Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #4

[al66pine]

People Working in Others' Homes?

I do much of my job in peoples homes and yes, have taken photos of bizarre or amusing things. My clients trust me very well and know I’d never abuse the privilege however if any had suspicious deaths surrounding the home you bet I’d chat it up!

@303gmf
Without knowing the nature of your work in other ppl's homes, I'm not directing this post to you.

If initially seeing The Wall as "bizarre or amusing," that's one thing for the painter --- his own amusement. Doubting that he would have foreseen any suspicious death until AFTER news on this broke.

I hope if persons working in others' homes see something they believe later suggests a "suspicious death" that they would contact LE, NOT the media.

As someone else posted (sorry, forgot who but TYVM), if painter thought the drawings were made by children and suggested they indicated a mental illness, again, imo, seems the appropriate action would be contacting the VIC child protective services (by whatever name), NOT contacting media.

imo. icbw.

 

[jjleroche]

I am not sure they need to prove the intent. If they find searches of amatoxin, or fine grinders for sale, it is great, but you don’t need it if you read Christie’s books. Or, the recipe for a grinder but no grinder in the house. (SP could be the source as well. Did ER like that pepper set? Use in on SP’s food? Where is it?) I think it is the means or the method that are hard to prove. We are talking about finding the spores of amanita phalloides in the victims’ stools, or the tiny amounts of amanita phalloides in the house. Or, as we still don’t know, traces of what else killed the three people. No one in his right mind should be keeping such toxin in a powered form in the house, where the kids live. It might come up to involuntary manslaughter, but if indeed the origin of amatoxin is traced to her house, I’d view it the same way like some mad dads who leave loaded guns in full public view in the house where kids live. Maybe worse, as with guns, there is a reason to obtain them, with amanita phalloides, none.

Intention to murder does indeed need to be proven in the jurisdiction of Victoria, Australia.
As far as I am aware, Agatha Christie's books do not take into account the jurisdiction of Victoria's requirements in order for a charge of murder to be proven.

In Victoria, murder is a common law offence, which means its elements are defined by the courts, rather than having basis in legislation or statute.

From my post #728 - In Victoria, in order to prove a charge of murder, the prosecution must demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused:

• Voluntarily committed acts which caused the victim’s death;
• Had no lawful justification or defence for those acts.
• Voluntarily committed acts which caused the victim’s death;
• Had the intention to kill, or cause really serious injury or knowing it was probable that death or serious injury would result; and
• Had no lawful justification or defence for those acts.

Additionally, Agatha Christie's murder mysteries are classified as works of fiction, and were written mainly in the 1930's. Many jurisdictions have amended statutes since then. MOO

 

[Rumination1]

Laaaazzzyyyy owner....

No not really
My experience tells me that’s how it is commonly done
Ie the agent organises for trades to go in and do stuff . That way the costs are applicable on the tax return
Sure some landlords do work themselves or organise their own trades but the agent setting it up is common

 

[al66pine]

Interiors of Homes. Taking Pix? Providing to Media?

A lot of my family biz involves attending residential properties. Taking before and after pics is very much common practice.

@Doesitmakesense Not directing this post to you as I don't know the nature of your business.

In some types of businesses, taking pix is/would be "a very much common pratice."

Offhand I cannot conjure up any type of business which would commonly contact media to provide interior photos of homes of private/non-celebrity individuals, to be included in general interest publications, aside from paparazzi. Maybe I am overlooking something.

 

[Rumination1]

I am so hoping something happens soon to get some clarity. Four people don’t just eat a meal and three die without there being a cause

 

[al66pine]

Confessions? Hands in the Church Finances?

It is a Baptist church. Are Baptist priests listening to confessions, like Catholic ones, on a regular basis?
Indeed, they all come from the same family - and church. Anything could have happened, someone stole the church money, someone confided of something "sinful". We really don't know the motive. It is lower on my priority totem than EP's lunch, but still possible.

@Charlot123 Thanks for your post w creative thinking.
I mean that in a good way .
Had not occurred to me at all.
Not pointing a finger at anyone, just thinking more broadly.

 

[kittythehare]

I am so hoping something happens soon to get some clarity. Four people don’t just eat a meal and three die without there being a cause

Police have indicated that it may take several months.

It never happens in our time, we're mere observers.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

<modsnip - quoted post and response to it were removed>

I think there will be more developments in this case. But I also think there's a huge possibility EP will remain uncharged through lack of evidence, possibly the opinions of her ex husband will be considered malicious, some people will believe she's got away with murder, others will think she's been a victim of terrible circumstance, and others will just be undecided.

I would be very surprised if this case ever makes it to charges never mind going to court. If no-one can say for sure where the group ingested the poison it is possible they were intentionally or accidentally murdered by someone else entirely. JMO MOO

 

[Baby baby Jane]

No developments and no news I suppose. Sometimes I follow a case and it just... fades away... there's cases on this site that were super intense in the news and youtubers going in deep for months (such as poor little Michael Monkey Vaughan, Ohio, USA) then all of a sudden nothing and there's no updates, no developments, just radio silence and one starts to realise... that's it, maybe this is never to be solved.

I think there will be more developments in this case. But I also think there's a huge possibility EP will remain uncharged through lack of evidence, possibly the opinions of her ex husband will be considered malicious, some people will believe she's got away with murder, others will think she's been a victim of terrible circumstance, and others will just be undecided.

I would be very surprised if this case ever makes it to charges never mind going to court. If no-one can say for sure where the group ingested the poison it is possible they were intentionally or accidentally murdered by someone else entirely. JMO MOO

Thinking that LE
1. Waiting on results from labs, cross checking with other labs. Maybe requiring samples analyses overseas. If they collected utensils, jugs, repot, broken crockery etc at dump, there could be a lot of analyses for fungi and human dna. Methodical, one at a time analysis as accidental evidence/DNA mishandling loses cases.
2. Waiting for Ian to be well enough to give statements where it cannot be argued that he is not well enough.
3. LE doing what they do, no need to share with public until they are fully ready to lay charges, or not.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Thinking that LE
1. Waiting on results from labs, cross checking with other labs. Maybe requiring samples analyses overseas. If they collected utensils, jugs, repot, broken crockery etc at dump, there could be a lot of analyses for fungi and human dna. Methodical, one at a time analysis as accidental evidence/DNA mishandling loses cases.
2. Waiting for Ian to be well enough to give statements where it cannot be argued that he is not well enough.
3. LE doing what they do, no need to share with public until they are fully ready to lay charges, or not.

I agree with all of these idea but am wondering - have LE even been in EP's home? As I don't think they have, which IMO is ludicrous, although they may have no legal right to do so.

It would have been idea for the whole house and grounds to be sealed off for the taking of forensic evidence.

Maybe now LE will have to rely strongly on circumstantial evidence and witness testimonies as to things EP has said or done in the past, I suspect most importantly from her children - but are they even allowed to question the children?

I suspect they're relying heavily on input from the (ex) husband and also watching the heck out of EP.

 

[Charlot123]

People Working in Others' Homes?

@303gmf
Without knowing the nature of your work in other ppl's homes, I'm not directing this post to you.

If initially seeing The Wall as "bizarre or amusing," that's one thing for the painter --- his own amusement. Doubting that he would have foreseen any suspicious death until AFTER news on this broke.

I hope if persons working in others' homes see something they believe later suggests a "suspicious death" that they would contact LE, NOT the media.

As someone else posted (sorry, forgot who but TYVM), if painter thought the drawings were made by children and suggested they indicated a mental illness, again, imo, seems the appropriate action would be contacting the VIC child protective services (by whatever name), NOT contacting media.

imo. icbw.

(And here is me, editing people out before I post the photos.)
... Bangkok temples are full of people. That day women from Thai military came to visit the temple, and the best photos I ever made were of these beautiful women in white and gold uniforms, on white steps of the temple. Edited out....

That painter was a professional. Or the realtor selling her house was. And - no, people shouldn't make photos of something that looks bizarre or funny in others' houses. Their job is to improve something, this is why they are professionals, not street bums. And we, the homeowners, have a whole list of professionals to choose from! If someone came to my house merely to take photos, it would be trespassing, with all dire consequences.

If you go to a lawyer, it is private, right? If you go to a doctor, it is private. Your urologist or gyn, they can take pictures before or after surgery, but do you expect them to sell it to People? Plastic surgeons are very careful, they never advertise their clients. In this case, it could be EP or her kids when they are 18 who can take steps because for sure, their ¹lives are going to change. I thought Diana's death has put some limitations on paparazzi and newspapers, but not.

 

[Charlot123]

Confessions? Hands in the Church Finances?

@Charlot123 Thanks for your post w creative thinking.
I mean that in a good way .
Had not occurred to me at all.
Not pointing a finger at anyone, just thinking more broadly.

Church gossips happen all the time. If people choose to spend their lives in church, whatever happens is there. Per Occam's razor, if the two families traveled to EP's house separately, had lunch, and then traveled back to their houses and didn't have any drinks of coffee on the way, it puts us squarely back to EP's house. But we don't know how their morning started. And Korumburra is small, less than 4000 people, and about 18% according to the census is Catholic, and 17% Anglican, so that you are talking about a tiny group around that church, and four people who are almost elders there. If "someone knows something", via a confession, for example, here is another motive.

 

[303gmf]

Just clicked on The Denver Post for local news
September is National Mushroom Month, gave me a chuckle!

 

[jjleroche]

I agree. There is not yet proof beyond a reasonable doubt, at least not from what we've seen reported to date in the media.

However, I think even without the forensic results back there's a lot that the police would have learned by now which can add to the circumstantial evidence.

Just one example: How did EP really feel about her in-laws? Did she love them as much as she claimed in that video? Through interviews with Simon, the kids, her friends I think the police by now should have a pretty good idea of her true feelings.

And that could easily be exculpatory. If through her words and behaviors, EP really was that close to her in-laws I think a jury would have a hard time believing she could intend to do them harm. On the other hand, if she really disliked or resented them...well that's another piece of the puzzle.

I've been thinking about a couple of cases recently: Harold Henthorn pushed his wife off a cliff and said she fell, while Larry Rudolph killed his wife on an African safari and claimed she shot herself by accident.

GUILTY - CO - Dr. Toni Henthorn, 50, dies in cliff fall, Rocky Mountain NP, 29 Sept 2012 *husband arrested*

A Highlands Ranch man indicted in the murder of his second wife, who plunged to her death in Rocky Mountain National Park in 2012, also faces an investigation into the 1995 death of his first wife...

www.websleuths.com

GUILTY - Zambia - Bianca Rudolph, 57, safari trip, fatally shot, 2016 Oct, PA dentist husband and gf arrested 2021

Pennsylvania dentist, 67, is charged with murdering his wife on 2017 African hunting trip | Daily Mail Online 1/11/2022 A Pennsylvania dentist has been charged with murdering his wife during a 2016 African hunting safari as part of an insurance scam and to get out of his marriage to be with...

www.websleuths.com

In both cases the only person present at the time of death was the husband and they had plausible justifications for their spouses deaths. There was very limited direct evidence. But the police were able to build cases by discovering a plethora of circumstantial evidence and eventually were able to convince juries of what really happened.

If Erin really was responsible for poisoning her guests, I hope the authorities can do the same in this case.

DBM Wrong post

 

[MsMarple]

I agree with all of these idea but am wondering - have LE even been in EP's home? As I don't think they have, which IMO is ludicrous, although they may have no legal right to do so.

It would have been idea for the whole house and grounds to be sealed off for the taking of forensic evidence.

Maybe now LE will have to rely strongly on circumstantial evidence and witness testimonies as to things EP has said or done in the past, I suspect most importantly from her children - but are they even allowed to question the children?

I suspect they're relying heavily on input from the (ex) husband and also watching the heck out of EP.

LE executed a search warrant for the house on August 5, the day after finding the dehydrator in the garbage dump.

Police investigate deaths after suspected mushroom poisoning in Australia

Four people were taken to hospital on 30 July after they became ill following a meal they had on the previous day

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Charlot123]

I agree with all of these idea but am wondering - have LE even been in EP's home? As I don't think they have, which IMO is ludicrous, although they may have no legal right to do so.

It would have been idea for the whole house and grounds to be sealed off for the taking of forensic evidence.

Maybe now LE will have to rely strongly on circumstantial evidence and witness testimonies as to things EP has said or done in the past, I suspect most importantly from her children - but are they even allowed to question the children?

I suspect they're relying heavily on input from the (ex) husband and also watching the heck out of EP.

They should have gotten a warrant to enter the house immediately after suspicions about murder were raised. Especially if it is true (per media) that one of the dying victims said something.

My own experience being close to the victims of poisoning (yet away for another reason) - I was hysterical. I would let any police into that place, really doors ajar. Anyone but myself. I didn't know what was the source of poison; it later took the mind of a brilliant professional to reconstruct it all and point at the source. And even when the source was taken away and analyzed, I would still not enter that place and insisted on analyzing all food, just in case. I understand the police being slow; each "weird poison" is a surprise, even to poison control centers. But I just want to tell that EP, IMHO, doesn't behave like a scared victim. And worse, it can't be changed now, as these are the first days when you don't know what the heck happened. The mushrooms were identified very soon, but the most damning to me is that EP behaves with the knowledge that she wasn't the intended victim. I know what she should have said at that interview if she though she were targeted, and she didn't say a word of it.

So if EP stays in the house and doesn't let in the police, it is very suspicious. More than anything else. If you imagine yourself in the epicenter of the situation - you invited four people into your house, fed them, they are now dead and you dodged the bullet - but you know you didn't poison them - what would you think? That you or your kids are the target. That someone might get at you again!

And now imagine the behavior of anyone under the circumstances. Shy, gregarious, paranoid, trusting, it doesn't matter when death is so close. You'd stay in that police station and beg for asylum there. Or move into a hotel. You do not turn the crime scene into your castle.

 

[ch_13]

I agree with all of these idea but am wondering - have LE even been in EP's home? As I don't think they have, which IMO is ludicrous, although they may have no legal right to do so.

It would have been idea for the whole house and grounds to be sealed off for the taking of forensic evidence.

Maybe now LE will have to rely strongly on circumstantial evidence and witness testimonies as to things EP has said or done in the past, I suspect most importantly from her children - but are they even allowed to question the children?

I suspect they're relying heavily on input from the (ex) husband and also watching the heck out of EP.

Actually, I think the police have been inside. From the Daily Mail's timeline of events that's at the bottom of many of their articles:


Saturday, August 5

Don dies in hospital. Police search Erin Patterson's home in Leongatha and seize a number of items.

Sunday, August 6

Police are seen returning to Erin's home to question her. She is heard wailing loudly from inside the house before the four officers leave.

 

[DeDee]

Even if he does hopefully pull through, his statement won't prove much, probably. He can describe the meal but it wouldn't prove anything.

Maybe Ian would say there were mushrooms in the BW and in the gravy.

If she did it:
She made sure the minors didn't dine with the targeted guests at the luncheon.
The minors cannot attest to conversations, actions or anything that happened during the event when they were at the cinema.

4 could have died, if Erin did it. Since Ian came so very close to the edge, it's 3 that died.
Did EP make sure she didn't ingest any of the contaminated mushrooms and feign a brief illness?

SP declined to be present, although invited.
EP's possible intention was for 5 people to die that day, if she knowingly used DC with intent.

JMOO

PSBM

If initially seeing The Wall as "bizarre or amusing," that's one thing for the painter --- his own amusement. Doubting that he would have foreseen any suspicious death until AFTER news on this broke.

I hope if persons working in others' homes see something they believe later suggests a "suspicious death" that they would contact LE, NOT the media.

As someone else posted (sorry, forgot who but TYVM), if painter thought the drawings were made by children and suggested they indicated a mental illness, again, imo, seems the appropriate action would be contacting the VIC child protective services (by whatever name), NOT contacting media.

imo. icbw.

SEPT 4, 2023

Following her split from Simon, their home in Korumburra was put on the market and tradespeople were hired to repaint the walls.

‘The police were inquiring about it. They wanted to see it. They had heard about it,’ the tradesman said.

The tradesman arranged to meet a detective to hand over the image, which he had already supplied to a news organisation.

‘I said “yeah we can catch up and you can have a look at it”. That was about 3pm and I reckon by 4pm it went live,’ the tradie said. ‘It appeared online within an hour after they rang me.’

New twist in poison mushroom case after 'death wall' uncovered


"Ms Patterson told him she had left the house and the children, believed to be in years 7 and 5, created the artwork while she was out."

Mushroom poisoning cook’s home had creepy ‘death wall’

The painter was relating what Erin herself explained to him about how the drawings came to be drawn on the wall.

Perhaps the 5yo could not spell the words written on the wall, such as; "You don’t long to live 1 hour exactly", whereas, could a 7yo, possibly? An ability to spell varies child to child.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I agree with all of these idea but am wondering - have LE even been in EP's home? As I don't think they have, which IMO is ludicrous, although they may have no legal right to do so.

It would have been idea for the whole house and grounds to be sealed off for the taking of forensic evidence.

Maybe now LE will have to rely strongly on circumstantial evidence and witness testimonies as to things EP has said or done in the past, I suspect most importantly from her children - but are they even allowed to question the children?

I suspect they're relying heavily on input from the (ex) husband and also watching the heck out of EP.

Quoting myself to correct myself

Allegedly LE did visit EP in her home, four officers, for several hours, at the end of which EP could be heard loudly 'wailing' (I assume by journalists outside) and they removed 'several items'.

Following that visit she has remained not charged but a person of interest.

I can't provide a link to this but it was clearly stated in the Behaviour Panel analysis of EP's body language in their youtube video on the subject.

 

[DeDee]

I agree with all of these idea but am wondering - have LE even been in EP's home? As I don't think they have, which IMO is ludicrous, although they may have no legal right to do so.

It would have been idea for the whole house and grounds to be sealed off for the taking of forensic evidence.

Maybe now LE will have to rely strongly on circumstantial evidence and witness testimonies as to things EP has said or done in the past, I suspect most importantly from her children - but are they even allowed to question the children?

I suspect they're relying heavily on input from the (ex) husband and also watching the heck out of EP.

VIC AU Police went to EPs home the day after Don died. They recovered several items but we don't know what they are yet.