Armchair Psych Profile and Treatment

[shadowraiths]

For those interested, I've posted an excerpt from Colorado's statute nre "duty to warn" along with a case regarding issues of civil liability on the thread, "Mental Illness, Criminality and the Legal Process" ( link )

 

[Curious Me]

I'm considering all angles, and really don't know what to think at this point.

Just wonder if JH was a MI poser just to go on with his genius plan and find a way to shift some damage onto the school and his doctor. He knew more than the average person about MI and knew once he dropped out of school they couldn't pursue him. It really upsets me to hear his doctor could do nothing or did nothing but discuss this with a team, as their hands were tied. How many days was it discussed?

Are some of you saying his doctor couldn't do one darn thing to help prevent this?

 

[zvzvzv]

SNIP
Are some of you saying his doctor couldn't do one darn thing to help prevent this?

quite a few of us are.

 

[21merc7]

I'm considering all angles, and really don't know what to think at this point.

Just wonder if JH was a MI poser just to go on with his genius plan and find a way to shift some damage onto the school and his doctor. He knew more than the average person about MI and knew once he dropped out of school they couldn't pursue him. It really upsets me to hear his doctor could do nothing or did nothing but discuss this with a team, as their hands were tied. How many days was it discussed?

Are some of you saying his doctor couldn't do one darn thing to help prevent this?

We don't know any more than you do Curious. We don't know how long it was talked about. We don't know what made the Doc discuss him in the first place, so we don't know if anything could be done.

If we find out she knew a lot, then I think we will be shocked at a team not doing anything, and the doc/school/team members will have some big troubles coming.

If we find out she just had a feeling or he was just having a childish tantrum, then we will know she couldn't do anything.

 

[Curious Me]

Thanks everyone for all the good postings.

Are there any exceptions to the "Direct Threat" rule? Can a combination of things said in a session be pieced together to conclude it's a threat? I got a feeling though that the answer is no.

 

[February]

No, she can't. She would lose her license.

Yes she can call the Police on JH.
It is always the discretion of the Psychiatrist to detect if calling the cops is needed. They always have what you call a "judgement call" . If her words is really - JH is danger to others , then she should just call LE for that 72 hours evaluation hold... but then again , this will give us another question - how did we know she didnt call or she call LE for that?

These questions are endless

Here is a copy of the Colorado Law in this Area: more on the link about the 72 hour hold.

27-65-106. Court-ordered evaluation for persons with mental illness.

(1) Any person alleged to have a mental illness and, as a result of the mental illness, to be a danger to others or to himself or herself or to be gravely disabled may be given an evaluation of his or her condition under a court order pursuant to this section.

http://www.criminal-lawyer-colorado...-and-colorado-involuntary-treatment-laws.html

 

[February]

If you actually analyze it and assume more , she could have lose her license more for talking to Beta TEAM if she divulge informations on JH's medical records to them ( specially if JH is actually no longer a student there at that time )

Bear in mind that Fenton has 2 roles here. She as his paid psychiatrist ( being paid by JH's student health insurance - this is not FREE from the school, JH pay for this separately) and She as a faculty member of this school.

ALL IMO!


http://www.ucdenver.edu/life/servic...urance/student-plans/Pages/Psychotherapy.aspx
PSYCHOTHERAPY
Anschutz Medical Campus Student Health

The University of Colorado Denver Department of Psychiatry has contracted with certain providers for psychiatric services (Select Providers). This service is completely confidential. If you are enrolled in the student insurance, benefits are available at 100%, with no deductible, to $80 per session, limit 20 sessions unless diagnosed with a biologically based mental illness and certain specified Mental Disorders as mandated by Colorado law. For further information on these benefits contact the Student Insurance Office.

To schedule an appointment on:

Appointment Day Contact Name
Phone

Monday and Tuesdays Janice Shire, NP
Wednesdays Lynne Fenton, MD
Thursdays and Fridays Margaret Roath, LCSW
You may also call the new central number for the Mental Health center at 303-724-4716.

 

[songline]

Ah, okay, then I misread the school policy regarding 6 more months.

I still think the Docs there would have helped him until he found a Doc, and even helped him find one, if he chose to see one.

Clearly, he had other plans, and did not want to see a Doc. MOOOOO

Does not begine to matter...They can hopitalize someone against their will.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I don't know what she knew, if anything, but I am rather curious about one issue.
She can break doctor patient confidentiality and report him to the police if she knew about a serious threat to specific person or persons. She can also contact these persons directly. But with a plan to shoot up movie theater, the victims are not specific persons.
So, she can not contact them directly.
Can she still break doctor patient confidentiality and call police? Hypothetically speaking, that is. Not saying she knew anything about his plans.

And this is why I strongly believe that whatever "it" was that piqued Fenton's awareness regarding the shooter it IMO was non specific and being non specific she IMO followed the appropriate procedure of bringing her concern before the school's BETA group..

Of course just like everyone else here I can only speculate with the minuscule amount of facts known at this time, but for now I am definitely of the opinion that whatever "it" was that brought about the UNWANTED ATTENTION on the shooter.. That it was very likely non specific and even possibly just a highly educated and experienced intuition that this DR may have picked up on but had no concrete evidence of anything or anyone specific being in harms way.. I believe that if "it" was something of a nature which consisted of specific threats and/or any specific targets whatsoever that this experienced dr would have absolutely have broken confidentiality and sought out and involved the appropriate agencies(LE, etc)..

Her not taking that route leads me to the conclusion that the issue, statement, action, or behavior that she witnessed of the shooter was quite likely nothing major, nothing at all specific, and as I said even possibly was just this woman's intuition that she picked up on in just her regular contact she had with the shooter as one of his professors, admn, dr, etc..

Again with so very little to base and theorize on.. It leaves the spectrum of speculation wide open and widely varying from person to person and opinion to opinion.. But with that very little known and knowing that she did bring the shooter to the attention of the BETA group.. And as far as we know DID NOT seek out assistance from LE or other agencies ..*

I now have a totally different perspective and view of the shooter's withdrawing from the program.. Until now it's been assumed that his officially withdrawing from the program was due to the fact that he was progressing poorly, failed miserably on the oral testing that was given, and that overall the withdrawal from the program was even indicative of the spiraling and decline of him mentally..

I now am not at all certain that ANY of those aforementioned assumptions just listed have anything whatsoever to do with his decision to officially withdraw from the program.. I now definitely believe at the very least that it is a possibility that the decision and especially the timing of his officially withdrawing from the program having nothing to do with academics.. Nor anything to do with a decline in his mental health.. I now believe that the decision and timing of withdrawing had everything to do with Fenton's having become aware and/or noticing or having knowledge of the shooter being a threat or risk.. Again not knowing how Fenton became aware of any concerns for the shooter..as in did he blurt something out to her, or was there a specific action or behavior she had witnessed, or was it even more non specific than that as in more of just her intuition picking up on subtleties in him.. Those unknown factors and variables are critical details..*

But in speculating I find it altogether possible that the shooter after having given himself away in some manner to the dr, he immediately realized the err of his way and that the repercussions of her having even the slightest of suspicions about him..This could absolutely have derailed his entire months of hard work and planning for his mass murder..

The shooter had to counteract with a measure that would immediately halt any further unwanted attention his way which absolutely could have in some manner thwarted his long, premeditated mass murder agenda he had planned for opening night of TDKR.. That counteraction by the shooter was swift and immediate in diffusing the situation before it could even reach a level of real concern, worry, etc which is what would have likely ruined all of his many hours, days, weeks, and months of methodical, calculating preparation to kill as many as possible that late night/early morning of July 19/20.. And that is just something that the shooter could not allow(his plan thwarted)..

It is this that led to the immediate and official withdrawl from the program, from the college, and even physically removing himself from access to the campus.. This would halt in its track any further "issues" that Dr Fenton know posed as a threat to the shooter.. The timing of his choosing to officially withdraw from the program, the school, the campus, and even the apt complex HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT DR FENTON HAD THE SHOOTER ON HER RADAR, so to speak and the shooter knew that in order to neutralize that issue that the counteract had to be strong..

Well IMO it doesn't get any stronger and anymore absolutely diffused than when a person who for what was likely a minor, non specific reason had become on this dr's radar and she had brought his name before the school's BETA group.. What more efficient way to ensure the person poses zero threat in the least to the school, faculty, or students.. Than for the individual to completely and totally remove himself from the entire equation as a whole???.. IMO it doesn't get more resolved than that..

And IMO its exactly why I strongly, strongly believe that the shooters decision and especially the timing of his decision to officially, permenantly, and immediately withdraw fully from the program, the school, the campus, and even the student apartments.. Nothing to do with poor progression academically, poor testing on the orals, or anything even remotely related to academia or DECLINE IN MENTAL HEALTH ...

It had everything to do with his determination to absolutely carry out his long and well thought out plan of mass murder without interruption from a dr, who for whatever reason(variable still unknown) had put this student on her radar and informed the BETA group of his existence..

His counteract could not have been timed, not worked more perfectly than exactly how he executed it.. Chilling.. Absolutely chilling to think about the amount of well thought out processes, choices, and decisions that went into his making damn certain his agenda was carried out..

All jmo

 

[love_puddle]

Sorry if it has been mentioned before, as far as meds go, he could very possibly have been prescribed seroquel as well as other meds.

 

[songline]

Hey Songline, what is your legal basis for stating that this psychiatrist had the power to commit him to a hospital against his will?

In my experience, local police make the decision whether they will take a person to the hospital. If they do, once there, hospital psychs determine whether they will keep a person there, against there will.

The only power the treating psychiatrist has is to report direct threats of harm to the authorities. And if there are no such direct threats, then she can say nothing. So can you tell me your legal basis for concluding this psych had the power to do this?

Also, if she communicated her concerns to the rest of the BETA team, that means they were trying to set up a voluntary assessment. As I have repeated several times, that would be wholly unnecessary if a direct threat had been made. Instead, it sounds like this guy may have been exhibiting bizarre behavior that seriously concerned the psychiatrist but that did not rise to the level of reportable behavior.

Do you doubt what I am saying? Do you believe that a direct threat was made and communicated by Fenton to a whole team of mental health professionals and not one of them called the authorities? Or do you believe that a treating mental health professional has the unilateral authority to commit a patient against their will, in the absence of a direct threat of harm? If so, what is your legal basis for saying this?

Thanks in advance, friend. I'm seriously trying to understand!!

P.S. Glad to see someone else is up. I'm having serious insomnia!!!

This is what I believe - you can see dangerouse behaviour more then 5 weeks before a mass killing.
The spiroling down doe snot happen in an hour, it is not a ball tha is falling soen the stairs. Spirolling to that degree takes time.

_________________Snip from above link
The Denver Post reported that Fenton raised her concerns about Holmes with the university's Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team in early June. Denver's KMGH-TV, also citing unnamed sources, said school officials did not contact Aurora police before the shooting and that no action was taken because Holmes was in the process of dropping out of school.
__________________

I do not believe that they had no clues to take him in involuntary.
I just DO NOT.
If I was JH mom I would have then out of business.
the nature of that type of school should know better than anyone
right from wrong.
I would not want another child harmed because they are more then likely
not caring just because he was dropping out :what:
NOT BUYING IT.

I balm only him for what has hap
NO he did not spiral in the last month …no way it takes a while.
I balm the school for not doing what I would expect as a mom from that type of a school.

OK we are not supposed to blam the school.
But as A mom I would sue thier azz off.

 

[February]

Sorry if it has been mentioned before, as far as meds go, he could very possibly have been prescribed seroquel as well as other meds.

What made you say that? I mean of all thousands of these drugs, you mentioned seroquel
Please enlighten us about seroquel , ill google too but it will be nice to hear from you too

 

[songline]

Thanks everyone for all the good postings.

Are there any exceptions to the "Direct Threat" rule? Can a combination of things said in a session be pieced together to conclude it's a threat? I got a feeling though that the answer is no.

The answer is yes.
A direct threat is not required, EXAMPLE: self mutilation is not a direct threat some of them pull their hair out, they cut themselves....attempt suicide. Just to mention 2 out of hundreds of other ways you can hospitalize against their will. IF THEY ARE A THREAT TO THEMSELVS OR OTHERS - you don’t take any chances you hospitalize.

We do not know why his physiatrist was alarmed by his behavior. BUT SHE WAS ALARMED.

 

[Curious Me]

Then, why didn't his doctor call the police? Sorry, I think I missed the reason why she wouldn't want to do that. Would that make her subject to being sued? I'm in no way an expert, so bear with me please.

 

[songline]

And this is why I strongly believe that whatever "it" was that piqued Fenton's awareness regarding the shooter it IMO was non specific and being non specific she IMO followed the appropriate procedure of bringing her concern before the school's BETA group..

Of course just like everyone else here I can only speculate with the minuscule amount of facts known at this time, but for now I am definitely of the opinion that whatever "it" was that brought about the UNWANTED ATTENTION on the shooter.. That it was very likely non specific and even possibly just a highly educated and experienced intuition that this DR may have picked up on but had no concrete evidence of anything or anyone specific being in harms way.. I believe that if "it" was something of a nature which consisted of specific threats and/or any specific targets whatsoever that this experienced dr would have absolutely have broken confidentiality and sought out and involved the appropriate agencies(LE, etc)..

Her not taking that route leads me to the conclusion that the issue, statement, action, or behavior that she witnessed of the shooter was quite likely nothing major, nothing at all specific, and as I said even possibly was just this woman's intuition that she picked up on in just her regular contact she had with the shooter as one of his professors, admn, dr, etc..

Again with so very little to base and theorize on.. It leaves the spectrum of speculation wide open and widely varying from person to person and opinion to opinion.. But with that very little known and knowing that she did bring the shooter to the attention of the BETA group.. And as far as we know DID NOT seek out assistance from LE or other agencies ..*

I now have a totally different perspective and view of the shooter's withdrawing from the program.. Until now it's been assumed that his officially withdrawing from the program was due to the fact that he was progressing poorly, failed miserably on the oral testing that was given, and that overall the withdrawal from the program was even indicative of the spiraling and decline of him mentally..

I now am not at all certain that ANY of those aforementioned assumptions just listed have anything whatsoever to do with his decision to officially withdraw from the program.. I now definitely believe at the very least that it is a possibility that the decision and especially the timing of his officially withdrawing from the program having nothing to do with academics.. Nor anything to do with a decline in his mental health.. I now believe that the decision and timing of withdrawing had everything to do with Fenton's having become aware and/or noticing or having knowledge of the shooter being a threat or risk.. Again not knowing how Fenton became aware of any concerns for the shooter..as in did he blurt something out to her, or was there a specific action or behavior she had witnessed, or was it even more non specific than that as in more of just her intuition picking up on subtleties in him.. Those unknown factors and variables are critical details..*

But in speculating I find it altogether possible that the shooter after having given himself away in some manner to the dr, he immediately realized the err of his way and that the repercussions of her having even the slightest of suspicions about him..This could absolutely have derailed his entire months of hard work and planning for his mass murder..

The shooter had to counteract with a measure that would immediately halt any further unwanted attention his way which absolutely could have in some manner thwarted his long, premeditated mass murder agenda he had planned for opening night of TDKR.. That counteraction by the shooter was swift and immediate in diffusing the situation before it could even reach a level of real concern, worry, etc which is what would have likely ruined all of his many hours, days, weeks, and months of methodical, calculating preparation to kill as many as possible that late night/early morning of July 19/20.. And that is just something that the shooter could not allow(his plan thwarted)..

It is this that led to the immediate and official withdrawl from the program, from the college, and even physically removing himself from access to the campus.. This would halt in its track any further "issues" that Dr Fenton know posed as a threat to the shooter.. The timing of his choosing to officially withdraw from the program, the school, the campus, and even the apt complex HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT DR FENTON HAD THE SHOOTER ON HER RADAR, so to speak and the shooter knew that in order to neutralize that issue that the counteract had to be strong..

Well IMO it doesn't get any stronger and anymore absolutely diffused than when a person who for what was likely a minor, non specific reason had become on this dr's radar and she had brought his name before the school's BETA group.. What more efficient way to ensure the person poses zero threat in the least to the school, faculty, or students.. Than for the individual to completely and totally remove himself from the entire equation as a whole???.. IMO it doesn't get more resolved than that..

And IMO its exactly why I strongly, strongly believe that the shooters decision and especially the timing of his decision to officially, permenantly, and immediately withdraw fully from the program, the school, the campus, and even the student apartments.. Nothing to do with poor progression academically, poor testing on the orals, or anything even remotely related to academia or DECLINE IN MENTAL HEALTH ...

It had everything to do with his determination to absolutely carry out his long and well thought out plan of mass murder without interruption from a dr, who for whatever reason(variable still unknown) had put this student on her radar and informed the BETA group of his existence..

His counteract could not have been timed, not worked more perfectly than exactly how he executed it.. Chilling.. Absolutely chilling to think about the amount of well thought out processes, choices, and decisions that went into his making damn certain his agenda was carried out..

All jmo

IMHO if the school did not have anything to worry about they SURE AS heck buttoned up their mouths instantly.

something stinks so bad my stomach is turning.

 

[love_puddle]

It's used primarily to treat bipolar depression. It is used a lot for anxiety. Have met several people who have been prescribed it. I take it for that reason.

 

[February]

Then, why didn't his doctor call the police? Sorry, I think I missed the reason why she wouldn't want to do that. Would that make her subject to being sued? I'm in no way an expert, so bear with me please.

we dont know too if she called or she didnt call LE

 

[gitana1]

I don't know what she knew, if anything, but I am rather curious about one issue.
She can break doctor patient confidentiality and report him to the police if she knew about a serious threat to specific person or persons. She can also contact these persons directly. But with a plan to shoot up movie theater, the victims are not specific persons.
So, she can not contact them directly.
Can she still break doctor patient confidentiality and call police? Hypothetically speaking, that is. Not saying she knew anything about his plans.

Yes. Stating he has plans to murder people at a theater would constitute
a direct threat even if the identity of those he planned to murder was unknown.

This will 100% depend on why she thought he was a threat. I wonder if it will ever come out.

It will come out if there are lawsuits.

Unless [THE SHOOTER] told her specifically "I am going to kill people" or "I am going to kill myself", there is nothing that could have been done

Now, if he said either of those things, they'll have some major explaining to do about not altering the police.

Respectfully redacted by me.

So there are two different things we are talking about here. One is Fenton's ability and duty to contact the police and warn them of an imminent threat. If she received a direct threat of harm from the shooter and did not report it, and he acted on that threat, she opens up herself to liability. However, if he makes statements that concern her that amount to less than a direct threat and she contacts the police, she opens herself up to a breach of confidentiality and a lawsuit.

The second thing we are talking about is the ability to compel treatment. Earlier, I was stating that only the police can hold a person and then the ER makes the decision whether they can be held for 72 hours. Either you or another poster posted links that various persons other than the police can institute a psych hold, including

Physician (M.D.) Licensed psychologist
Registered nurse (R.N.)
Licensed clinical social worker
Licensed counselor or marriage and family therapist with special training
National Park Ranger

But, that is not very clear to me. I would need to read the statute. It makes sense that the police and/or park rangers could detain and transport someone for a psych hold but otherwise, if someone starts having a psychotic break in a counselor's office or doctor's office, they call the police who then detain the person. I do not believe they have the power to detain the person themselves (except to restrain a person from harming themselves or others).

After that, the patient is brought to the ER or mental health facility where yes, it makes sense that a nurse, or doctor or psychiatrist or psychologist or LCSW who is working at the hospital, or in conjunction with them, can place a hold on patient.

It does not, however, make sense that a treating psychiatrist or psychologist can issue a hold in their office. It seems the hold order must be made in the context of an emergency intake assessment at a hospital or mental health in patient facility.

But we need to know this for sure because even in the absence of a direct threat, the law someone posted allows someone to be held for an involuntary 72 hour mental health hold and psych assessment, if they are deemed gravely disabled (incapable of caring for themselves).

This is important to the debate as to whether those surrounding the shooter failed in any responsibility they may have had.

At this point, I see no indication of any such failure. But, time will tell.

 

[February]

something to think again :


Campus police, whose officers participate in the Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team, have said they had no contact with Holmes. Other team members reached in recent days declined to discuss Holmes.

so are these campus police/University police also part of LE ?

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash...trist-before/cbe629769f38fde555ff50c55141b857

The University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus Police Department strives to provide a safe and secure campus environment for students, faculty, staff and visitors.
Every police officer is certified in the State of Colorado as a Level One Peace Officer, which gives them full police arrest and enforcement powers
They are complemented by non-sworn, unarmed uniformed security officers. Police dispatchers provide coverage 24/7, year round, to campus facilities located at the Anschutz Medical Campus in Aurora
http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/UniversityPolice/Pages/UniversityPolice.aspx

 

[Curious Me]

we dont know too if she called or she didnt call LE

Would she be subject to being sued though if she called the police? I realize the timing of this and what was said to the doctor is most important. Keep thinking the doctor knew he was going to do something, and didn't even protect herself by doing enough. I think she probably just hoped he'd go away, wherever, bye-bye nice to know you. A lax stance perhaps.