Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

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I think a "bill" counts for ID points too right? Could the eye appointment been done purely to get them to send an invoice or receipt to his address for ID points?
No invoice or bill in this case though. It was a Medicare claimable service with no out of pocket expenses. claimed directly by the practitioner to Medicare. An eye exam is the only optometry service claimable through Medicare. Dental not covered by Medicare at all.
 
I don't believe he would have resold her passport. If MB met her end in the UK and someone travelled to Australia using her passport, it was someone he knew IMO...
" IF he DID resell her passport to someone wanting to come into Aust ......" there are only 2 options in my scenario, agreeing with Gymtonic that he could have resold her PP or as I mentioned prior someone he knew came in on the passport.
 
I've read arguments for and against the planting of 'proof of life' in UK and Aust. which are all possible but IMO the simplest explanation is neither!
The cards: to me, it seems Marion had a habit of leaving correspondence at the hotel desk to save looking for a post box. The first one 5 days after her departure was probably posted with the weekly mail. The second, I believe was misplaced and posted weeks later. Simple.
The Medicare card: IMO was used by Marion on 13th August, just 2 days after RB purchased the car & took her to the Grafton area. IMO he was not even aware it was used. IMO this is fairly convincing proof Marion was still alive 2 weeks after her return.

The hire car in UK: I believe RB hired it, just as he did with JO, although Marion probably drove as she wrote in her letter.
IMO, RB was with Marion for some of the time in UK. Marion's comment that she was off to Amsterdam almost seals it for me; she was planning to meet RB there. I believe they both flew to Narita together on their return to Australia.
 
I've read arguments for and against the planting of 'proof of life' in UK and Aust. which are all possible but IMO the simplest explanation is neither!
The cards: to me, it seems Marion had a habit of leaving correspondence at the hotel desk to save looking for a post box. The first one 5 days after her departure was probably posted with the weekly mail. The second, I believe was misplaced and posted weeks later. Simple.
The Medicare card: IMO was used by Marion on 13th August, just 2 days after RB purchased the car & took her to the Grafton area. IMO he was not even aware it was used. IMO this is fairly convincing proof Marion was still alive 2 weeks after her return.

The hire car in UK: I believe RB hired it, just as he did with JO, although Marion probably drove as she wrote in her letter.
IMO, RB was with Marion for some of the time in UK. Marion's comment that she was off to Amsterdam almost seals it for me; she was planning to meet RB there. I believe they both flew to Narita together on their return to Australia.
I like it. I wish neither options were true and Marion would just turn up at Sally's and say what's all this fuss about :(
 
If he was the one doing the withdrawals from MB's bank account, how do you think that he managed it, when the account was in the name of Marion Barter?
I think in order to explain the bank withdrawals, there has to be some clear indication of the mechanics and this has been widely discussed previously. Evidence at the inquest indicates, prima facie, that procedures were followed but after the fact and with few records to absolutely verify this was the case. It has been a case of "if the money was withdrawn, it must have happened this way because we would always follow procedure". So for example the testimony indicates for the daily withdrawals (my notes):
  • Max could be taken at ATM by keycard was $800 so $5000 a day had to be done over counter
  • Fill out form and show ID card
  • No computers so would be a diary note and placed on a/c/ file
  • Teller required signature card and supervisor to approve and cross check
  • Consecutive daily withdrawals not necessarily noticeable if went to different branches and no red flag if person said they were purchasing a house for example.
IMO, either procedures weren't followed and, knowing Byron Bay at that time, things could be quite casual, or there was someone dodgy at the bank. I think it is possible for someone to pick different tellers and fill out a form and present a signature card without a teller taking too much notice and checking to see if it was either genuine and not forged or name matched. In a time before computers I am sure I heard of many cases of stolen identities being used to clean people out....so how is it/was it done?

Re the $80,000 from Ashmore, there has been debate about whether it was a withdrawal or transfer. Not wishing to reignite the debate but because you asked...I am of the view it was a transfer to another account and I am pretty sure this has been said several times in podcast and inquest (but other disagree I know). BB Police said it was electronically transferred in a contemporaneous (1998) report. The bank staff at Ashmore would know MB; the manager at inquest said he did and would have known if she had withdrawn it. A transfer would be easier to fraudulently do. The information about the banking scenario is still debateable because of the tyranny of time and subsequent bank mergers, and this makes it difficult to determine with what's available to us. If there is another investigation, maybe a forensic accountant might be able to determine more?

Ultimately though just because on paper it would seem to be MB withdrawing the money, it doesn't mean to say that it was. Fraud is rife. this happens all the time and let's face it AKA has based his criminal history on the fact that it is possible to forge, defraud and impersonate...and THAT is a proven fact!
 
...but what about the phone call in conjunction with the postcards? for me this puts 3 out of the picture.
A good point. But I don't see the connection.

On 31 July or 1 Aug (court isn't sure of exact date) Marion called to say she wouldn't be writing so much in order to enjoy her holiday.
Her passport entered Aus on 2 Aug.
Cards arrived in Aus postmarked 7 and 30 Aug from UK.

She could've:
  • remained in the UK, disregarded her own advice, and wrote new postcards closer to 7 and 30 Aug
  • remained in the UK, had already written cards she posted later or postcards were delayed
  • returned to Aus and postcards were delayed.
It's very possible RB told Marion to call her family and tell them not to worry if they didn't hear from her. Because he already knew he was taking her back to Aus to steal her money and make her disappear.

He might've paid someone at the hotel to post the cards at a later date. I wouldn't necessarily consider this 'planting the postcards', but it would buy him time before her family called authorities. IMO. I still think it's plausible he made her return to Aus.

Another question is, if he intended to return to Aus without Marion (but pretend she did return), why keep her alive in the UK with the danger of her posting cards and calling family? Doesn't this also defeat the purpose of 'making it look like she returned so it doesn't look like fraud'?

S0 yes, I'm still 100% convinced that I am still confused, and can't make sense of it, hehehee.
 
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I've read arguments for and against the planting of 'proof of life' in UK and Aust. which are all possible but IMO the simplest explanation is neither!
The cards: to me, it seems Marion had a habit of leaving correspondence at the hotel desk to save looking for a post box. The first one 5 days after her departure was probably posted with the weekly mail. The second, I believe was misplaced and posted weeks later. Simple.
The Medicare card: IMO was used by Marion on 13th August, just 2 days after RB purchased the car & took her to the Grafton area. IMO he was not even aware it was used. IMO this is fairly convincing proof Marion was still alive 2 weeks after her return.

The hire car in UK: I believe RB hired it, just as he did with JO, although Marion probably drove as she wrote in her letter.
IMO, RB was with Marion for some of the time in UK. Marion's comment that she was off to Amsterdam almost seals it for me; she was planning to meet RB there. I believe they both flew to Narita together on their return to Australia.
Occam's razor for me...actually the simplest explanation is that the postcards were posted when the postmarks say they were, and the phone call happened when SL says it was and from where it is reported MB said she was. Anything else is supposition and belief to fit a narrative. I'm curious...What makes you say MB had a habit of leaving correspondence at the hotel desk to save looking for a post box? who said this? was it at inquest?in one of the letters? because I missed it.

Also, as I said yesterday in relation to them both flying to Narita on their return to Oz...the arrival cards say otherwise. FNMR passport came back on a Cathay Pacific flight via Hong Kong on a different day. Are you saying that this did not happen and that both travelled back on the same day via JAL through Narita?
 
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I think in order to explain the bank withdrawals, there has to be some clear indication of the mechanics and this has been widely discussed previously. Evidence at the inquest indicates, prima facie, that procedures were followed but after the fact and with few records to absolutely verify this was the case. It has been a case of "if the money was withdrawn, it must have happened this way because we would always follow procedure". So for example the testimony indicates for the daily withdrawals (my notes):
  • Max could be taken at ATM by keycard was $800 so $5000 a day had to be done over counter
  • Fill out form and show ID card
  • No computers so would be a diary note and placed on a/c/ file
  • Teller required signature card and supervisor to approve and cross check
  • Consecutive daily withdrawals not necessarily noticeable if went to different branches and no red flag if person said they were purchasing a house for example.
IMO, either procedures weren't followed and, knowing Byron Bay at that time, things could be quite casual, or there was someone dodgy at the bank. I think it is possible for someone to pick different tellers and fill out a form and present a signature card without a teller taking too much notice and checking to see if it was either genuine and not forged or name matched. In a time before computers I am sure I heard of many cases of stolen identities being used to clean people out....so how is it/was it done?

Re the $80,000 from Ashmore, there has been debate about whether it was a withdrawal or transfer. Not wishing to reignite the debate but because you asked...I am of the view it was a transfer to another account and I am pretty sure this has been said several times in podcast and inquest (but other disagree I know). BB Police said it was electronically transferred in a contemporaneous (1998) report. The bank staff at Ashmore would know MB; the manager at inquest said he did and would have known if she had withdrawn it. A transfer would be easier to fraudulently do. The information about the banking scenario is still debateable because of the tyranny of time and subsequent bank mergers, and this makes it difficult to determine with what's available to us. If there is another investigation, maybe a forensic accountant might be able to determine more?

Ultimately though just because on paper it would seem to be MB withdrawing the money, it doesn't mean to say that it was. Fraud is rife. this happens all the time and let's face it AKA has based his criminal history on the fact that it is possible to forge, defraud and impersonate...and THAT is a proven fact!
Thank you for your comprehensive answer to my question. I hadn't heard or read that the $80,000 may of been an actual bank transfer. As you say, if it was, then that would have most likely been easier for a fraudster, rather than doing a withdrawal. So many questions and possibilities in this case...
 
A good point. But I don't see the connection.

On 31 July or 1 Aug (court isn't sure of exact date) Marion called to say she wouldn't be writing so much in order to enjoy her holiday.
Her passport entered Aus on 2 Aug.
Cards arrived in Aus postmarked 7 and 30 Aug from UK.

She could've:
  • remained in the UK, disregarded her own advice, and wrote new postcards closer to 7 and 30 Aug
  • remained in the UK, had already written cards she posted later or postcards were delayed
  • returned to Aus and postcards were delayed.
It's very possible RB told Marion to call her family and tell them not to worry if they didn't hear from her. Because he already knew he was taking her back to Aus to steal her money and make her disappear.

He might've paid someone at the hotel to post the cards at a later date. I wouldn't necessarily consider this 'planting the postcards', but it would buy him time before her family called authorities. IMO. I still think it's plausible he made her return to Aus.

Another question is, if he intended to return to Aus without Marion (but pretend she did return), why keep her alive in the UK with the danger of her posting cards and calling family? Doesn't this also defeat the purpose of 'making it look like she returned so it doesn't look like fraud'?

S0 yes, I'm still 100% convinced that I am still confused, and can't make sense of it, hehehee.
What I meant was...So do you think the phone call was made on a different day or from a different place? Because according to a UK sleuth who investigated the departure, transit and arrival times of the scheduled route that the FNMR passport arrived on, it was not possible to have made the call on that day from TW. I know others interpret this as, so it must have been made on an other day or from transit, but this means SL is wrong about the date (but Threadbo fixes it) or MB lied about where she was calling from, and somehow she was able to obtain foreign coins for an airport payphone and cover the background noise of phoning from an airport.

[PS IMO I don't think postcards delayed is a factor because it is the postmark dates that are crucial not the length of time the cards took to arrive]
 
Unfortunately Marion is, at times, an unreliable witness. During the lead up to her disappearance, she did lie and kept vital information from Sally. Not simply because 'she thought it was the truth', but because something else was going on and she was likely being coerced.

For example, she did not reveal or tell the truth about:
- her name change
- the real reason she went overseas
- her overall plans for the next year
- her relationship with the man in the car
- where she slept that night
- her passenger cards
- her particular itinerary
- where she was and who she was with.

If she was with RB in the UK, then we can be almost certain she was being coerced over there too, and so we can't take everything she said in the UK as true and accurate. IMO.
 
Occam's razor for me...actually the simplest explanation is that the postcards were posted when the postmarks say they were, and the phone call happened when SL says it was and from where it is reported MB said she was. Anything else is supposition and belief to fit a narrative. I'm curious...What makes you say MB had a habit of leaving correspondence at the hotel desk to save looking for a post box? who said this? was it at inquest?in one of the letters? because I missed it.

Also I think I said yesterday in relation to them both flying to Narita on their return to Oz...the arrival cards say otherwise. FNMR passport came back on a Cathay Pacific flight via Hong Kong on a different day. Are you saying that this did not happen and that both travelled back on the same day via JAL through Narita?

I agree the postcards were posted when the postmarks say they were but by what means? Did Marion place them in the mail box or was it hotel staff?
Two delayed cards led me to theorize that it seemed Marion had a habit of leaving cards at the hotel desk for postage. I think you will find that I prefaced that statement with "to me", it was not a statement of fact.

Regarding their return to Australia:
I don't believe I said that they flew to Australia together. I said they flew to Narita together, on their way back to Australia.
 
Thank you again @Peralta for clearing that up. I hope it will be streamed!

I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't return now. I also think it is possible AKA told Marion not to contact her family blah blah and she told him she wouldn't. He probably had no idea she was sending postcards so didn't think he would have to match dates with the flight times of whomever used her passport.

On her arrival card back in to Aus, I think the handwriting analysis said it was likely her handwriting. Was the date the same hand writing? That is the only thing I would consider if it wasn't her travelling on the FNMR passport back to Australia. That being said he seems to be a good manipulator so he COULD have said they are flying back for a few days fill this out, then " oh no I got bashed we are staying " but he already has her pre filled out form.


Marion could of asked reception of hotel to post her postcards. That was common back in the 90s. Is it possible Hong Kong airport had silent phone booths in the airport back in the day? I think another member had previously confirmed that the airport was not a silent airport back then and boarding announcements were made. Perhaps they had a phone room? They have smokers rooms, prayer rooms etc, maybe? Just trying to think of possibilities.
Maybe she didn't return, as AKA seemed adamant (i cannot remember exact words) that he had not done anything in "Australia". Maybe the card was filled out beforehand. Good question ... was the date the same handwriting, pen?
 
Does anyone tell the truth in this 60 year saga o_O:(:(:(
It seems no one is who they say they are, no one does what they say they are doing and no one tells the truth to anyone!
Sometimes I feel like we are all in the twilight zone !
 
What I meant was...So do you think the phone call was made on a different day or from a different place? Because according to a UK sleuth who investigated the departure, transit and arrival times of the scheduled route that the FNMR passport arrived on, it was not possible to have made the call on that day from TW. I know others interpret this as, so it must have been made on an other day or from transit, but this means SL is wrong about the date (but Threadbo fixes it) or MB lied about where she was calling from, and somehow she was able to obtain foreign coins for an airport payphone and cover the background noise of phoning from an airport.

[PS IMO I don't think postcards delayed is a factor because it is the postmark dates that are crucial not the length of time the cards took to arrive]

Why would she necessarily be calling from the airport? Why couldn't she call from the Hotel Nikko at Narita? The hotel would also, I imagine, supply appropriate coins for the payphones.
 
What I meant was...So do you think the phone call was made on a different day or from a different place? Because according to a UK sleuth who investigated the departure, transit and arrival times of the scheduled route that the FNMR passport arrived on, it was not possible to have made the call on that day from TW. I know others interpret this as, so it must have been made on an other day or from transit, but this means SL is wrong about the date (but Threadbo fixes it) or MB lied about where she was calling from, and somehow she was able to obtain foreign coins for an airport payphone and cover the background noise of phoning from an airport.
[PS IMO I don't think postcards delayed is a factor because it is the postmark dates that are crucial not the length of time the cards took to arrive]
Yeah, I agree the call doesn't add up and we can't take it at face value.

According to inquest, Marion called SL on 31 July or 1 Aug (Aus time).
Her passport entered Aus on 2 Aug (Aus time).

I interpret this as meaning she either stayed in UK and someone else used her passport.
Or she couldn't tell the truth and was already in transit to Aus.

I honestly can't say which one!
 
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