Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Lokii]

He insisted he only went to Madame Flamme's house just the once. Which probably means he went multiple times. I suspect he found the death or funeral notice of her husband and stalked her with the intention of doing what he always does. But to his delight, found she had a coin collection.

I don't know if he already had an interest in coins, or if this was what started it. I don't know what year all this happened. The restricted file has a date from 2010 but that is the date it was uploaded to the site. Madame Flamme passed away 11 Jan 2019. We need to find out when her husband Emile Flamme died.

I researched this family quite extensively yesterday as I just knew there was more to the Flamme story. I think this story runs deep, I feel that he knew of Emile Flamme from the early days, he didn’t stumble across Andrée by chance.

 

[ruby925]

Just catching up with today's court proceedings. The Winchester Cathedral questioning is interesting.

All of the other places mentioned by RB or the lawyer are close together - Burwash, Hastings, Rye, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells, Dover, Deal. All in that far south east corner of England. Winchester is further - about 100 miles. Who knows. the whole thing is so odd.

I thought he meant Winchelsea, which is in the south east corner, but has no cathedral

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Just catching up with today's court proceedings. The Winchester Cathedral questioning is interesting.

All of the other places mentioned by RB or the lawyer are close together - Burwash, Hastings, Rye, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells, Dover, Deal. All in that far south east corner of England. Winchester is further - about 100 miles. Who knows. the whole thing is so odd.

That has intrigued me. He is going much further to the west of Kent & Sussex. Never been mentioned in postcards. At first I wondered if AC was confusing it with Winchelsea but that and Jane Austin’s house I believe is relevant. Has someone in the UK who knows of the case come forward with records for that time?

 

[Estelle]

Interesting Estelle. But what makes you think they couldn't 'deceased' her in UK, only in Aus?

I based my reasoning on the facts that

1. RB returned to Australia ARRIVING HERE VIA JAPAN? on 31st July, 1997 - two days before Marion ARRIVED. IS THIS AN ESTABLISHED FACT?

2. Marion phoned Sally on 1st August, 1997 so she was still alive then. RB was in Australia so he could not have caused her death then.

3. But where was Marion when she made that phone call? Sussex in England? OR During her stopover in Hong Kong on her way back.

My musings tonight:

If DH had flown to the UK (using another passport not in her name) in the school holidays and possibly been introduced as Mazz to Marion, IMO her role would have been to return to Australia using Marion's Florabella passport dressed in "old-fashioned clothes" with dark hair with a fringe. Photos could have been swapped in those days too. RB could have persuaded Marion (as he did with JO) to leave all her documents including her passport in a shared locker at Heathrow airport to which RB had the key. DH would not have had time to do away with Marion as she had to catch a flight. So IMO DH and RB had everything they needed to commit the frauds in Australia. But the problem is that Marion would have still been alive and able to report them when she later learned that her banks were drained. So if Marion was unaware that RB and DH had flown back to Australia, and made no more phone calls to Sally in the next week or so, I think that the Dutch dentist could have been a hitman paid by RB to end MB's life.

In this scenario, I think RB would have bought DH a return ticket which Marion did not know about and perhaps DH only stayed there a few days. I don't think Diane used Marion's ticket but then how did RB get Marion to fill in the Arrivals Card in advance unless she was coerced? Perhaps he is good at forging handwriting? What was filled in on that card has never made sense to me. Apart from the flight No being filled in by somebody else, I also noticed that the tick besides Married was also different.

I just can't imagine a Teacher like Marion agreeing to saying that she is only going to stay 3 (or was it 8?) days in Australia as it's a long return flight to take in a week. IMO I also think she would have taken her other passport and most of her ID may have still been in the name of Marion as she may not have had time to change it all if you are in a hurry to do everything Marion had to do at the last minute. Also the idea that you can only withdraw small amounts of $5,000 due to losing interest in a high interest account does not make sense if she was in a hurry to get her money. Surely the bank could have transferred all of it to her other account in the UK. Nobody takes cash out unless you are RB!

Putting that she was a Housewife living in Luxembourg is also strange as she does not seem to have gone there especially if his story is that he was going to help her to buy a school in the UK. Were they married at the hotel in Narita airport? It is a possibility as I read you can do that in one day. But was the marriage ever registered? I doubt it. I also can't imagine RB being with Marion for the whole time she was in the UK. His goal would have been to get her documents put in that other suitcase he told her to bring (with her winter clothes) into the locker at Heathrow airport and job was done once he had the key. He would have then abandoned her as soon as he felt he could saying he had business dealings to attend to in Luxembourg and would catch up with her when he could and go on the Orient Express with her later for their honeymoon. He then sends his friends, Mazz (DH) and the Dutch Dentist over there to meet Marion at her hotel.

These are just thoughts I have had tonight so please pick holes in them!

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I am wondering what the atmosphere is like in the RB household tonight?

He’s probably wondering where his next meal ticket is coming from. He has no feelings at all, just his own self pity.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Marion said they met at the arts center (or through a friend there?)— That might be closest to the truth.

He targeted JO b/c he knew her husband and knew they were just separated. He’s also mentioned books/book fairs on several occasions. It’s possible he knew FR from his bookstore and when he learned FR & MC separated he targeted a newly vulnerable MC (my theory). A similar (through a friend) connection could be how he targeted Marion. OR maybe he learned of her from a newspaper story of her teaching award and called her with an invented a story of having a mutual friend at the arts center. He could have easily called and said “ I knew your husband years ago. We met at a soccer clinic in Switzerland. Blah blah….

Anyhow, just saying I’d put the most “likely to be true” weight on something Marion said—Even if she didn’t give all the details.

I also think Marion was aware her decisions were impulsive and likely to be ridiculed by her family—this is my theory of why she kept it all secret.

Did the Arts Centre have coin fairs from time to time? I know the Council run Assembly Hall in Tunbridge Wells did at that time.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Having finally caught up with the end of the inquest today just how unsatisfactory was that to end on the cliffhanger of Marion’s case. The one the inquest is supposed to be delving into. AC has been magnificent but to have your man on the ropes only to back off is deeply frustrating.

The delay is probably not helpful but I’m praying I’m completely wrong for Sally’s sake. She has been put through the wringer more than enough.

 

[Estelle]

Has anyone worked out where the cafe was in Sydney?

The one where he worked for her parents in the 70s or the one where he used to meet the Le Courier guy? The last one was on the corner of Pitt and Market Streets, Sydney, I think he said. But I doubt that a coffee shop has ever been there.

 

[Passingthru]

If he regularly killed his victims there would likely be a long list of missing/dead women. I really don’t think killing was part of his normal fraud behavior. I also think he’s pretty comfortable lying his way out of things—opposed to taking more extreme measures to cover his tracks. He could be responsible for Marion’s death — I don’t know— but I don’t think there is anything to suggest he was a serial killer.

Also, did anyone catch him saying he learned in the brief of evidence that Marion stayed a week in a hotel in Brisbane (i think he said Brisbane). So police know something about Marion’s actions after she returned. Probably stayed a week at hotel. Then realized it would take longer to get her money out. Bought a car (about a week after her return), rented a place in Byron bay together and continued to take out money. RB must get busy with some other con between mid Sept and mid Oct. (or waiting on sally to deposit money from sale of car). Then mid October takes final 80k and puts it in his safety envelope. Honestly, I’d guess he just left Marion high and dry in Byron Bay ( police did suggest starting their search in Byron Bay— I doubt this statement was coincidental).

At this point, Marion was already hiding the fact she was even in AU and in a relationship. Now she has to face the option of telling her family she’d been lying to them and conned out of everything. I think she couldn’t face the humiliation.

The only issue is how many of the missing women were listed as “missing of their own accord.”? I doubt that Marion was the only missing person case to be ignored by the police. The only reason we know about it now is because Sally went above and beyond. Hell even the majority of Marion’s family were willing to believe she just up and left.

 

[Estelle]

The only issue is how many of the missing women were listed as “missing of their own accord.”? I doubt that Marion was the only missing person case to be ignored by the police. The only reason we know about it now is because Sally went above and beyond. Hell even the majority of Marion’s family were willing to believe she just up and left.

IMO RB really set Marion up, didn't he?

 

[gingertn]

IMO if DdH doesn't leave him by April, she is not innocent. Otherwise, I would predict that they have been in this scam and maybe others as a team.

In the US, we have he spousal testimonial privilege precludes one spouse from testifying against the other spouse in criminal or related proceedings. Either spouse can invoke the privilege to prevent the testimony. This privilege does not survive the dissolution of the marital relationship.

I know this isn't a trial but an inquest, but does AUS have something similar? If so, I think they would stay married.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

He seemed to care what Monique thought of him.

 

[AStartoSteerBy]

I based my reasoning on the facts that

1. RB returned to Australia ARRIVING HERE VIA JAPAN? on 31st July, 1997 - two days before Marion ARRIVED. IS THIS AN ESTABLISHED FACT?

2. Marion phoned Sally on 1st August, 1997 so she was still alive then. RB was in Australia so he could not have caused her death then.

3. But where was Marion when she made that phone call? Sussex in England? OR During her stopover in Hong Kong on her way back.

My musings tonight:

If DH had flown to the UK (using another passport not in her name) in the school holidays and possibly been introduced as Mazz to Marion, IMO her role would have been to return to Australia using Marion's Florabella passport dressed in "old-fashioned clothes" with dark hair with a fringe. Photos could have been swapped in those days too. RB could have persuaded Marion (as he did with JO) to leave all her documents including her passport in a shared locker at Heathrow airport to which RB had the key. DH would not have had time to do away with Marion as she had to catch a flight. So IMO DH and RB had everything they needed to commit the frauds in Australia. But the problem is that Marion would have still been alive and able to report them when she later learned that her banks were drained. So if Marion was unaware that RB and DH had flown back to Australia, and made no more phone calls to Sally in the next week or so, I think that the Dutch dentist could have been a hitman paid by RB to end MB's life.

In this scenario, I think RB would have bought DH a return ticket which Marion did not know about and perhaps DH only stayed there a few days. I don't think Diane used Marion's ticket but then how did RB get Marion to fill in the Arrivals Card in advance unless she was coerced? Perhaps he is good at forging handwriting? What was filled in on that card has never made sense to me. Apart from the flight No being filled in by somebody else, I also noticed that the tick besides Married was also different.

I just can't imagine a Teacher like Marion agreeing to saying that she is only going to stay 3 (or was it 8?) days in Australia as it's a long return flight to take in a week. IMO I also think she would have taken her other passport and most of her ID may have still been in the name of Marion as she may not have had time to change it all if you are in a hurry to do everything Marion had to do at the last minute. Also the idea that you can only withdraw small amounts of $5,000 due to losing interest in a high interest account does not make sense if she was in a hurry to get her money. Surely the bank could have transferred all of it to her other account in the UK. Nobody takes cash out unless you are RB!

Putting that she was a Housewife living in Luxembourg is also strange as she does not seem to have gone there especially if his story is that he was going to help her to buy a school in the UK. Were they married at the hotel in Narita airport? It is a possibility as I read you can do that in one day. But was the marriage ever registered? I doubt it. I also can't imagine RB being with Marion for the whole time she was in the UK. His goal would have been to get her documents put in that other suitcase he told her to bring (with her winter clothes) into the locker at Heathrow airport and job was done once he had the key. He would have then abandoned her as soon as he felt he could saying he had business dealings to attend to in Luxembourg and would catch up with her when he could and go on the Orient Express with her later for their honeymoon. He then sends his friends, Mazz (DH) and the Dutch Dentist over there to meet Marion at her hotel.

These are just thoughts I have had tonight so please pick holes in them!

_________

That last phone call to Sally...
Sally characterized Marion's attitude as unhappy. Did Marion know at that point she'd been conned? Did she obvuscate her location & situation intentionally out of shame? Or, was it that fake FR &/or an accomplice still had her travel documents and control of her money?

Asking Sally to talk to her until the time ran out on the pay phone doesn't jive with a woman still believing the romance scam. "In too deep to get out" more characterizes the tone of that conversation. Manipulation and control highlight all of the other cons on women. My thoughts are that fake FR had a way to exert control and monitor communications Marion tried to make with her family, even at that point.

It's possible that Marion made it to Byron Bay, and then tried something desperate to re-gain control of her life and finances.

 

[Bibno]

Just catching up with today's court proceedings. The Winchester Cathedral questioning is interesting.

All of the other places mentioned by RB or the lawyer are close together - Burwash, Hastings, Rye, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells, Dover, Deal. All in that far south east corner of England. Winchester is further - about 100 miles. Who knows. the whole thing is so odd.

I’ve been wondering why Winchester Cathedral has been mentioned so often in this part of the Inquest, I haven’t heard it mentioned before. D de H says d she may have been to Canterbury Cathedral but not Winchester.

Winchester is definitely outside RB’s usual Manor.

Deal was also new this week from RB.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I’ve been wondering why Winchester Cathedral has been mentioned so often in this part of the Inquest, I haven’t heard it mentioned before. D de H says d she may have been to Canterbury Cathedral but not Winchester.

Winchester is definitely outside RB’s usual Manor.

Deal was also new this week from RB.

If you belly danced in Deal in December you would be sectioned!

 

[Isabelle-Australia]

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...ws-story/0fab1e0ac51bf7d643555b73d3c9f431?amp

Some rather large photos of RB and some interesting descriptions of him.

Not behind a paywall.

Makes me sick that they focused on her “sexual appetite” in that headline. We don’t know if that’s even true. Tarnishing the name of MB. This guy is a Piece of work.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Someone noticed the mark on his wrist where a watch must have been.

Maybe it was one he "borrowed" from someone to put in a tube or something.

 

[Bibno]

I thought he meant Winchelsea, which is in the south east corner, but has no cathedral

I’m sure it’s Winchester Cathedral that was mentioned, and it was mentioned in a list of places including Winchelsea. D de H responded that she hadn’t been to Winchester Cathedral, but had probably been to Canterbury, which is near the other places mentioned.

 

[Ponderer101]

He seemed to care what Monique thought of him.

in my readings narcissists only value/respect people who are just like them

 

[Ponderer101]

If you belly danced in Deal in December you would be sectioned!

Colchester (sp!) has been mentioned too several times