Attorney Client Privilege/ Alton Logan Ethical Dilemma

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Basically what you're saying is that everything is morally relative, very much the post-modern thinking of current times.

There are moral absolutes. Check the ten commandments.

As to your "what if"- what if Logan had been a burglar, etc, not pure and clean as the driven snow- the question, IMO, is irrelevant. Logan wasn't any of those things, or we'd be arguing a different case altogether.

And for all the lawyers out there whose brains have been transmogrified by the "law", I am sure there are many others whose consciences remain in tact. It does take a strong moral foundation and backbone to do the right thing. But then, that's our challenge on this earth, isn't it? Whether it's law or business or how we raise our kids. (Look at the As and how well moral relativism worked for them.)

Nothing justifies the living death that this man, innocent of these charges, endured.

I agree with you completely about the unfortunate outcome of this situation and I hope I would have made the choice to free an innocent man versus to uphold an oath to protect the rights of a guilty client. I was not reacting to the collective moral foundation that allows us to reach consensus on what is right or wrong. But even the law allows for relativism if a greater good is accomplished - that is the point here. We expect people to overturn a lesser obligation to fulfill what we consider a greater one.

The ten commandments say do not steal, yet one of our favorite works of literature, Les Miserables, is about a man who steals bread to feed his starving family and how it is a crime that is morally correct in some circumstances.

These same commandments also say "do not kill" but we have managed to justify war, the death penalty and slaughtering animals for food because we allow ourselves to interpret the absolute in a way that fits in with our current moral sensibilities.

My real objection here was not that people decided this was a morally wrong thing to do, but that they were eager to reduce the decision these people came to to something that came easy to them or had completely base motives.

Laws may appear absolute but justice is often relative and contextual. I do not agree with the decision Lyons and her colleagues made but I am not willing to make assumptions about why they did it or completely assassinate the general character of public defenders or negate other good deeds they done have based on how they did not step up to what I consider a higher moral obligation in this case.
 
This story has been in the news for some time, and has been much discussed and debated. The new twist for many is that AL, and not just the two lawyers many of us saw give interviews on television, was involved in the case. It isn't surprising it would be a topic of discussion here. Why not just stay with posting one's own thoughts or opinions about this, instead of assessing the perceived motivations or wrongful assumptions of other posters?
 
AL says that prison destroys lives(sorry don't have direct quote)...dang right it does...so why would she let an innocent man rot in prison for 26 years??? Seems she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

Murdering your daughter also destroyed a life...don't ya think???
 
I agree with you completely about the unfortunate outcome of this situation and I hope I would have made the choice to free an innocent man versus to uphold an oath to protect the rights of a guilty client. I was not reacting to the collective moral foundation that allows us to reach consensus on what is right or wrong. But even the law allows for relativism if a greater good is accomplished - that is the point here. We expect people to overturn a lesser obligation to fulfill what we consider a greater one.

The ten commandments say do not steal, yet one of our favorite works of literature, Les Miserables, is about a man who steals bread to feed his starving family and how it is a crime that is morally correct in some circumstances.

These same commandments also say "do not kill" but we have managed to justify war, the death penalty and slaughtering animals for food because we allow ourselves to interpret the absolute in a way that fits in with our current moral sensibilities.

My real objection here was not that people decided this was a morally wrong thing to do, but that they were eager to reduce the decision these people came to to something that came easy to them or had completely base motives.

Laws may appear absolute but justice is often relative and contextual. I do not agree with the decision Lyons and her colleagues made but I am not willing to make assumptions about why they did it or completely assassinate the general character of public defenders or negate other good deeds they done have based on how they did not step up to what I consider a higher moral obligation in this case.

The needs of the many don't always outweigh the needs of the one. And logic is available to all posters, and I've seen a lot of logic used to make their points. Your arguments continue to be relativistic so there is no further debate possible here. As I said, we're discussing behavioural facts and making conclusions based on those facts. No one's living inside the lawyers' heads- that's purely a relativistic approach. Based on the facts, AL seems to talk out of both sides of her mouth and shows a sore lack of integrity. And I was really hoping she was different from the rest. The impact of her decision affects generations. What has her speculated upon 'agony' over her decision got to do with her moral choices- the ones with the enormous living death consequence for an innocent man? He's the injured party here, not AL.
 
I agree with you completely about the unfortunate outcome of this situation and I hope I would have made the choice to free an innocent man versus to uphold an oath to protect the rights of a guilty client. I was not reacting to the collective moral foundation that allows us to reach consensus on what is right or wrong. But even the law allows for relativism if a greater good is accomplished - that is the point here. We expect people to overturn a lesser obligation to fulfill what we consider a greater one.

The ten commandments say do not steal, yet one of our favorite works of literature, Les Miserables, is about a man who steals bread to feed his starving family and how it is a crime that is morally correct in some circumstances.

These same commandments also say "do not kill" but we have managed to justify war, the death penalty and slaughtering animals for food because we allow ourselves to interpret the absolute in a way that fits in with our current moral sensibilities.

My real objection here was not that people decided this was a morally wrong thing to do, but that they were eager to reduce the decision these people came to to something that came easy to them or had completely base motives.

Laws may appear absolute but justice is often relative and contextual. I do not agree with the decision Lyons and her colleagues made but I am not willing to make assumptions about why they did it or completely assassinate the general character of public defenders or negate other good deeds they done have based on how they did not step up to what I consider a higher moral obligation in this case.

I couldn't have said this better and completely agree. Also, our integrity usually tends to grow and mature as we age, hopefully. How can we know what their decision might be if faced with it today,or what they went through because of this decision so many years ago. I've made decisions when I was young that I wouldn't repeat now, as I'm sure most have. But those mistakes don't negate the good I've done either. I have given up a job as the consequence of exposing the cover up of defects on medical parts. So it isn't that I don't have integrity. But, if I were 25 years younger, thought no one would believe me because I hadn't saved a part as physical proof, and/or I thought my children might go hungry as a result of loosing my job, I don't know what I would have done. They could have easily not been believed, hearsay not admissible and the man could have been convicted anyway and their sacrifice would have been of no good to him.

There would be an easy way to encourage this to never happen again. There should be a better checks and balance in place to prevent law enforcement from playing justice as if it is a game to be won or lost. The attorneys only had hearsay evidence. Law enforcement had the physical evidence that would have cleared him.
 
SNIP

There are moral absolutes. Check the ten commandments.

SNIP

And for all the lawyers out there whose brains have been transmogrified by the "law", I am sure there are many others whose consciences remain in tact. It does take a strong moral foundation and backbone to do the right thing. But then, that's our challenge on this earth, isn't it? Whether it's law or business or how we raise our kids. (Look at the As and how well moral relativism worked for them.)

Nothing justifies the living death that this man, innocent of these charges, endured.


I certainly admire the Ten Commandments. They provide an excellent moral compass, but I don't consider them to be absolutes.

For example, should a daughter honor her Father if he rapes her? Does thou shalt not kill cover a situation where killing one person will save two others?

As for admonishing lawyers to do the right thing, I would contend that for every instance where the attorney-client privilege traps a defense attorney in a wrongful conviction situation such "Logan" (legal ethics versus morality), there are thousands of cases, if not ten of thousands, where prosecutors hold back exonerating and/or exculpatory evidence from the defense. These far more numerous cases lead to far more numerous wrongful convictions than those that are similar to "Logan".

FWIW
 
SNIP

My real objection here was not that people decided this was a morally wrong thing to do, but that they were eager to reduce the decision these people came to to something that came easy to them or had completely base motives.

Laws may appear absolute but justice is often relative and contextual. I do not agree with the decision Lyons and her colleagues made but I am not willing to make assumptions about why they did it or completely assassinate the general character of public defenders or negate other good deeds they done have based on how they did not step up to what I consider a higher moral obligation in this case.

Superb

All would do something to free him, but none know what would free him.
 
Okay, we've managed to establish that none of us has any respect for the defense team's morals. JB is most likely a horny, egotistical, fame-crazed fool. LBK and HL have blotches on their reputations involving possible evidence tampering and suspected violations of privilege. TM is in some kind of legal halfway house status in CA for funky financial dealings. Lyons made an unfortunate choice to protect someone's client from the DP by keeping quiet about the fact she knew another man was innocent of the crime, although it would have served her conscience and perhaps not the innocent.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the above appraisal

It makes us feel better to assume we are morally superior, I understand.

Love your posts, dear cecybeans, but I (singular) must assume that you are speaking only for yourself and?? _________. Please fill in the blank, coz I don't want to
presume that you would show moral superiority by speaking for all the rest of us writing on this thread.

(Although in this case I’d rather admire the defense team at some point because I’m worried their shortcomings may be grounds for appeal)

I wanted to admire the newest addition to the team, Professor AL, because I don't admire JB; wanted to admire TM because he's from my State, but am still
on hold for findings to be published by local Bar; want to admire LKB because of her fine reputation, but now must find out more info from you about the
evidence tampering controversy. Please clarify. Thanks.

I personally feel much better when I'm "high" on my idealization of a public figure because I sure don't like the crash that comes with disillusionment.
I was an obsessed viewer of the OJ trial, still have every tape of every tiny little court proceeding from the old Court T.V., and throughout it all though
I didn't agree with the Jury's verdict, I never lost my idealization and respect for Johnnie Cochran. I also admired the lawyering of F. Lee Bailey, though
there may have been issues which I questioned. I did believe that OJ had a "dream" of a defense team. By contrast, I thought the Prosecution
appeared inept and ill-prepared. I then read every book that came out by all of the major and minor players who were writing back then.
After all of that, I get to have a citizen's opinion without reading Cicero or being pushed into the morally-superior corner wearing a dunce hat.

. . . But also look at history; some of the morals we take for granted today have undergone dramatic evolution.

I considered the above in reviewing the credentials of Professor AL, recalling the time-frame when she must have been in college and law school, and
the zeitgeist or cultural disposition back then. I recalled a male friend who came out of law school looking like Thomas Jefferson complete with long pony-tail
and went the defense route. I understand the shaping of a career professional; I, too, was once "shaped."

And, yes, I have appreciation for the progress of history which shifts our perceptions of good/evil and right/wrong, though I believe that there are certain
immutable values. Call me morally superior if you must. But to those who know me, I'm one who searches for "truth," then calls it as she sees it.
Sometimes I see it wrongly.

Context and relativity are crucial in the case of the deceased child, Caylee Anthony, where truth was lost from the get-go. Most of the people following
this case have been literally driven bezerk by news of the massive deception perpetrated by this defendant/mother--and sometimes by some of her
family, it appears--on the very law enforcement agents whom they turned to for help. I've yet to hear even so much as an "I'm sorry" uttered for any
one of the lies by the responsible parties. And why should any citizen even deign to care about such nonsense? Why, indeed? Who has been asked to
foot the bill for all of the resources, personnel, and hours upon hours of investigations, court time, etc. etc.? WE, the people, must pay!

When I hear of another case where there was a parallel massive deception--this time perpetrated by lawyers on behalf of a defendant--I tend to get fearful
with a gut-wrenching disgust which you may call "moral superiority," but which I call my honest, human, gut-level truth. As a citizen, I get to react
rather than simply digest the notion that the Law knows of no other path [than withholding the truth]. That is just too dismal and way too disillusioning
for me to bear!

Finally, about the truthful plight of the pitiful lost child, I am hopeful that someone in this case is bold enough to display moral superiority on her behalf.
 
Sorry, I should have qualified that. It was an impression I was getting from the tone of various posts here that some folks were passing judgment on another person for making the wrong choice in a what was basically a moral conundrum. The fact that it appeared easy for them to ascribe baser motives to the person for doing so, or assume they did not agonize at all over the decision, made me think that these people were feeling morally superior. My apologies if you found the first person plural offensive; I was simply including myself in that group.

cecybeans, I read your post 210 and enjoyed it very much. I enjoyed it so much, I read it a second time. Most of your points I can completely agree with, but would like to address a couple at this time.

As you are aware, I have been a vocal critic of the lack of action by the 3 attorneys who shared knowledge of Alton Logan's innocence. I have been most critical of Andrea Lyon even though she was not a party who possessed this information with first hand knowledge. Her involvement included the preparation of the affidavit and the notarization of the two public defender's signatures.

I have been most critical of her because of her well publicized statements such as “You see something wrong, you do something about it.” She has crafted a reputation as someone who "cares very deeply about a human being in a terrible situation."

This very intelligent, highly educated, legal scholar did, in fact, see something very wrong but contrary to her published statements, did nothing about it. She was aware of an innocent human being in a terrible situation but did nothing about it, contrary to her published statements.

I'm sorry if my outrage at this contradiction of her stated words versus her lack of action came across to you as my having a feeling of moral superiority. I did not mean any of my words from that standpoint. I do not believe that I am morally superior to anyone. I have explained, with personal revelation as to my past, why I feel so passionate about someone who has been wrongfully incarcerated. I feel Ms. Lyon is wrong with her lack of action versus her publicized statements of concern.

I am also unable to understand the abstract analogies that have been presented in some posts as to their relevance in this matter. Your post asked what if Alton Logan was a rapist. Other's have asked would I sacrifice my career if his incarceration period was only a month or a year. Other posts have even included questions of whether I would give up my life, or my children's lives, for his innocence.

This discussion is not about an abstract hypothetical situation. It is about a very real innocent human being who was allowed to be caged like an animal for 26 long real years. It is about the very real absence of action by people who were in full knowledge of his innocence.

This lack of action on Alton Logan's behalf outrages me, but does not make me feel morally superior.
 
. . . I do not agree with the decision Lyons and her colleagues made but I am not willing to make assumptions about why they did it or completely assassinate the general character of public defenders or negate other good deeds they done have based on how they did not step up to what I consider a higher moral obligation in this case.

Who made attributions of motivation, i.e. questioned why they did or didn't do it? Who assassinated the general character of public defenders? (Why some of my
best friends are public defenders) Are any of the KCA defense attorneys public defenders?

It appears that you're continuing to harangue posters with your accusatory generalizations, and that doesn't feel OK.
 
Verité;3820394 said:
Who made attributions of motivation, i.e. questioned why they did or didn't do it? Who assassinated the general character of public defenders? (Why some of my
best friends are public defenders) Are any of the KCA defense attorneys public defenders?

It appears that you're continuing to harangue posters with your accusatory generalizations, and that doesn't feel OK.

What does that mean? BOLDED
Have read that over and over and don't get it. This whole thread is very iffy to me.
 
Superb

All would do something to free him, but none know what would free him.

This just is not so. In my previous long post where I may have displayed unintended moral superiority, I suggested certain paths that any of the three
lawyers on the case could have taken if they were not professionally able to "tell the truth." There is no lawyer gene, that I know of, in the human body.
All three were, in the final analysis, human beings.

I have the impression that you are bound by a certain professional opinion which transcends any other. I'll respectfully bow out of the debate.
 
Verité;3820394 said:
Who made attributions of motivation, i.e. questioned why they did or didn't do it? Who assassinated the general character of public defenders? (Why some of my
best friends are public defenders) Are any of the KCA defense attorneys public defenders?

It appears that you're continuing to harangue posters with your accusatory generalizations, and that doesn't feel OK.

Seems kinda harsh. Not used to such big words so I went to the dic.

ha⋅rangue
–noun
1. a scolding or a long or intense verbal attack; diatribe.
2. a long, passionate, and vehement speech, esp. one delivered before a public gathering.
3. any long, pompous speech or writing of a tediously hortatory or didactic nature; sermonizing lecture or discourse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ac⋅cu⋅sa⋅to⋅ry
–adjective
containing an accusation; accusing: an accusatory look.
 
. . .My real objection here was not that people decided this was a morally wrong thing to do, but that they were eager to reduce the decision these people came to to something that came easy to them or had completely base motives.

And who was "eager" to do all that you say above?
 
Seems kinda harsh. Not used to such big words so I went to the dic.

ha⋅rangue
–noun
1. a scolding or a long or intense verbal attack; diatribe.
2. a long, passionate, and vehement speech, esp. one delivered before a public gathering.
3. any long, pompous speech or writing of a tediously hortatory or didactic nature; sermonizing lecture or discourse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ac⋅cu⋅sa⋅to⋅ry
–adjective
containing an accusation; accusing: an accusatory look.

Nonsense!
 
Verite I am sorry that my posts came across as haranguing or accusatory; it was not my intention. I don't like what this attorney did and I see her actions as hypocritical. I would hope that I would make a better choice given the opportunity.

I have enjoyed the comments others have made here who are in the legal profession because it helps me put it in the context of their field, which is where this condundrum has occurred, instead of in mine where I enjoy not having to daily wrestle with such legal vs. moral dilemmas. What I did not enjoy was what I perhaps perceived as a rush to judgment about her motivations and the assumption that if some people are able to overcome conflicting obligations at great cost, then we can instantaneously condemn those who do not without perhaps mercifully considering any mitigating factors.

Since the thread is about discussing the legal dilemmas of client privilege I was hoping it would be more theoretical and less about personal vilification. I did not wish to point the finger at particular posts and thought that if people did not think my objections applied to them they would overlook my comments. I admire and agree with these same posters on many other issues. I will be glad to provide specific examples earlier in the thread if you would like me to PM them.

I included myself in the moral relativism category because I am guilty of passing judgement on all Anthonys as to their intent when I see them involved in criminal activities. I had to pause longer to mentally convict this woman because she has not technically committed a criminal act. Although I vehemently disagree with her on principle, and although I do not subscribe to her moral argument, I was not willing to ascribe motives to her actions.
 
any person that lets another person sit in jail when they know they are innocent and they do nothing about it... is evil

so what ? you lose your job here is a newsflash GO GET ANOTHER JOB geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh


people that knew and did nothing are rotten evil

its just my opinion, but holy cow

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

reminds me of green mile where the one warden says something like... "what do I say to God on Judgement day? That I was just doing my job??"



I really wonder how different the world might be if more people thought that way.
 
Sorry, I should have qualified that. It was an impression I was getting from the tone of various posts here that some folks were passing judgment on another person for making the wrong choice in a what was basically a moral conundrum. The fact that it appeared easy for them to ascribe baser motives to the person for doing so, or assume they did not agonize at all over the decision, made me think that these people were feeling morally superior. My apologies if you found the first person plural offensive; I was simply including myself in that group.

I don't see this as a moral conundrum. It seems pretty clear to me that participating in the wrongful imprisonment of an innocent man is a bad thing. A creative, intelligent person like AL could have found a way out of this situation.

And btw - it wouldn't matter to me one bit if Logan was a horrible person. I have no idea who he is as an individual. I'd be arguing the same side if this guy was a serial killer.
 
I think it is easy to get outraged and point to the cases where attorney client privilege doesn't work but it is really one of the fundamental parts that makes our justice system work *most* of the time.

What is the alternative? In this case that the real killer wouldn't have even disclosed that info to his attorney's since it could be used against him? So he just lives out his whole life and dies with his secret? The wrongly accused stays in jail for his entire life?

How many lawyers do you think have taken info like this to their graves because their client never waived privilege upon death? The only thing truly unique about this situation is that they were able to tell.

No one is forced to be an attorney. No one is forced to be a defense attorney. They know the rules that they will be bound by. I personally have great respect for people that abide by the rules they agreed to even when breaking them would feel better.
 
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