Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #4 *ARREST*

[TootsieFootsie]

Someone who was incensed by the revelation of Carol's relationship with a married man ?

Is anyone else curious whether this has anything to do with the local chapter of the Women's Institute? Her role within the organization, linked upthread, was a violation of credence.

 

[BrumbyJack]

THANK YOU! I thought you'd know.

Where you're marking, it looks like the intersection of Wonnangatta Track, East Riley Road and Van Dammes Track, and there's a lookout with a panoramic shot on Google Maps; but Harry Shepherds Track is a bit further north, after Van Dammes meets Selwyn?

Would the gate only prevent them going north or would it block East Riley Road and the southern side of Van Dammes Track as well?

Yeah all shut off for the bushfires. Thing you have to remember too is that while it looks like there’s other tracks in/out, not very many can be driven with a camper trailer on.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Arguments and fights have started over all sorts of trivial to us things.

I can quite see that Russell and Carol may have had their hearts set on their usual idyllic camping spot near the river and would have let the person who had taken "their" spot know that they weren't happy.
When you go away somewhere, often many times over the years, you do come to see a certain spot as "yours"

Wish they could have left a clue as to what happened, ie a photo of the perp on their phone or something ?

 

[Sher Lock]

@TootsieFootsie Given that R & C were it seems, regular campers, wouldn't they have chosen another spot much further away if their favourite spot was already taken? It doesn't sound like the place was packed with campers that weekend so there would have been ample other spots to choose from.
Perhaps one of them did take a photo of the perp with one of the phones and that sent him over the edge. Also, keeping in mind that neither of their phones have been found.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

They did choose another spot.

@TootsieFootsie Given that R & C were it seems, regular campers, wouldn't they have chosen another spot much further away if their favourite spot was already taken? It doesn't sound like the place was packed with campers that weekend so there would have been ample other spots to choose from.

 

[BrumbyJack]

I think you may be right Zabbie, and that it all came about because of 2 lots of people camping next to each other. Whether they knew each other previously or not. I think words were exchanged first, and then it got out of hand. And possibly alcohol may have been a factor?

We don’t camp near someone on their own. The old man always drilled it in to us to always have a recovery vehicle, and even better, have a recovery vehicle for the recovery vehicle. And if you see a camped single vehicle, ask yourself why. Having said that, we did, once, and turns out the old man was right.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Someone who was incensed by the revelation of Carol's relationship with a married man ?

But who could that someone be? They were in their 70s and the secret affair had been going on for many years. I would have thought that if it was someone known to them, they would have done it years ago.

It seems CC's sister was aware of it but RH's wife and daughters had no idea.

I can't even begin to imagine how devastating it would be to be married for 50 years and then learn not only is he probably deceased but has also had a long-standing affair with someone you've known for decades. The interview with the daughters was terribly sad. In fact the whole story is heartbreaking.

All I can say is I hope whoever did this is caught and punished severely.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

No I don't believe that's what happened.

I was just trying to guess what the poster was trying to say.

But who could that someone be? They were in their 70s and the secret affair had been going on for many years. I would have thought that if it was someone known to them, they would have done it years ago.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I feel for his wife.
It must have been a terrible shock.

 

[jsiar]

I had a (not so pleasant) thought regarding the difference between the hard top on the trailer vs the rounded tarp on the artists impression. Which also ties in with my belief that the photo shown was taken on the way in.
The trailer had the hard lid going in. Then the bodies were placed on top, and a tarp placed over the bodies. Creating a mound on top covered by the tarp.
And the other image/s the police have is of the vehicle leaving the area with the ‘new’ look. Hence the two different looks for witnesses to recall.

Edit: I read back a couple of pages & see that South Aussie posted a similar thought. Is that what you were thinking, too? Makes sense, doesn’t it. They’re clearly different images.

 

[JLZ]

Yeah all shut off for the bushfires. Thing you have to remember too is that while it looks like there’s other tracks in/out, not very many can be driven with a camper trailer on.

So what was open? Zeka Spur obviously. I would have thought if the Myrtleford gate was closed then there would be other closures to the north, the Humffray River region tracks that eventually lead to Hotham area. Russell talked to someone about going to Dargo so at any rate the southern part of the Dargo High Plains Road must have been open. Was the road between Dargo and Hotham (which closes for winter, so why not for bushfires?) available? If the driver could get to Dargo he could go south as well as north. Turning at the Myrtleford gate suggests he wanted to go north--but he might instead have been disposing of bodies out that way and the gate was a convenient place to turn.

What do you think, Hotham via Dargo or Hotham via Gunns Track and antecedents?

 

[SouthAussie]

Would have, if it had been there, and the times allegedly fit. It's a good theory. But the car that turned back could have gone elsewhere.

They probably can deduce (with expert opinion and calculation) that the petrol vehicle that made a 20-30 point turn at the gate was not a car.
Perhaps a car might have been able to make that turn in a 3-5 point turn - due to not pulling a trailer.

Also, maybe a witness heard the "chinking" sound of the trailer safety chain.
Maybe they heard a door opening and closing, and swearing, as the driver struggled to turn the vehicle.
And maybe - among all the CCTV and witness statements - there is not one other vehicle in the valley that night that was pulling a trailer.

imo

 

[SouthAussie]

Another thing that I was thinking is that the police have done this process of elimination with vehicles in the valley that night.

Presumably they have been doing the same process of elimination with mobile phones that used the accessible towers in that general area that night also.
(By 'used' I mean ping data from the towers.)

I wonder if they are (or will be) able to match a vehicle and a mobile phone number.

 

[SouthAussie]

It's interesting that someone near the campsite saw a vehicle matching the description. So if there were two of them, neither driver has come forward.

<RSBM>

I think it is probable that the person who saw the blue vehicle at the campsite would be that person with the white 4WD.

Didn't they say that they entered the area, and saw Russell's burned campsite when they left the area (at a later time)?

Perhaps they saw the blue vehicle when they entered the area - before Russell and Carol arrived.

(Just a guess.)

 

[SouthAussie]

Opportunistic? Maybe! I still cant fathom somebody deliberately killing two elderly, defenseless people. Even if say killing Russell was an accident ie: he was knocked over and hit his head on a rock or something along those lines, then the perpetrator would then turn his attentions to Carol and kill her next. I'd have thought a decent person would have obviously freaked out and then sought medical assistance. The perpetrator could not possibly been of sound mind or perhaps just plain evil. And, surely he/they would realise that other campers were aware of who was in the area given that somebody drove past and was able to identify R & C camping and then the blue Patrol camped or just parked nearby. Truly a strange situation!

I don't think that we have ever heard if Russell's ham radio equipment was recovered. I wonder if there was a bit of theft involved also ... before the perp torched the tent.

There may be some hold back info that the police are holding back.

 

[JLZ]

If the driver of the blue vehicle hadn’t been in the valley how do you account for it being caught on camera more than once?

Are you suggesting the police don’t know what they are doing, that they are following a red herring?

Occam’s razor and all that.

That's what I'm asking, has it been caught on camera anywhere near the campsite? Within five kilometres of the campsite? Anywhere on a route that indicated it was necessarily headed for or leaving from anywhere within five kilometres of the campsite?

I don't know what you're all seeing that I'm not--it could be an article to which I don't have access, it could be something revealed on 60 Minutes. But all I'm getting is a lot of implication and presumption that a car filmed a long way off which might never have been in the Wonnangatta valley is the same as a car heard turning at a blocked exit point a few kilometres from Russell's campsite.

My guess is that police are right and also they know who owns the blue car seen at Hotham. They want the criminal to panic and surrender or do something incriminating. But as far as I can see police can't yet place that car near Russell and Carol.

 

[BreakingNews]

Some great WS'ers here. Thanks for the maps and local knowledge and theories, all with respect for others.

 

[Awakening]

Opportunistic? Maybe! I still cant fathom somebody deliberately killing two elderly, defenseless people. Even if say killing Russell was an accident ie: he was knocked over and hit his head on a rock or something along those lines, then the perpetrator would then turn his attentions to Carol and kill her next. I'd have thought a decent person would have obviously freaked out and then sought medical assistance. The perpetrator could not possibly been of sound mind or perhaps just plain evil. And, surely he/they would realise that other campers were aware of who was in the area given that somebody drove past and was able to identify R & C camping and then the blue Patrol camped or just parked nearby. Truly a strange situation!

You've articulated so well my own thoughts about the "altercation turned murder" scenario.

Unfortunately, you do read about altercations where a person is king hit, head on pavement & dies instantly or later in hospital.

Tends to occur in cities, night out, alcohol involved. The offender may panic and then do a runner, but either surrenders or is found days later.

It's one level of bad to punch & kill someone & flee the scene.

Applying that scenario to this case. The offender has "accidentally" killed somebody during an altercation but they don't "panic & flee".

They decide not only to bury/hide the body and set fire to their belongings they also decide to commit a second murder and kill Carol?

This doesn't sound like an otherwise normal person who got into a fight whilst drunk and did this one off terrible thing.

This sounds more like someone who was comfortable with killing. Someone who was aware about DNA and wanting to destroy all evidence, so possibly he's been incarcerated before or his employment means he's aware of DNA & evidence.

This person was also aware of cameras and tried to avoid them so again points to someone with criminal knowledge.

None of that is consistent with someone panicking. That is some seriously cold-blooded behaviour.

To add to that: the offender has not cracked. Not with time, not with pleas from family, not with their own nagging conscience, not with pressure from police and media.

I don't wish to disparage hunters, but they may be more comfortable with killing. Yet, I'm sure most would say that just because they can hunt & butcher an animal they'd be unable to murder another human let alone 2.

I've never hunted but I've fished and I'm not comfortable with it so rarely do it. When I do catch a fish, I pass it straight to my husband, who takes it off the hook and kills it straight away. My husband can kill the fish & later prepare the fillets but it's not an aspect he enjoys as such. He's conscious about size, quantity and limiting the fish's suffering.

I assume this is the same for any decent hunter. They are not wanting the animal to suffer. The killing & butchering of the animal I imagine is done as respectfully as possible?

That if any hunter who was cruel or who had warped "sense of humour" would stand out? Someone who did things inconsistent with other hunters? Did things that other hunters found distasteful?

If Russell death was an accident from an altercation then surely Carol's was deliberate?

That's quite a different mindset: to kill deliberately with intent as opposed to a "fight that got out of hand".

 

[Awakening]

We don’t camp near someone on their own. The old man always drilled it in to us to always have a recovery vehicle, and even better, have a recovery vehicle for the recovery vehicle. And if you see a camped single vehicle, ask yourself why. Having said that, we did, once, and turns out the old man was right.

What do you mean by a recovery vehicle? Do you mean having 2 cars at your campsite? Or 1 car at the campsite and another car further up the road?

 

[sapphire blue]

The other thing they mentioned in the HS article (for those who may not be able to access the article) is that they think the perp intended Russell's camp to blow ... by leaving the gas cylinder in the burning tent.


Explosive theory in missing camper's case

Gas cylinder and a battery, very lucky it didn’t explode.