Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

[elastic]

watch the ABC vids I linked everyone to last week - his pic is on there
BTW ML is the only one that I have heard of that had a boot lined with plastic. DM at the time of the attempted murder he was convicted of, was driving a station wagon - they do not have boots to line with plastic - yes they do have storage capacity but it could not be described as a boot.


the woman who described ML's boot being lined with plastic is on the same vid I refer to above and last week. seek and you will find.

Not sure why you would assume ML is the plastic lined boot man wqhen you of all people are big on dates. If Mony was in jail during the highgate operations, particularly in 2002 then there is no possible way he is 'Plastic lined boot' man.

Its more likely that 'Plastic lined boot' man is actually Donald Victor Morey as highgate is his known hunting ground, we know he tried to kill a prostitute from highgate in 2003, this is one year after the 'plastic lined boot' man was picked up in the operation in highgate and northbridge.

Donald Victor Morey is thought to have killed Darylyn Meridith Ugle but it cannot be proved, she was taken from highgate in March 2003 and found dumped near the Mundairing Weir in April 2003.

The prostitute he attempted to kill was taken during December 2003. She escaped, he used a ligature and attempted to strangle his victim.

Considering Papertrail that you seem to suspect Donald Victor Morey was in Jail during the Karrakatta and CSK attacks without any proof, then its almost a double standard to suggest ML is 'plastic lined boot' man when he himself was almost certainly in jail during the 2002 operation from Con Bayens

Its more than likely that once they knew who Donald Victor Morey was from the highgate operations they then started to watch him closely, he since took 2 known victims after being dicoovered, one he was charged for, the other he was not. He is also suspected of killing Sarah McMahon, an almost splitting image of the CSK victims, she has never been found, she was abducted in November 2000, her car was found afterwards, she has been missing ever since.

 

[Bartholemeus]

You would have to definitely assume that insects would almost certainly attack an area like this in a decomposed body. Maybe they were strangled. Its never been proven if they were or were not and if insect activity is the basis for that assumption then it has so many flaws its unbelievable.

You need to consider a few things here;

1. The person in the photo is still alive. Have a look at how far around the wound goes. To kill someone I'd suggest more force is needed meaning that scarring goes almost all the way around

2. Previously you denied the assumption that insects would start eating a dead body at a wound. Now you seem to be on board.

3. Your reasoning for being quite sure throats weren't cut was because there would be too much blood. Sound reasoning in itself. But a garotte like the one used in the pictures would create a lot of blood.

I have no problems with you shifting your stance but it's a bit rich to shift your stance and then point the finger at others as if they are in the wrong.

 

[crabstick]

So Janes body was found near a horse riding track. Was Pippidinny rd a horse riding area?

John Miller found the Gerard Ross body near his property? Did all three CSK victims go horse riding?

You would presume the watch may have given them a time and date, if the watch stopped.

On 8 June 1996, Jane Louise Rimmer, 23, a child-care worker from Wembley, went to the Continental Hotel with friends. At 12.04am, she headed home, declining to share a taxi with four friends. She disappeared. The next day police set up the taskforce. It has gathered 80,000 pieces of information, much of which is still being assessed. Two months later, on 3 August,

Jane's body was found alongside a dirt track beside a riding school at Wellard, 35 kilometres south of Perth. The body had decomposed, but The Age understands there were no gunshot or knife wounds and she may have been strangled.

Her watch was found, giving police clues about which they refused to talk. But there is evidence Ms Rimmer was killed and dumped within hours of her abduction.

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/123042319/

 

[papertrail]

Not sure why you would assume ML is the plastic lined boot man wqhen you of all people are big on dates. If Mony was in jail during the highgate operations, particularly in 2002 then there is no possible way he is 'Plastic lined boot' man.

Its more likely that 'Plastic lined boot' man is actually Donald Victor Morey as highgate is his known hunting ground, we know he tried to kill a prostitute from highgate in 2003, this is one year after the 'plastic lined boot' man was picked up in the operation in highgate and northbridge.

Donald Victor Morey is thought to have killed Darylyn Meridith Ugle but it cannot be proved, she was taken from highgate in March 2003 and found dumped near the Mundairing Weir in April 2003.

The prostitute he attempted to kill was taken during December 2003. She escaped, he used a ligature and attempted to strangle his victim.

Considering Papertrail that you seem to suspect Donald Victor Morey was in Jail during the Karrakatta and CSK attacks without any proof, then its almost a double standard to suggest ML is 'plastic lined boot' man when he himself was almost certainly in jail during the 2002 operation from Con Bayens

Its more than likely that once they knew who Donald Victor Morey was from the highgate operations they then started to watch him closely, he since took 2 known victims after being dicoovered, one he was charged for, the other he was not. He is also suspected of killing Sarah McMahon, an almost splitting image of the CSK victims, she has never been found, she was abducted in November 2000, her car was found afterwards, she has been missing ever since.

Firstly you can easily make out what ML looked like even when the image has been lightly blurred in the ABC doc.

The reason why I raised ML as being the plastic-lined boot guy is that he - ML - obviously drove a vehicle that had a boot because his ex GF (not Blackburn) states on the vid that he had a plastic lined boot and she also described the articles in the boot. One reason I can see for him to line the boot of a vehicle he was driving was that the vehicle may not have belonged to him. He was a mechanic and borrowed vehicles as can be supported by what Blackburn says in the vid about him following her home in a taxi - he worked on taxis and other vehicles as a mechanic. He has ABN's which show he was a mechanic. DVM has never been described as having a vehicle that had a boot - he was driving a station wagon the night of the attempted murder.

Neither are the Claremont Serial Killer in my view.

He was linked to Bayswater on his ABN which is now cancelled. A google search of his trading names shows some interesting info too - I'll leave that up to you to look up yourselves.

http://abr.business.gov.au/SearchByAbn.aspx?abn=57715273119


Well let's see if you can come up with a definitive ML timeline from this (confusing) court document. Gives ML's history pre Australia as well. http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/wa/WASCA/2001/57.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=mony%20leucus

 

[papertrail]

The ABC video doc and not the transcript of the doc, contains some very interesting info that may just give us the 'hint' as to why the WA police did not discover the JR forensic tape lift fibre links. Have a very close listen, and a very close look at the 22minutes 4 seconds vid time. The detective (does anyone know who he is - I'm referring to guy in dark suit and who the uniformed policeman is?) says "can we get DNA from fibres?"

What particularly blows my mind is this show was aired on 12/11/2007 but I believe the particular vid footage was shot in late 2004 and the WA police detective is asking "CAN WE GET DNA FROM FIBRES"???? I can't believe a detective working on the case in 2004 didn't know more about forensics. Blows my mind.

Also listen very closely to the communication from the uniformed officer and look closely at the map they are examining and the interactions with that map, which shows the CG disposal site. http://www.abc.net.au/austory/specials/beforeyouleap2/default.htm

I've attached a screen shot of the 2 guys referred to above.

 

[papertrail]

Not sure why you would assume ML is the plastic lined boot man wqhen you of all people are big on dates. If Mony was in jail during the highgate operations, particularly in 2002 then there is no possible way he is 'Plastic lined boot' man.

Its more likely that 'Plastic lined boot' man is actually Donald Victor Morey as highgate is his known hunting ground, we know he tried to kill a prostitute from highgate in 2003, this is one year after the 'plastic lined boot' man was picked up in the operation in highgate and northbridge.

Donald Victor Morey is thought to have killed Darylyn Meridith Ugle but it cannot be proved, she was taken from highgate in March 2003 and found dumped near the Mundairing Weir in April 2003.

The prostitute he attempted to kill was taken during December 2003. She escaped, he used a ligature and attempted to strangle his victim.

Considering Papertrail that you seem to suspect Donald Victor Morey was in Jail during the Karrakatta and CSK attacks without any proof, then its almost a double standard to suggest ML is 'plastic lined boot' man when he himself was almost certainly in jail during the 2002 operation from Con Bayens

Its more than likely that once they knew who Donald Victor Morey was from the highgate operations they then started to watch him closely, he since took 2 known victims after being dicoovered, one he was charged for, the other he was not. He is also suspected of killing Sarah McMahon, an almost splitting image of the CSK victims, she has never been found, she was abducted in November 2000, her car was found afterwards, she has been missing ever since.

I supplied the court transcripts which detailed Donald Victor Morey was given a sentence WITH NO PAROLE and from my understanding that meant he was to serve his FULL SENTENCE of 13 years and 4 months. Read the transcript I provided previously; I don't 'suspect' anything. He was convicted of the attempted murder on DNA evidence - his blood in victim's hair - therefore if WA Police do have DNA link from the Karrakatta victim that links that victim to Ciara Glennon, Morey's DNA would have been cross referenced.

Morey was in jail at the time of all rapes, assaults (except for the 2 sexual assault adjacent to the Swanbourne Railway station) and murders.

The plastic-lined boot guy could be one of thousands and it wasn't me.

BTW the Bayens police operation ran from 2000-2002.

 

[papertrail]

Thank you! Wonder why Jane's shirt is navy in that pic? Maybe that's where Debi Marshall got her info?

Also, from the transcript:

Caporn: I think one of the very tangible ways that this crime could be solved is in the tracing of the particularly significant items of jewellery that are missing in relation to this case.

Police re-enactment video 1997: Ciara has a silver watch and silver earrings - two in the left ear, one in the right - and had a distinctive Claddagh brooch pinned to her jacket.

And Ms Blackburn is says that Macro really focused on whether ML had given her any jewelry.

This is new info to me.

Jane's shirt was always described as long sleeved, dark or navy blue.

 

[papertrail]

Blackburn described ML as "big and cuddly". Backburn's ex Mr Muntz described ML as "presented well, strong".. Bayens described lined boot guy as "tall". The detail in a 2013 book (not Devil's Garden) described lined boot guy as "tall and impressive and carried himself with the authority of a policeman", except he was a civilian who had done a taxi driving course".

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id...EIPTAF#v=onepage&q=con bayens plastic&f=false

I am sure I read or heard somewhere, Bayens say lined boot guy had worked one shift as a taxi driver.

Questions for you elastic is how tall is Morey? Could he be described as 'tall and impressive' and would he have personality to be described as the ability to display 'the authority of a policeman'?

 

[papertrail]

Ex Telstra car just sold in Perth.. Wonder if it could tell some
stories?

There was also a holden commodore 1995 white station wagon described as an ex wa police vehicle sold recently. I've got screenshots somewhere and I'll see if I can locate and post. Had a really awful looking mattress in the back with awful looking stains as well!

 

[crabstick]

I thought Morey was in Jail at the time? Unless he jumped the fence the prison then came back. In some prisons, they have a Friday grab a carton at the farm.

Blackburn described ML as "big and cuddly". Backburn's ex Mr Muntz described ML as "presented well, strong".. Bayens described lined boot guy as "tall". The detail in a 2013 book (not Devil's Garden) described lined boot guy as "tall and impressive and carried himself with the authority of a policeman", except he was a civilian who had done a taxi driving course".

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id...EIPTAF#v=onepage&q=con bayens plastic&f=false

I am sure I read or heard somewhere, Bayens say lined boot guy had worked one shift as a taxi driver.

Questions for you elastic how tall is Morey? Could he be described as 'tall and impressive' and would he have personality to be described as the ability to display 'the authority of a policeman'?

Might have been for television purposes? A bit of artistic licence for the camera

The ABC video doc and not the transcript of the doc, contains some very interesting info that may just give us the 'hint' as to why the WA police did not discover the JR forensic tape lift fibre links. Have a very close listen, and a very close look at the 22minutes 4 seconds vid time. The detective (does anyone know who he is - I'm referring to guy in dark suit and who the uniformed policeman is?) says "can we get DNA from fibres?"

What particularly blows my mind is this show was aired on 12/11/2007 but I believe the particular vid footage was shot in late 2004 and the WA police detective is asking "CAN WE GET DNA FROM FIBRES"???? I can't believe a detective working on the case in 2004 didn't know more about forensics. Blows my mind.

Also listen very closely to the communication from the uniformed officer and look closely at the map they are examining and the interactions with that map, which shows the CG disposal site. http://www.abc.net.au/austory/specials/beforeyouleap2/default.htm

I've attached a screen shot of the 2 guys referred to above.

 

[crabstick]

Originally they would have had the Telstra logo on the doors?

The VS fibres meant the car was a year old about the time it started. Sutton would know exact. Government cars are generally kept for about 40000km or 2 years old then auctioned around the time the crimes. A government car would have been purchased at auction, whether that be by a dealer, or private.

Interesting point, considering a Telstra employee could have tapped their phone lines, and others. Being a phone technician would give them an incredible advantage over the victims. Where they were going. Where they were located.

Dodd made a call at a public phone box in town explaining what she was doing. Anyone working on the on the line would have known she was coming their way.

There was also a holden commodore 1995 white station wagon described as an ex wa police vehicle sold recently. I've got screenshots somewhere and I'll see if I can locate and post. Had a really awful looking mattress in the back with awful looking stains as well!

 

[elastic]

You need to consider a few things here;

1. The person in the photo is still alive. Have a look at how far around the wound goes. To kill someone I'd suggest more force is needed meaning that scarring goes almost all the way around

2. Previously you denied the assumption that insects would start eating a dead body at a wound. Now you seem to be on board.

3. Your reasoning for being quite sure throats weren't cut was because there would be too much blood. Sound reasoning in itself. But a garotte like the one used in the pictures would create a lot of blood.

I have no problems with you shifting your stance but it's a bit rich to shift your stance and then point the finger at others as if they are in the wrong.

I always said I beleived a ligature wound could cause insect activity, not that insect activity wouldnt occur..

You post baseless theories without any genuine proof and then shoot others down for the same thing. I wont say your a hypocrite, but its frustrating.

I am happy to use the 'knife' theory in relevant discussions about the possibility of a knife being used, i am open to these ideas, i dont object to this theory. But it has no actual basis at all, its your theory you pass on as fact. However i am happy to discuss the knife, but i actually think at some stage the CSK most definitely strangled the victims, if a knife was involved it was to finish them off at the dumpsite.

Someone decided to post a picture of what a ligature could do, it looks definitely like a wound that could cause insect activity on a decomposed body, do you dispute this? Do you honestly beleive a man twice the size of his female victim could not inflict a wound severe enough with a ligature to cause a wound that would attract insect activity?

Lets look at Lance Williams, he would crush a girl in seconds with that body mass his size whilst enraged or psychotic/in the zone for a kill. Thats just an example though given Lance Williams body mass from photos. And I am sure he would almost rip their head clean off with the right ligature

 

[Parkie]

Originally they would have had the Telstra logo on the doors?

The VS fibres meant the car was a year old about the time it started. Sutton would know exact. Government cars are generally kept for about 40000km or 2 years old then auctioned around the time the crimes. A government car would have been purchased at auction, whether that be by a dealer, or private.

Interesting point, considering a Telstra employee could have tapped their phone lines, and others. Being a phone technician would give them an incredible advantage over the victims. Where they were going. Where they were located.

Dodd made a call at a public phone box in town explaining what she was doing. Anyone working on the on the line would have known she was coming their way.

Sutton is in the USA so how would he know re Telstra vehicles. I think it is ludicrous that Telstra ppl would be tapping into the farm where Hayley was heading. This is so bizarre a thought I am shocked it is brought up.TBH.

 

[Peter Kurten]

Papertrail,

Watch the Segment with the uniformed officer and plain clothed officer again. You misheard their conversation.

For the purposes of accuracy: A VS Series 1 Commodore has a "silver only" Holden badge and a rectangular (not oval shaped) side indicator. The particular trim that the white series ones had was a blueish grey.

 

[elastic]

I supplied the court transcripts which detailed Donald Victor Morey was given a sentence WITH NO PAROLE and from my understanding that meant he was to serve his FULL SENTENCE of 13 years and 4 months. Read the transcript I provided previously; I don't 'suspect' anything. He was convicted of the attempted murder on DNA evidence - his blood in victim's hair - therefore if WA Police do have DNA link from the Karrakatta victim that links that victim to Ciara Glennon, Morey's DNA would have been cross referenced.

Morey was in jail at the time of all rapes, assaults (except for the 2 sexual assault adjacent to the Swanbourne Railway station) and murders.

The plastic-lined boot guy could be one of thousands and it wasn't me.

BTW the Bayens police operation ran from 2000-2002.

Yes you did supply court transcripts, but they did not actually prove anything about Donald Moreys incarceration. It is very rare for prisoners to serve anywhere close to their full sentences. He was in prison for an offence tnat had nothing to do with murder and it wouldnt surprise me if he was on the streets in 95/96 under our justice system.

There is a possibility he was in jail during the CSK years, however there is a possibility that ML was in jail during the Con Bayen highgate and northbridge operation. There is no different, both probably cannot be proven without further verification from someone who can confirm some of the details. Its more likely that Highgate man is Donald Victor Morey than he is ML, Whether Bayens has got it right or not who knows, but he definitely leans/hints towards the highgate 'plastic lined boot' man being Donald Morey.

I beleive with absolutely certainty that Morey could quite easily hold himself high, and talk like a Police man, he sat in a Coronial Inquest and lied through his teeth, he was almost enjoying being on the stand, someone that calculated could quite easily hold themselves with significant authority. Especially seeing he is more than likely our 'other' serial killer, if he isn't the CSK.

Morey is due for release at the end of this year so some poor girl is more than likely going to die to this guy once he is released.

 

[elastic]

Originally they would have had the Telstra logo on the doors?

The VS fibres meant the car was a year old about the time it started. Sutton would know exact. Government cars are generally kept for about 40000km or 2 years old then auctioned around the time the crimes. A government car would have been purchased at auction, whether that be by a dealer, or private.

Interesting point, considering a Telstra employee could have tapped their phone lines, and others. Being a phone technician would give them an incredible advantage over the victims. Where they were going. Where they were located.

Dodd made a call at a public phone box in town explaining what she was doing. Anyone working on the on the line would have known she was coming their way.

If we want to go down the government vehicle route then I would be leaning towards 'Main Roads Vehicle' not 'Telstra Vehicle', main roads vehicles blend in better, are easily left alone, traded at auctions frequently, and fit the profile of the vehicle in every conceivable way by being the same model as the VS Commodore Series 1 White (Maybe Station wagon).

 

[Sprintman]

Papetrail.
I've listened to what was said here and the officer asks whether they can "get dna from foliage"

The ABC video doc and not the transcript of the doc, contains some very interesting info that may just give us the 'hint' as to why the WA police did not discover the JR forensic tape lift fibre links. Have a very close listen, and a very close look at the 22minutes 4 seconds vid time. The detective (does anyone know who he is - I'm referring to guy in dark suit and who the uniformed policeman is?) says "can we get DNA from fibres?"

What particularly blows my mind is this show was aired on 12/11/2007 but I believe the particular vid footage was shot in late 2004 and the WA police detective is asking "CAN WE GET DNA FROM FIBRES"???? I can't believe a detective working on the case in 2004 didn't know more about forensics. Blows my mind.

Also listen very closely to the communication from the uniformed officer and look closely at the map they are examining and the interactions with that map, which shows the CG disposal site. http://www.abc.net.au/austory/specials/beforeyouleap2/default.htm

I've attached a screen shot of the 2 guys referred to above.

 

[elastic]

In a world where unsubstantiated police rumour stated measures to prevent DNA evidence took place. It was early days in DNA. There wasn't even a govt DNA lab. Completely unsubstantiated, but who would be of such a mind to prevent that occurring at the time?
Based on the unsubstantiated police rumour within two weeks of one the crimes, this is not really a David Birnie. Your common criminal wouldn't have contemplated DNA.
Is this why police really took to focus on these particular crimes?
Even police procedures for murder scene were not up to speed on DNA corruption.

Who would have the skills and knowledge in the early period of DNA crime evidence to do this?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reference: Debi, Marshall, 2007. The Devil's Garden: The Claremont Serial Killings. 2nd ed. Australia: Random House.

What rumour? Do you want to pretend the CSK is a DNA mastermind? You do realise they have his DNA, he gave it up during his first known rape (Karrakatta), she managed to survive after being 'left for dead', and that left the CSK DNA profile gift wrapped for WAPOL before he even got started. Then he also left the 'stranger' DNA on the CSK victim, and then when compared confirmed he was a rapist and killer, not exactly someone who is a mastermind at DNA, more than likely an amatuer. He also targetted RANDOM people alone, the easiest targets to target if you dont want to be caught. To catch a serial killer who targets random girls is like starting an investigation similar to a needle in a haystack, it takes months to get some order with the evidence. And then you are still chasing a ghost, this is not meticulous, he was a coward and targetted small girls, not a man who could hold his own against a man.

 

[elastic]

Clothing destroyed for DNA reasons? No sex what so ever?

If intercourse had been had, there would have been sperm and other DNA residue in the genital area?

The bodies were left out in the open exposed to the elements for over a month during a Perth winter in a climate that is one of the absolute harshest in the world. There was very little chance DNA/sperm would be left inside the victim, most of the organs/tissue had probably started to rot and be eaten by numerous insects and animals.

 

[elastic]

Papertrail,

Can you please post your write up of Lance Williams even if you dont have the confirmation you were waiting for from the man recovering from a major surgery. It would create more discussion points on Lance Williams as the discussion is quite stale. I understand you may not be able to confirm any information on the dead friend but I am sure when it becomes available you will share it. It would be good to see what else can be discussed about Lance Williams. Whether he is a suspect or not nowadays he definitely fits the profile of the killer in alot of ways... Then again profiles arent all that accurate at the best of times.

You posted alot of information on other POI's but never on Lance Williams despite being the main suspect in this case. I am sure despite how insignificant the other dot points are they will form some discussion on here about Lance Williams.