Armchair Psych Profile and JH's Background

[Curious Me]

Golly Gee, naive me, because if he was babbling through his oral exam, or students were complaining to the school, or he acted out in such a way that his doctor who is very connected to the school tried to get a team to access his dangerousness, and then he was allowed by legal washing of hands to wander off in his psychosis, then I think it's a whole 'nother story. JMO

 

[songline]

Again, there is only so much a school or a treating psych can do. If there is a direct threat to harm, they can call and report it to the authorities. If not, they can ask the student to be voluntarily assessed. If he or she refuses, they can drop them from the school, as they did in the AZ shooter's case.

Unless you guys want to change the law, there is nothing else the school can do. They cannot force a student to accept assessment and they cannot notify the authorities or the parents of anything the student may have done or said that does not constitute a direct threat of harm. They can't.

I know firsthand how little can be done, when and how. (Daughter MI)
But this is what I read:
“Fenton made initial phone calls about engaging the BETA team” in “the first 10 days” of June
That would have been 7 weeks before the shooting. Why did Fenton not rush this? Why did Fenton not see the urgency...
The signs would have been there IMO if he was that “F”d up by July 20th.
JMHO

 

[HastingsChi]

So why did abc publish that he was spitting and had to wear a spit guard? You think that's good journalism? Sources told them he was spitting. That's what the article starts with.
I am not sure when that editor's note appeared.

Unlike most news organizations who do not correct potential inaccuracies and inform the public of these potential inaccuracies, ABC News does.

Let's not get too far off topic and continue with this discussion. Frankly is odd that you have stated how you can't imagine that LE, the university or government would give incorrect info or lie but are so quick to accuse countless news organizations of lying...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II

 

[songline]

So can you tell me what that means? He didn't fill out a form so he is still a student there? Come on now.

And even if that meant he was still officially a student of the school, I ask, once again, what could or should the school have done? They cannot force him to be assessed. They can tell him he is going to be expelled if he refuses to be assessed but he took care of that by telling them he was dropping out. They can't notify the authorities unless he made a direct threat.

Clearly, he was not going to play by their rules. They have no power to force him to be assessed or diagnosed - no power. Nothing. Once more, the only thing they can do is say he can't come back to class without an assessment. Well, he left. That's it. Their limited authority over this student is ended.

To bad this Dr was written up as one who has not taken god notes on other situations.
SLOPPY WORK ? maybe.

I would like to know what she knew and when. but IF her notes were not accurate, we will never know.
Unless his note book will say "WHEN I TOLD YOU I MEANT IT" r any reference to her knowing.

 

[jjenny]

Unlike most news organizations who do not correct potential inaccuracies and inform the public of these potential inaccuracies, ABC News does.

Let's not get too far off topic and continue with this discussion. Frankly is odd that you have stated how you can't imagine that LE, the university or government would give incorrect info or lie but are so quick to accuse countless news organizations of lying...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II

And how do you know this story isn't going to be corrected in some near future? Because anonymous sources are always so accurate?

 

[February]

So can you tell me what that means? He didn't fill out a form so he is still a student there? Come on now.

And even if that meant he was still officially a student of the school, I ask, once again, what could or should the school have done? They cannot force him to be assessed. They can tell him he is going to be expelled if he refuses to be assessed but he took care of that by telling them he was dropping out. They can't notify the authorities unless he made a direct threat.

Clearly, he was not going to play by their rules. They have no power to force him to be assessed or diagnosed - no power. Nothing. Once more, the only thing they can do is say he can't come back to class without an assessment. Well, he left. That's it. Their limited authority over this student is ended.

It's not for me to decide if he is still a student there or not
Every school will have their own student status classification.

But If he is no longer a student then, why would Fenton even have to contact BETA Team about him? Why would she even care right?



That is my opinion

 

[Curious Me]

Again, there is only so much a school or a treating psych can do. If there is a direct threat to harm, they can call and report it to the authorities. If not, they can ask the student to be voluntarily assessed. If he or she refuses, they can drop them from the school, as they did in the AZ shooter's case.

Unless you guys want to change the law, there is nothing else the school can do. They cannot force a student to accept assessment and they cannot notify the authorities or the parents of anything the student may have done or said that does not constitute a direct threat of harm. They can't.

Can they/school/dr. as people just call his family and act like they're calling for him, just to give his family a heads up hint that he hasn't been at school? I know legally sometimes you can't, but I think I'd try to get around that someway to warn people if there was serious concern.

 

[HastingsChi]

His legal team must have told him if you Don’t want to get in more mess SHUT UP,
only talk when I am here..
While it is their job, to protect him, I hope they are in there every day talking and talking to get the details. FRESH
IMHO he is smart and can make up some chit...and tell it like a pro...
So the sooner they get him to talk the better.
JMO

They can deal with his hair color later

Curious to know if anyone is aware of when Holmes requested a lawyer?

If I remember correctly from the old general threads the weekend after the shooting we were discussing his lack of counsel and LE wouldn't comment on if he had an attorney but stated he was not cooperating...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II

 

[HastingsChi]

And how do you know this story isn't going to be corrected in some near future? Because anonymous sources are always so accurate?

Goodness...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II

 

[gitana1]

JH was told by the school that he needed to fill up a form to complete the withdrawal. He didn't fill it up.

BTW, even though it, IMO changes nothing when it comes to the power the school had to control this murderer's behavior or prevent a tragedy, eh did not fail to complete the forms he was supposed to complete. He simply did not fill in the portion stating why he was withdrawing.

That is not mandatory. You can't not be dropped just because you fail to divulge something. He was merely "encouraged" to fill it out. That's because colleges want to see if there are patterns in drop outs. Is a course too hard? Is a professor horrible?

The form never made it to some officials desk before the shooting but it was not withheld because he failed to fill out the forms.

And again, what possibly could the school do? Call him over and over again? Demand that he be assessed? And if he says no, then what? Threaten to drop him? (Yes.) Call the police? (Depends) Call his parents? (No.) Strap him to a gurney and haul him off the the hospital? (No.) Foresee a major mass murder? (Maybe, but then we are back to the questions of what they could do).

If the school knew of any direct threat, and did nothing, they will be liable. And they should be. Otherwise, their hands were tied.

 

[Curious Me]

Guess the doctor never heard "better safe than sorry". She's lucky he didn't go after her.

MOO

 

[HastingsChi]

It's not for me to decide if he is still a student there or not
Every school will have their own student status classification.

But If he is no longer a student then, why would Fenton even have to contact BETA Team about him? Why would she even care right?



That is my opinion

I think that the person, a psychiatrist none the less, who wrote the university's rules on that assessment who found something so troubling about Holmes that she brought it to the attention of the team would see his dropping out as a huge red flag. If she was in fact treating him in a doctor-patient capacity wouldn't she be ethically, morally and potentially legally compelled to have an intervention of some sort with Holmes?

If he was a threat of such a nature that he was displaying manic behavior like dropping out in addition to her fears he was a threat, as his psychiatrist shouldn't she at least have him committed on a 72 hour psych evacuation hold?

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[jjenny]

Can they/school/dr. as people just call his family and act like they're calling for him, just to give his family a heads up hint that he hasn't been at school? I know legally sometimes you can't, but I think I'd try to get around that someway to warn people if there was serious concern.

Absolutely not. They will be breaking FERPA. He is an adult. They can not tell anything to his parents without his permission.

 

[HastingsChi]

If the school knew of any direct threat, and did nothing, they will be liable. And they should be. Otherwise, their hands were tied.

Imagine the university's liability nightmare if / when both this info and the package arriving July 12 are revealed to be accurate....

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[Curious Me]

Well then, I'm sad to hear there's nothing people can do. I'm shocked, as well, to hear the school's hands were tied that tightly.

 

[songline]

Neither here nor there, but I can't imagine deciding to do something I knew would put me in prison for a long time. He seemed to know! Was it a decision more preferable than going back home feeling like a failure? What would ever make killing innocent people and prison seem more appealing? At the very least, I have to say, flawed thinking was going on in that boy's head.

Please don’t compare yourself to someone who is MI...
Your posts indicate that you are balanced

I am just kidding around with you…
But really common… the guy is clearly MI.

 

[shadowraiths]

If the school knew of any direct threat, and did nothing, they will be liable. And they should be. Otherwise, their hands were tied.

Yep. This is pretty much what it boils down to. Even if he were acting crazier than a loon, there is really nothing they, or anyone else, for that matter, can do. Well, outside of, perhaps having him arrested for disturbing the peace. But again, we've heard nothing about this sort of behavior. So, I'm inclined to doubt he exhibited such. In the end, and sadly, there is no real means to predict and prevent such tragic outcomes. Even had he made threats and fenton had put him on a 72 hour hold. The devastation he exacted occurred well over a month later.

 

[gitana1]

Golly Gee, naive me, because if he was babbling through his oral exam, or students were complaining to the school, or he acted out in such a way that his doctor who is very connected to the school tried to get a team to access his dangerousness, and then he was allowed by legal washing of hands to wander off in his psychosis, then I think it's a whole 'nother story. JMO

I feel like I'm talking in circles.

I know firsthand how little can be done, when and how. (Daughter MI)
But this is what I read:
“Fenton made initial phone calls about engaging the BETA team” in “the first 10 days” of June
That would have been 7 weeks before the shooting. Why did Fenton not rush this? Why did Fenton not see the urgency...
The signs would have been there IMO if he was that “F”d up by July 20th.
JMHO

That's a great question. I think it probably depends on what they saw or heard from the shooter. In this day and age, any signs of serious disturbance from a student should immediately bring to mind the possibility of violence.

It's not for me to decide if he is still a student there or not
Every school will have their own student status classification.

But If he is no longer a student then, why would Fenton even have to contact BETA Team about him? Why would she even care right?

That is my opinion

Who says he wasn't a student when she contacted the BETA team? I'm confused. She contacted them before he said he was dropping out, according to reports but once he dropped out, their efforts to assess his threat ended. That makes sense to me because any power they had ended when he left the school. The only thing they could do is to drop him if he refused to play ball, unless he made a direct threat.

Can they/school/dr. as people just call his family and act like they're calling for him, just to give his family a heads up hint that he hasn't been at school? I know legally sometimes you can't, but I think I'd try to get around that someway to warn people if there was serious concern.

I think they can. Maybe not technically, but what could anyone do? In the AZ case, they did speak with the parents. I think the parents wanted to know why he was dropped from the school and had a meeting with the school that included the shooter. But, in that case, they got permission from the shooter to talk to the parents because he was present at the meeting.

 

[songline]

Breaking News

ABC News is exclusively reporting that Fenton wrote the university's policy on threat assessment and in June alerted her concerns about Holmes to the university's threat assessment team; but when Holmes announced he was dropping out, the threat assessment team took no action.


More details to follow shortly..



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II

Does not sit well with me.
Cant put a finger on it yet....

 

[Padua]

I know every time I post I get reemed out but I'll do it anyway.

A college is not a country, city, or town. There is no jail. There is no psychiatric unit. It is a place where people pay tons of money to learn and research. People go to a college or university to better their lives, and the college or university strives to help students obtain those goals. Students go to school and drop out of school every day. Why is this different. Because he changed his hair color?

Should colleges and universities start monitoring every students day to day activities? Monitor emails, tweeter, facebook just in case something is going on?

True, he saw a psychiatrist at the university and was brought to the attention of a BETA team. But, what happens when he says he drops out? Do they mount their horses and warn the neighbors?

It isn't as easy as everyone thinks to have an adult committed. You don't just call the cops. For a mental health professional to have someone committed, you have to fill out a form at the court house. The court house forwards that form to a judge. The judge ultimately decides if someone should be confined against their will. It is not as easy as calling 911 and saying he is a threat. Maybe she tried to commit him and a judge said no. We don't know.