ATLANTIC CITY SK: possible link to LISK and GB4?

[Justiceforever]

Not so sure this is the right thread but since TF (and others) is working on a theoty that connects the GB4 and AC4 and a particular person HA is often disscussed because of his relationship to one of the AC4 victims, I thought this tidbit might be best placed here. It may mean nothing at all but I found it a very interesting coincidence. I have been spending time reading about the Jennings murders

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74807&page=5

I came across a blog

http://jdpkiller.wordpress.com/

which lead me to ID site about a program they were doing about the LA. murders called brutel bayou.
http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/dark-minds/episodes/episode-guide-06.html

It was at this site that I came across comments by HA. Interesting to me because of the similarities between the cases. I never expected however to run into him while investigating a different set of murders in another part of the country.

What is his connection if any to these Jennings murder?
Could be he sees a connection?
Could be...
???

 

[Peter Brendt]

Not so sure this is the right thread but since TF (and others) is working on a theoty that connects the GB4 and AC4 and a particular person HA is often disscussed because of his relationship to one of the AC4 victims, I thought this tidbit might be best placed here. It may mean nothing at all but I found it a very interesting coincidence. I have been spending time reading about the Jennings murders

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74807&page=5

I came across a blog

http://jdpkiller.wordpress.com/

which lead me to ID site about a program they were doing about the LA. murders called brutel bayou.
http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/dark-minds/episodes/episode-guide-06.html

It was at this site that I came across comments by HA. Interesting to me because of the similarities between the cases. I never expected however to run into him while investigating a different set of murders in another part of the country.

What is his connection if any to these Jennings murder?
Could be he sees a connection?
Could be...
???

I had no time yet to read through all of it, but where is HA mentioned in connection with the Jennings Murders except for the usual internet slander? And isn't Jennings a slasher, not a strangler? Me is confuzzed now ...

 

[Justiceforever]

I had no time yet to read through all of it, but where is HA mentioned in connection with the Jennings Murders except for the usual internet slander? And isn't Jennings a slasher, not a strangler? Me is confuzzed now ...

No he is not mentioned in connection. In the comments section he made a comment on the Jennings murder documentary Dark Minds Brutal Bayou. I never meant to sugest he was connected in the killings. Just that I was suprised to see him commenting on a case that has alot of similarities to LISK. I was thinking maybe he saw a connection to his wifes murder. I encourage you and others here to read about this case.


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74807&page=5

 

[Justiceforever]

I had no time yet to read through all of it, but where is HA mentioned in connection with the Jennings Murders except for the usual internet slander? And isn't Jennings a slasher, not a strangler? Me is confuzzed now ...

Jennings was a "slasher" on two confirmed cases. The two known African American women were reported to have there throats slit. The others, all white, COD not found by me yet.

 

[Justiceforever]

Refer to

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74807&page=5

 

[Peter Brendt]

Refer to

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74807&page=5

Oookay, I have not enough time for another complete case, so I browsed only over the facts. Means, there are probably a lot of details, I missed, but here is what I see:

Atlantic City: Clustered Dump Site
Gilgo: Clustered Dump Site
Manorville: Body Part Spreading/Torso Staging
Jennings: Dispersed Body Drop with forensic counter measures

Atlantic City: Strangler/Asphyxiator
Gilgo: Strangler
Manorville: Dismemberer (probably)
Jennings: 2 times throat slit, rest strangled/asphyx.

Atlantic City: Regular visitor or local
Gilgo: non-local
Manorville: local in the wider area
Jennings: Local, only not grown up in the area

Atlantic City: Caucasian or Middle East
Gilgo: Well, I still say African-American
Manorville: probably Caucasian
Jennings: Probably Caucasian

Atlantic City: High and constant kill speed
Gilgo: Slow ramp
Manorville: Extreme slow but constant
Jennings: Irregular medium kill speed in average

Atlantic City: religious ritualistic aspects, body staging
Gilgo: trophy collection, drive-by revisitable
Manorville: Classical torso-killer
Jennings: Sexual predator, probably with narcissistic and/or sadistic aspects

Atlantic City: Medium organized
Gilgo: Highly organized
Manorville: Highly organized
Jennings: Low organized to unorganized

So, except for the fact, that the victims were either prostitutes or prostitutes with drug history or drug abusers, who maybe or maybe not sometimes worked as amateur prostitutes to get money for drugs, what are the similarities? And that HA commented, after all the slander and suspicions, he had to go through, that he may had an opinion, well, it doesn't make me exactly wonder. If it was the real HA at all.

 

[Justiceforever]

Thanks PB. I appreciate the time you took doing that comparison. It will help keep me focused. : ) I am not exactly the sharpest sleuth in the drawer ; ) Would love to se you and others join me. I seem to be the only one there. It's pretty cold. lease:

 

[mysterymom7]

Oookay, I have not enough time for another complete case, so I browsed only over the facts. Means, there are probably a lot of details, I missed, but here is what I see:

Atlantic City: Clustered Dump Site
Gilgo: Clustered Dump Site
Manorville: Body Part Spreading/Torso Staging
Jennings: Dispersed Body Drop with forensic counter measures

Atlantic City: Strangler/Asphyxiator
Gilgo: Strangler
Manorville: Dismemberer (probably)
Jennings: 2 times throat slit, rest strangled/asphyx.

Atlantic City: Regular visitor or local
Gilgo: non-local
Manorville: local in the wider area
Jennings: Local, only not grown up in the area

Atlantic City: Caucasian or Middle East
Gilgo: Well, I still say African-American
Manorville: probably Caucasian
Jennings: Probably Caucasian

Atlantic City: High and constant kill speed
Gilgo: Slow ramp
Manorville: Extreme slow but constant
Jennings: Irregular medium kill speed in average

Atlantic City: religious ritualistic aspects, body staging
Gilgo: trophy collection, drive-by revisitable
Manorville: Classical torso-killer
Jennings: Sexual predator, probably with narcissistic and/or sadistic aspects

Atlantic City: Medium organized
Gilgo: Highly organized
Manorville: Highly organized
Jennings: Low organized to unorganized

So, except for the fact, that the victims were either prostitutes or prostitutes with drug history or drug abusers, who maybe or maybe not sometimes worked as amateur prostitutes to get money for drugs, what are the similarities? And that HA commented, after all the slander and suspicions, he had to go through, that he may had an opinion, well, it doesn't make me exactly wonder. If it was the real HA at all.

If you've already said here, I apologize for asking (you can just direct me to the thread).

What about Gilgo leads you to believe the SK is African American? Nothing about the victimology would suggest that.

 

[Peter Brendt]

If you've already said here, I apologize for asking (you can just direct me to the thread).

What about Gilgo leads you to believe the SK is African American? Nothing about the victimology would suggest that.

Simply, that any SK can't ask for the genealogy of a victim or ask them weeks before murdering them for a blood probe to do some genetics. So the true part in the victimology, we have to look for is not, what we know about the victims but what he could have known when he made his choice to pick exactly those victims. And this guy picked four girls who have except for their racial appearance, not much in common on the visual side. So, either he is typeless, but then there would be at least one victim of another ethnicity in the mix, or race is one primary selection criteria.
Plus of course his need to paint the picture of a drunk white dude in the phone calls even he wasn't drunk at all. So why the need to paint this image. Because he is neither drunk not white.
And of course this repeating line about lifestyle. This mechanism of accusation and judgment pretty typical for example for some baptist churches in Harlem and so on.

 

[NoviceSleuth]

It was MB sister who said that the caller sounded like a "drunk, white man". That was only her opinion and not proof that the caller was black and was trying to imitate one on purpose by disguising this voice.

Also you mention many times that the GB4, JT, SG (& also the AC4) do not have any visual resemblance. They were all on the small size, same race, age, petite body type - especially MBB and ALC / MW and MB. Looking at all of their pictures, I think they do resemble each other and had the same characterics and body type. IMO

 

[Theforeigner]

Simply, that any SK can't ask for the genealogy of a victim or ask them weeks before murdering them for a blood probe to do some genetics. So the true part in the victimology, we have to look for is not, what we know about the victims but what he could have known when he made his choice to pick exactly those victims. And this guy picked four girls who have except for their racial appearance, not much in common on the visual side. So, either he is typeless, but then there would be at least one victim of another ethnicity in the mix, or race is one primary selection criteria.
Plus of course his need to paint the picture of a drunk white dude in the phone calls even he wasn't drunk at all. So why the need to paint this image. Because he is neither drunk not white.
And of course this repeating line about lifestyle. This mechanism of accusation and judgment pretty typical for example for some baptist churches in Harlem and so on.

How can you tell; "he wasn't drunk at all" I mean how do you know?

 

[Theforeigner]

It was MB sister who said that the caller sounded like a "drunk, white man". That was only her opinion and not proof that the caller was black and was trying to imitate one on purpose by disguising this voice.

Also you mention many times that the GB4, JT, SG (& also the AC4) do not have any visual resemblance. They were all on the small size, same race, age, petite body type - especially MBB and ALC / MW and MB. Looking at all of their pictures, I think they do resemble each other and had the same characterics and body type. IMO

NoviceSleuth, FYI, it was NOT MB sister who said that the caller sounded like a "drunk, white man".
It was MB's boyfriend/pimp, Johnny Terry (who claimed that he also recived several phonecalls from the killer) who said that the caller sounded like a "drunk, white man".


MB's sister, mother and LE stated about the caller (killer);

The killer sounded like an "older white guy"
Authorities tell CBS News he's likely white, between 25 and 40, is intelligent and street-smart
The killers voice was self-assured, a low voice, calmly mocking MB's sister.
"He was calm, in control," "He knew what he was doing." Amanda says.
"The voice on the other end was calm and bland, and never yelled or laughed" her mother, Lynn Barthelemy, said.
The killers was vulgar, mocking and insulting, according to the dead woman's mother, Lynn Barthelemy.
''If you accept it was the killer calling, he certainly had feelings of anger towards prostitutes.'' Mr. Cohen, Lynn Barthelemy's lawyer, said.

So their description point to a man in total control, absolutely not a person intoxicated by alcohol.

Here is the info on MB's boyfriend, among other thing saying the man was drunk:

Melissa's boyfriend, Johnny Terry also recived several phoncalls, probably, from the killer

1.According to Melissa's boyfriend, Johnny Terry, he too recieved taunting calls from someone he described as a "white guy".

2.Terry received over thirty phone calls during an eight month period, the caller mentions tattoos. Terry is quoted as saying, “He was threatening me. He said you liked to do some crazy stuff with Melissa. I know where you be at. Most of the time he seemed drunk. He knew who I was. He knew I had tattoos on my back.” One of the phones used to make these calls was a throw-away phone registered to Mickey Mouse.

 

[Peter Brendt]

It was MB sister who said that the caller sounded like a "drunk, white man". That was only her opinion and not proof that the caller was black and was trying to imitate one on purpose by disguising this voice.

Also you mention many times that the GB4, JT, SG (& also the AC4) do not have any visual resemblance. They were all on the small size, same race, age, petite body type - especially MBB and ALC / MW and MB. Looking at all of their pictures, I think they do resemble each other and had the same characterics and body type. IMO

Different hair colors. the size varies from small to average, different face shapes, different eye colors ... all the things people look first at show a wide variety. Of course you can argue, they were all females or that there is no extreme tall woman in the mix, but that wouldn't establish a type at all. But in the end, you want to see them similar? Be my guest and cover that base. I have seen that kind of victimology before, including the spread over two age brackets.

 

[Peter Brendt]

How can you tell; "he wasn't drunk at all" I mean how do you know?

He was leading the calls, he kept an eye on time, he set his psychological anchors with precision ... he couldn't have done it, if he would have been drunk.
And the "white drunk dude" always made me think how would someone distinguish race in a phone call. Only by speech patterns, right?

 

[NoviceSleuth]

So all three - MB's mother, sister and boyfriend - agreed that he sounded like a "white" guy. None had any reason to lie and were telling LE what the caller sounded like. Also after so many calls, he sounded the same.

 

[mysterymom7]

Different hair colors. the size varies from small to average, different face shapes, different eye colors ... all the things people look first at show a wide variety. Of course you can argue, they were all females or that there is no extreme tall woman in the mix, but that wouldn't establish a type at all. But in the end, you want to see them similar? Be my guest and cover that base. I have seen that kind of victimology before, including the spread over two age brackets.

Hair/eye color is not a concern to him is all this says to me. They were 20s, petite, and prostitutes. That says similarity to me.

 

[Peter Brendt]

... I borrow the "symptom list from you, hope, you don't mind ...

MB's sister, mother and LE stated about the caller (killer);

The killer sounded like an "older white guy"

How do you determine age and skin color in a phone call? Speech patterns, maybe the speed of talking. Both can be simulated easily.

Authorities tell CBS News he's likely white, between 25 and 40, is intelligent and street-smart

That's part of the FBI rubber stamp profile. They even gave it out in Phoenix/AZ after surviving victims had already described the attacker as black. So well, the hit quota of the FBI was in the last decade not what I would consider as reliable, especially not if I see a perpetrator actively using their playbook to give wrong impressions.

The killers voice was self-assured, a low voice, calmly mocking MB's sister.
"He was calm, in control," "He knew what he was doing." Amanda says.
"The voice on the other end was calm and bland, and never yelled or laughed" her mother, Lynn Barthelemy, said.

So, a drunk standard white loner basement dwelling rubber stamp-SK full of rage is ... always calm, always in control, never yells and never laughs, never even raises the voice. Funny thing, have you ever noticed that, when you try to simulate other people's speech patterns, in your first few attempts, you speak automatically low? It's because the brain is focused on the patterns and other details of speech articulation fall a little flat. You can experiment with that, just try to simulate speech and voice patterns from somebody you see at TV. So, low voice as sign, he was overly concentrated on what he did, total control -> definitively not the signs of a drunk persons.

The killers was vulgar, mocking and insulting, according to the dead woman's mother, Lynn Barthelemy.
''If you accept it was the killer calling, he certainly had feelings of anger towards prostitutes.'' Mr. Cohen, Lynn Barthelemy's lawyer, said.

The point here is, those are the words. Now if someone speaks words, we actually don't know are those words true or wrong. All we hear are the words. And whether spoken in truth or spoken with the intent to lie, who speaks those words has reasons. And if someone, who pretends to be drunk and isn't (see above) to tells about his motives and presents me with an exact copy of the FBI playbook, I become a wee little suspicious. Just because never ever a serial killer who injected himself (and the fact, that LISK made phone calls in only one case out of four indicates, it is injection here) into an investigation told the truth. They don't tell you what they are, they tell you as what they want to be seen. So the question is, do I have to buy his story or do I ask why he tells that story? Mr. Cohen obviously bought the story.

So their description point to a man in total control, absolutely not a person intoxicated by alcohol.

Obviously, we agree on that. However, the pressing question is not that he wasn't drunk. The pressing question in my opinion is, why he felt the need to deliver this picture of a drunk guy.

Here is the info on MB's boyfriend, among other thing saying the man was drunk:

Melissa's boyfriend, Johnny Terry also recived several phoncalls, probably, from the killer

1.According to Melissa's boyfriend, Johnny Terry, he too recieved taunting calls from someone he described as a "white guy".

Again, how to determine race in a phone call? Speech patterns?

2.Terry received over thirty phone calls during an eight month period, the caller mentions tattoos. Terry is quoted as saying, “He was threatening me. He said you liked to do some crazy stuff with Melissa. I know where you be at. Most of the time he seemed drunk. He knew who I was. He knew I had tattoos on my back.” One of the phones used to make these calls was a throw-away phone registered to Mickey Mouse.

30 phone calls is a lot, especially from someone, who didn't make phone calls in other cases, only in this one. Now, here is the behavioral trap:

- either Terri was a pimp, then attempt to torture him psychologically with phone calls probably never went over the level of "annoying". Pimps usually come with some degree of anti-social behavior themselves and a serial killer, quite anti-social as he is, would recognize that lately in the first few phone calls.

- or Melissa actually meant something to Terry. Well, then psychological torture is possible.

My problem is, how would LISK know which one of those two is it? To call a "boyfriend" anyone has to assume to be rather "pimp" makes no sense. And I can't even argue Melissa told him. Because every prostitute will tell you what a great guy her pimp is. Part of the scheme. So, LISK actually couldn't know, what was it. Okay, he could make a bet. And maybe he had seen Melissa and Johnny while he stalked Melissa and saw the way they treated each other, leading to the conclusion, he was actually more of a boyfriend than a mere pimp. But please, 30 phone calls? This was far beyond the scope of psychological torture and if it would have worked so great for a serial killer liking to torture people near to his victims on a psychological level, why did he stop in the next murders? It would have become part of his signature in all subsequent murders. But it didn't.
So, this wasn't about psychological torture. But there was a need to let it look as if. Now, looking a little around, who could LISK have in mind when he played sexual sadist 101, white drunk loner type on the phone? Oh yes, that is exactly the FBI rubber stamp again.

The real problem is, if he played that all, what would he be, if not the thing, he tried to sell with so much effort? Why so much effort at all?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Hair/eye color is not a concern to him is all this says to me. They were 20s, petite, and prostitutes. That says similarity to me.

Well, have fun with that then

 

[Theforeigner]

He was leading the calls, he kept an eye on time, he set his psychological anchors with precision ... he couldn't have done it, if he would have been drunk.
And the "white drunk dude" always made me think how would someone distinguish race in a phone call. Only by speech patterns, right?

All the reasons you give correspond with the man who called MB's little sister and MB's mother (one call, belive to be the same man, where he claimed he was a NYPD officer) and it was never claimed that that caller was drunk.

It was MB's boyfriened/pimp Johnny Terry, who said that the caller he claimed called him at least 30 times, was durunk most of the time when he called.
However, we don´t know for sure if Terry is telling the truth.

The thing is that the right thing to do, when stating somthing that you belive but don't know 100% sure, is somthing like; "I belive he was not drunk at all" or "In my opinion he was not drunk at all "

 

[Peter Brendt]

So all three - MB's mother, sister and boyfriend - agreed that he sounded like a "white" guy. None had any reason to lie and were telling LE what the caller sounded like. Also after so many calls, he sounded the same.

Yep ... if you count "in the same way contradictory" as "the same"