. 2 min. left until Nancy was to arrive at 8 a.m.

If you're asked on the stand when did get up, you might say "By 8 a.m." and you really got out of the bed at 7:47. I might say I got up at 8 am when I really got up at 8:05 or 7:50 or 7:45.

It didn't take long to move a dining room table and chairs. I just moved two daughters - two full houses. One took about 7 hours last Saturday, and one took about 4 hours yesterday - that was two full houses of furniture and appliances. I don't think it takes much more than 10 or so minutes to move a dining room table and chairs and a cabinet. The 8:00 got up issue is a non-issue.

 

[Just the Fax]

DD was also very clear that BC pulled a jedi mind trick on her by telling her the dress was black therefore believing the dress was black, never mind that fact DD spend much more time with NC the night before and was actually the last person to see her before BC.

I don't buy that story either.

So, how many liars / perjurers now?

JA, CC and DD?

Any more besides Brad?

 

[gracielee]

Then why would she blame BC for her disappearance and not the real person NC was suppose to meet? If she was a real friend wouldn't she want to have the real killer come to justice?

Oh, about the money, I knew it was the 1st time for money 2nd time for trade.. I was just talking about both times in my statement.. I think she felt she mentioned it needed to be painted (as JA stated on the stand) but then maybe did not feel like doing it.. but still wanted help organizing.. so she was going to do it anyways.. we all do that... do lots of things we don't really "want" to do..

I've done that many times, agreed to do something and then said 'damn, I really don't *feel* like doing such and such.....' but I've already committed. I'm simply whining "I don't *feel* like it." I say that every time I clean the bathrooms......"I don't *feel* like cleaning the bathrooms".. Regardless of whether nancy was planning on getting out of the house more quickly than planned, the house still had to be sold. Still needed organizing. No way was that home ready for 'showings'. I think Nancy wanted JA to help her get the place ready to show. Nancy had given up on the idea of buying brad out, attempting to remain in the home. She wanted out ASAP and that place needed major organizing to get it ready to show. We've sold a home in the last four years. It's a lot of work to get it ready to show. And we have a fairly clean, well-kept house normally. I still had to pack up and get rid of probally half the crap in the place, move it out, to prep for showings. You want your house as sparse as possible, to show well, if you want to move that house ASAP.

 

[less0305]

Why did Brad buy the drop cloth at lowes Friday AM?

Theory 1. A sinister plan to line his trunk to dispose of the body
Theory 2. Stopped at Lowes on the way to work for Nancy's painting on Saturday.

Either theory works for the state.

Theory 3. I think he found out about the painting date via the stolen emails and he bought the drop cloth as a way to "prove" he knew about the paint date via some other way (i.e. NC told me). Why tho? I don't know.

 

[sunshine05]

Hello all.

I'd like to revisit the dress again real quickly. I have a theory on how it's possible he really did not know what dress she was wearing that night that supports both the 'he did it' and 'he didn't do it' conclusions. Consider this:

She comes home at 12:30am. She actually does change out of the dress and puts on a tshirt for bed (this part of BC's story stays true). Now, stop at this point and this is where the story goes in to two different paths.

Path A (he did it)
He strangles her in the tshirt she was wearing. The tshirt gets dirty (vomit, etc). He undresses her, cleans floor, etc. After he's done with the body, he knows she died in that shirt, so that's one of the first things that he washes. Police ask him about the dress hours later, he has no clue what she was wearing or if he even washed it because she took it off before he killed her.

Path B (he didn't do it)
She comes home, changes into the tshirt for bed. According to his story, get up, at some point changes into one of her shirts for jogging and goes out. He starts washing clothes. Police ask him about the dress, he has no clue what she wore or if he even washed it.

The evidence somewhat supports this story (and either path). He never went out of his way to hide that dress. Det. Young on the stand did testify that when BC and DD came back in the house, he heard BC ask DD 'what color was the dress, and DD answered 'black'. If he killed her in that dress, I find it extremely unlikely he wouldn't have washed it. And if he did wash it, why would he want to initially hide it? It would have been cleaned and not have had her scent on it.

Could the dress just be a red herring? Discuss.

Good post. Regarding scenario A, The problem with this is why would they have gone back to the entrance way and fought there. Since the sticks and ducks hold a lot of water to many in this case, they would have had to have been fighting there....which only makes sense really if she just walked in the door.

Yes. I think the dress is a red herring. They made such a huge deal out of implying that he somehow hid it, but he didn't at all and it never was even washed. That tells me she likely wasn't wearing it when she was killed. But it doesn't fit the State's theory of what happened so they blew this up into a big deal to distract away from the reality and that is....the dress was never hidden, the dress was never washed.