GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #5

[Fuskier]

I'm intrigued by this whole notion of the THREE charges of rape against Jill. How do they define that? When does one rape finish and the next one begin? Why are they not classed as just a single prolonged case of rape?

If it occurred over a period of time, where were they? Down the alley the whole time? Was Jill unconscious, or even already dead, after the initial attack?

And how do the police know about "three rapes" - did he confess to that? Did they find three condoms? As far as I know, there would be no way to tell from the autopsy that three separate events occurred within a short space of time, especially if he was as rough as his alleged previous victims have described... <respectfully snipped>

There is a lot in this that we do not know, and some of it intrigues me no end, especially now with this whole "three rapes" charge...
This gets more mysterious as we get closer to the committal next week.

Our human bodies have three orifices. IMO it is not beyond the realm of possibility that some 'sexual deviants' may forcefully impose themselves on all three.Hypothetically, it may have much to do with a hatred of women, sadistic enjoyment of violent penetration - to cause pain, to degrade and humiliate the victim psychologically and physically, before the sadistic gratification of killing the victim. The victim is a mere object for the deviant inner world of the rapist. Hypothetically, if this is so, then such a perpetrator would most likely be classed (among other things) as one 'sadistically deviant' and dangerous dude at high risk of repeat offending.

 

[DrWatson]

Our human bodies have three orifices. IMO it is not beyond the realm of possibility that some 'sexual deviants' may forcefully impose themselves on all three. Hypothetically, it may have much to do with a hatred of women, sadistic enjoyment of violent penetration - to cause pain, to degrade and humiliate the victim psychologically and physically, before the sadistic gratification of killing the victim. The victim is a mere object for the deviant inner world of the rapist.
Hypothetically, if this is so, then such a perpetrator would most likely be classed (among other things) as one 'sadistically deviant' and dangerous dude at high risk of repeat offending.

Indeed, Fuskier - points well made, and I agree completely with the sentiments. My puzzlement, though, is due to whether or not the police and prosecution are alleging that forced access to three separate orifices comprises three separate rapes, or all part of a single episode of assault. I'm aware that there have been numerous cases involving at least two, and in some cases three, penetrations in cases (even allegedly involving the same perpetrator as in this case) which have all come under the single heading of "rape".

So I was just wondering if this was the police "throwing the book" at him to try and get him the maximum possible term in jail, or if there is more to it in terms of three specific and separate charges of rape?

I don't, unfortunately or fortunately, have an encyclopaedic knowledge of previous rape cases, but I don't think I can recall one where multiple separate charges of rape have been brought against the perpetrator in the same presumably single incident. It's that factor that just strikes me as odd.

And I love your phrase of "sadistically deviant and dangerous dude" - most appropriate, I think. Allegedly, of course...

 

[alioop]

Doc, I don't think that Jill had been raped by AB on a previous occasion. She would have run and screamed at the very sight of him and we know she didn't do this from the CCTV footage. I think it is safe to say the rapes all occurred that night after the CCTV footage.

 

[DrWatson]

Doc, I don't think that Jill had been raped by AB on a previous occasion. She would have run and screamed at the very sight of him and we know she didn't do this from the CCTV footage. I think it is safe to say the rapes all occurred that night after the CCTV footage.

Thanks Alioop - yes, I'm sure you're right. But how and why THREE separate charges is what has me puzzled. Unless, as posted above, once in the alley, once in the car, and once at the final burial place?

Except that didn't the police allege that he drove home to pick up a shovel, which presumably meant that she was already dead by then?

Boy - this committal hearing may just shed some light onto some facts - I hope. And it's next week... :rocker:

 

[alioop]

Rape is defined in the Victorian Crimes Act as sexual penetration without consent.
sexual penetration is defined in the Act as-

(a) the introduction (to any extent) by a person of his penis into the
vagina, anus or mouth of another person, whether or not there is
emission of semen; or

(b) the introduction (to any extent) by a person of an object or a part of
his or her body (other than the penis) into the vagina or anus of
another person, other than in the course of a procedure carried out in
good faith for medical or hygienic purposes;

The maximum sentence for rape in victoria is 25 years.

My view of the three rape charges is that it is for the one sexual assault but they have specified it as 3 separate rapes because they can in view of the legal definition. Each "introduction" is a rape.

 

[Fuskier]

Rape is defined in the Victorian Crimes Act as sexual penetration without consent.
sexual penetration is defined in the Act as-

(a) the introduction (to any extent) by a person of his penis into the
vagina, anus or mouth of another person, whether or not there is
emission of semen; or

(b) the introduction (to any extent) by a person of an object or a part of
his or her body (other than the penis) into the vagina or anus of
another person, other than in the course of a procedure carried out in
good faith for medical or hygienic purposes;

The maximum sentence for rape in victoria is 25 years.

My view of the three rape charges is that it is for the one sexual assault but they have specified it as 3 separate rapes because they can in view of the legal definition. Each "introduction" is a rape.

Thanks Alioop and Dr Watson for exploring this a little further. One asks the question: could it be possible that he penetrated violently using something other than his penis? before/after or in addition to penile penetration? Hypothetically, this may give cause for further charges IMO.

 

[possumheart]

Thanks Alioop and Dr Watson for exploring this a little further. One asks the question: could it be possible that he penetrated violently using something other than his penis? before/after or in addition to penile penetration? This may given cause for further charges IMO.

Very sadly, in my city several decades ago an asian student was raped. The perp wasn't satisfied after physically raping the woman, and inserted an umbrella into her vagina and opened it. She had to have a hysterectomy and I have always felt so terrible for her when I go past the park in which this happened. The mind boggles with what these people can and will do. Apologies if anyone finds this upsetting.

 

[Humdinger]

In the news links posted in the comments above it says 3 times 'before' he killed her. In earlier threads I thought it said he was charged with killing her in that lane way, I'll have to look back through the MSM articles, unless anyone can remember?

I think this will get more disturbing next week as we hear more

Edited because my iPad didn't show all of the new posts.

 

[Scoobysnack]

Jill was a smart girl, who had done martial arts ( if I remember correctly) and I feel most certainly she would have made to conscious decision to scratch at AB
or somehow get a sample of his DNA on her person.

 

[DrWatson]

In the news links posted in the comments above it says 3 times 'before' he killed her. In earlier threads I thought it said he was charged with killing her in that lane way, I'll have to look back through the MSM articles, unless anyone can remember?

I think this will get more disturbing next week as we hear more

Edited because my iPad didn't show all of the new posts.

Yes indeed - I wonder just how much we WILL hear? Or even how much we want to hear about poor Jill's nightmare? You may recall that the multitude of hardened press corp who were given a briefing in confidence were so upset that a couple of them were physically sick.

We all know what happened to that poor girl in India who was gang-raped on the bus - perish the thought that something similar happened to Jill.

I know we have to presume innocence, but the accused does have a history of so many rapes and assaults, most being with gross violence and depravity, that the details of this case could be suppressed.

I would think that it takes a fair bit to make journos who cover the crime beat become physically sick, and emotionally shaken to the extent that they were.

It would be merciful if the accused were to plead guilty, with only the judge knowing the details, and then sentencing "never to be released" if they have that provision in Victoria as we do in Queensland. And even that can be overridden, as per the Fardon case...

 

[marlywings]

Thanks Alioop - yes, I'm sure you're right. But how and why THREE separate charges is what has me puzzled. Unless, as posted above, once in the alley, once in the car, and once at the final burial place?

Except that didn't the police allege that he drove home to pick up a shovel, which presumably meant that she was already dead by then?

Boy - this committal hearing may just shed some light onto some facts - I hope. And it's next week... :rocker:

The committal hearing may shed some light on the facts but I guess that will be up to the judge & whether or not he decides some of it will be suppressed. I think there's been quite a few truly horrific cases over time in which the judge has issued suppression orders...Anita Cobby case comes to mind.

 

[Fuskier]

Yes indeed - I wonder just how much we WILL hear? Or even how much we want to hear about poor Jill's nightmare? You may recall that the multitude of hardened press corp who were given a briefing in confidence were so upset that a couple of them were physically sick.
We all know what happened to that poor girl in India who was gang-raped on the bus - perish the thought that something similar happened to Jill.
I know we have to presume innocence, but the accused does have a history of so many rapes and assaults, most being with gross violence and depravity, that the details of this case could be suppressed.
I would think that it takes a fair bit to make journos who cover the crime beat become physically sick, and emotionally shaken to the extent that they were.

It would be merciful if the accused were to plead guilty, with only the judge knowing the details, and then sentencing "never to be released" if they have that provision in Victoria as we do in Queensland...

Agree Dr.Watson. The predator got his prey. Let's hope that Jill was not 'gang raped' like that poor medical student in India or the unfortunate young girl in NSW last week. As you said something made those journalists nauseous. There was some WS discussion about neighbours hearing/seeing a couple of cars arriving at the accused's premises in the early hours of the morning wasn't there and we still don't know what that was about. Guess we'll find out more at the Committal hearing next Tuesday.

 

[DrWatson]

Agree Dr.Watson. The predator got his prey. Let's hope that Jill was not 'gang raped' like that poor medical student in India. There was some WS discussion about neighbours hearing/seeing a couple of cars arriving at the accused's premises in the early hours of the morning wasn't there and we still don't know what that was about. Guess we'll find out more at the Committal hearing next Tuesday.

Just to clarify - I'm not suggesting that Jill may have been gang-raped (I think the car reported at his home may have been him calling home for the shovel).

I was thinking more along the lines of the damage that was done to that poor girl in India with the iron bar... Just extending that line of thought of a few posts back about intrusions etc. Sorry for the mental imagery, but that poor girl in India must have gone through hell before she died several days later. I really REALLY hope that nothing similar occurred to Jill, and that her death was mercifully early and quick.

Apologies for expressing the thoughts - but something made those journalists very queasy.... :furious:

 

[keyleigh]

Is the time of death confirmed? Did he definitely kill her that night? The whole thing is just horrific, but could he have had her alive somewhere for a day or so?

I know the original charges said murdered that night and we assume in the alley, but maybe not?

I had so hoped poor Jill didn't suffer for long. I was wrong. :anguish:

 

[Alli1982]

Thanks Alioop - yes, I'm sure you're right. But how and why THREE separate charges is what has me puzzled. Unless, as posted above, once in the alley, once in the car, and once at the final burial place?

Except that didn't the police allege that he drove home to pick up a shovel, which presumably meant that she was already dead by then?

Boy - this committal hearing may just shed some light onto some facts - I hope. And it's next week... :rocker:

As someone already referred to, it will be different types, not different occasions - i have heard many trials in my line of work and in the media where there have been multiple rape charges during one rape incident.

 

[KG1]

Irish news link.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Co...murder-raped-victim-repeatedly-195531681.html

 

[KG1]

Thanks Alioop - yes, I'm sure you're right. But how and why THREE separate charges is what has me puzzled. Unless, as posted above, once in the alley, once in the car, and once at the final burial place?

Except that didn't the police allege that he drove home to pick up a shovel, which presumably meant that she was already dead by then?

Boy - this committal hearing may just shed some light onto some facts - I hope. And it's next week... :rocker:

Dr Watson, From my recollection of earlier reports, AB left JM in the alley when he returned home to obtain a shovel. Whether JM was already dead, or unconscious at that time, we don't know. He may have raped her at least once again, when he returned to retrieve her body. The way the prosecution handle these charges in Victoria, is to treat each offence separately, rather than as a prolonged period of successive rapes. The DNA came from different areas, her clothes also, which were torn.

 

[KG1]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ditional-charges/story-e6frg6nf-1226591079731

 

[KG1]

http://www.theage.com.au/national/meagher-suspect-on-more-rape-counts-20130305-2fj3r.html

 

[KG1]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...-charges-emerge/story-fnat79vb-1226590611543#