Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #7

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JudgeJudi said:
Maybe, but it's probably something else.

May 2022

After a week of searching snow-covered alpine terrain by police, volunteers and his children, the operation to find missing grandfather Christos has been scaled back, with no sign of the 70-year-old.

Christos, whose last name has not been made public, was last seen when he left his holiday accommodation to go for a walk to find emus last Friday afternoon on Big Muster Drive, Dinner Plain, near Mount Hotham.

Search for missing grandfather in Mt Hotham scaled back
Click to expand...
GL was arrested in Nov 2021 and the missing man you refer to above went missing in May 2022 so I'm not sure why you've posted the link. Am I missing something?
 
www.theguardian.com

Former pilot Greg Lynn to stand trial for alleged murders of Victorian campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay

Lynn has pleaded not guilty to murdering the pair, who went missing in 2020 while camping in the Wonnangatta Valley, north-east of Melbourne
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Florence’s statement, which was released to the media on Wednesday, revealed that police moved to arrest Lynn after they feared he might self-harm.

On 22 November 2021, Florence and a colleague were monitoring a surveillance device located in Lynn’s car as he travelled to Gippsland to go camping.

Florence said in his statement that as they were performing this monitoring “the accused appeared to be crying and started talking in the past tense and he was engaged in self talk that was concerning and seemed to indicate a propensity for self-harm”.
 
Sher Lock said:
GL was arrested in Nov 2021 and the missing man you refer to above went missing in May 2022 so I'm not sure why you've posted the link. Am I missing something?
Click to expand...

When I posted what appears below, he asked, "More bodies?"

Police plan to resume searching Victoria’s high country where missing campers disappeared, as a former Jetstar pilot is committed to stand trial charged with their murders.

Florence told the Court that investigators plan to continue searching the remote area.

“We have to go back to Mount Hotham to do a search,” he said.

“It hasn’t been completed due to the weather situation over the last six to eight months.

“That’s the only investigation aspect that I know that needs completing.”

He didn't tell the Court what they were looking for in the Alpine National Park.

https://www.news.com.au/national/vi...e/news-story/2b19970eea5bf2c8aeaeed7add302a5d

Awakening said:
More bodies?
Click to expand...
 
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ScottToorak said:
So GL is happy to explain where he threw keys, burnt drone etc but is not happy to give Police a working example of how the confrontation took place and how CC was accidently shot and then how it came to be that RH was stabbed. I call bulltish on this self defence theory. IMO this was a clear cut double murder probably both shot at range whilst in the tent unaware that they were going to be shot. If CC and RH were kiled as GL states then where is the evidence at the scene?. It did not happen and the whole GL scenerio has been created by GL to try and wriggle out of spending the rest of his days in a jail cell. Police are running with it because they will be concerend about a murder trial and GL being found not guilty on the basis of reasonable doubt. I am thinking a plea deal will occurr where manslaughter will be the outcome with time served and his co operation a further 10 years. Out in 10 years approx. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
At this point, i don't see any plea deal happening.
One interesting question i have is why GL needed to burn evidence that doesn't seem to be related to how he is probably alleging they died. He left lots of things, such as the car, the loo, seemingly in tact...but burnt their tent...hmmm.
 
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TootsieFootsie said:
The court heard another man had been deemed a particular person of interest in the case after he was nominated by Parks Victoria staff.
Man
Sergeant Florence said police had spoken to the man, who lived in the area the campers went missing, but was subsequently ruled out.
Click to expand...
Button Man, I suppose?
 
www.theage.com.au

Greg Lynn pleads not guilty to murders of High Country campers

Former airline pilot Gregory Lynn will stand trial in the Supreme Court over the murders of Russell Hill and Carol Clay as a court heard of the other people police looked at over the deaths.
www.theage.com.au www.theage.com.au

I think it's behind a paywall. It mentions Button Man and Lynn being the two original persons of interest and also mentions that Parks Victoria had nominated a man who lived locally.

I originally thought this referred to Button Man, but this reads as though it wasn't him.

Mentions it has been bad weather delaying the Mt Hotham search for the last six to eight months.
Says it is a search they have to do.
For completeness I guess.

Hill's wife Robyn and daughter Debbie were watching online :(
 
www.canberratimes.com.au

Pilot to stand trial for campers' killings

The former airline pilot ordered to stand trial over the murders of Melbourne campers Russell Hill and Carol...
www.canberratimes.com.au www.canberratimes.com.au

Lead investigator, Detective Sergeant Brett Florence first spoke to Lynn about the missing couple in July 2020 after his dark-coloured Nissan Patrol was picked up by cameras in the Mt Hotham area on March 21 that year.

The vehicle was beige when officers interviewed him on July 14.

"The accused told us that he had painted the car as part of a Covid project with his sons, which was not long after he returned from the camping trip," Det Florence said in a statement.

Lynn was not the only person of interest in the case in mid-2020, the detective said. A local man was identified by Parks Victoria, while another man known as "Button Man" was also interviewed.
 
Throughout the hearing, Mr Lynn has appeared attentive and could be seen consistently taking notes on paper kept in a yellow manila folder.

Family members, including his wife Melanie and eldest son Geordie, who remain supportive of Mr Lynn, have appeared in court remotely via video feed.

Deer hunter, Goran Milikovic, told the court he was camping with a friend nearby when he saw the pair arrive. He told the court he thought it was “strange” they parked so close to two other campers already at the site when there was “plenty of other space” available.

Towards the end of the year other suspects, including someone known as the “Button Man”, had been ruled out and Mr Lynn’s home, car and mobile phone were placed under covert surveillance.

https://www.news.com.au/national/vi...e/news-story/2b19970eea5bf2c8aeaeed7add302a5d
 
How he allegedly killed them or what the motive was has not been revealed in court, although several police witnesses testified they’d been asked to examine a “scenario”.

Under questioning from Mr Dann, these witnesses confirmed they were asked to investigate if Ms Clay could have been killed by an “accidental discharge” as Mr Hill and Mr Lynn allegedly wrestled over Mr Lynn’s shotgun.

Mr Hill was then allegedly fatally stabbed in the fight.

Before the court, Crown prosecutor John Dickie said this account “might not actually reflect” how police intend to put the case against Mr Lynn.

Link
 
Button-Man

Many campers and hunters have stories of him emerging from the dark and approaching them at campsites. He’s described as around 70 years old and “bloody scary”, but no-one reports any threats or violence. He grills them on why they’re there but rarely responds to questions about himself.

At least eight experienced bushmen have had encounters with him and say that no-one knows he’s near until he decides to make himself known.

The last confirmed sighting of Niels Becker was by Button-Man who told police he saw the hiker in his area. Becker's track took him past Button-Man’s camp. Search and Rescue Police hiked into a remote area near King Billy Track to talk to him because he knows the area as well as anyone and sometimes sits off hikers, silently watching them pass.

What has not been revealed is that Hill was in the area a week before, flying his drone near the Button-Man’s campsite.
 
JudgeJudi said:
He was interviewed for a “gruelling nine hours and 18 minutes” - the longest Senior Constable Passingham had ever conducted.

Alleged camper killer arrested after cops heard him talking suicide

9hrs 18 min over 4 days! That equates to 2.32 hours per day. Poor diddums. My heart bleeds.
Click to expand...
In Australia, police interview and question; they do not interrogate. The reason is that police are seeking to find the truth, or facts, that they then used to decide if an offence has been committed and if charges should be laid. Often, in serious matters and if an investigation has occurred, police alone will not decide whether to charge but the decision may be made by the Director of Public Prosecutions, after having received and reviewed a brief of evidence compiled by police.
The procedures involved to get to the point of a person being charged are bewildering - even to legal practitioners.
For an interview to be accepted in court, the person being interviewed must be "competent". That can mean many things, ranging form being sober and not affected by alcohol, not affected by drugs, not experiencing a mental episode, such as being delusional, not overly tired (so interviews can't go on for such a long time the person becomes exhausted and mentally confused - or could be thought so), be able to understand the questions, either because they have limited or no English - and so need an interpreter; or are of low intelligence or other intellectual impairment and would by that impairment be unable follow questions. Aboriginal Australians and immigrants from contries where police and security services are thugs, can also feel intimidated and fearful; hence special provisions for interviews are made for those cases too. Police can't refuse water and food or toilet breaks, so as to induce stress, or anxiety or humiliation. A person can't be prevented from using the toilet in the hope that shame at soiling themselves will induce a "confession".
The aim of the interview is for police to elicit information from the interviewee voluntarily and which is not coerced; and with the interviewee fully aware they are not required to say anything. If courts can be convinced the interview was coerced or the interviewee was in some way forced or coerced into providing information or admissions, the information may be excluded and can't be used in the prosecution. It seems that Mr Lynn's defence team are going to attempt to do this at least for some of the evidence.
One possible line the defence may take - and this is speculation - is that if police believed Mr Lynn was contemplating or intending self harm (and they have admitted they did and this prompted Mr Lynn's arrest) then the conclusion may be drawn that Mr Lynn was in a mental state so fragile that rendered him unfit for interview and that any admissions he made are for that reason inadmissible and can't be used by the prosecution.
We do not know if a doctor or psychologist saw Mr Lynn post arrest and gave a professional opinion that he was in a fit state for interview. If that occurred, that would strengthen the Crown's case that the interviews Mr Lynn gave were conducted in accordance with accepted practices and norms and the information elicited was not coerced or given when he was not fit to do so.
The other reason there appears to have been several interviews over several days is that police have to make a transcript of the interview, review them and decide what questions they will ask. There was an enormous amount of territory that would have been covered. It is likely police would begin when he left his home to travel to the valley, what was he driving, wearing, why was he carrying firearms and a knife, and so on. It would also include such things as if he bought fuel (and where), what route did he take into the valley, what did he do and his movements there, prior to the fateful day. This sets the scene. It gives interviewers a "base line" on how Mr Lynn replies to innocuous questions, the style of language, and the extent of his recollections and their accuracy. He may have made admissions immediately; we do not know. Police will likely "drip feed" information to him, to let him know they have been tracking him for years and also use the technical and witness information first, before the listening devices. But precisely what the police interviewers do - and they receive extensive training - will be determined by My Lynn's answers, his demeanour and so forth.
In short, the interviews that occur are nothing like the interviews we see on Law and Order or so American program.
Police interviews are seldom released in Australia. If you want to see how Canadian police conduct an interview, have a look at this:
. It is basically the same method used here.
 
JudgeJudi said:
How he allegedly killed them or what the motive was has not been revealed in court, although several police witnesses testified they’d been asked to examine a “scenario”.

Under questioning from Mr Dann, these witnesses confirmed they were asked to investigate if Ms Clay could have been killed by an “accidental discharge” as Mr Hill and Mr Lynn allegedly wrestled over Mr Lynn’s shotgun.

Mr Hill was then allegedly fatally stabbed in the fight.

Before the court, Crown prosecutor John Dickie said this account “might not actually reflect” how police intend to put the case against Mr Lynn.

Link
Click to expand...
At the moment, it seems the Crown has theories as to motive but has not committed to any specific motive. Witnesses have examined various hypotheses, why has not been revealed. One reason, and this is conjecture, may be to test Mr Lynn's version of events; and another may be to rule out other possible versions, even if not advanced by Mr Lynn. The idea is that the Crown then may suggest to the jury a version of events is the likely correct one, because it best matches the known information. It seems to me a major hurdle will be for the Crown to establish, beyond a reasonable doubt, intent to kill both Mr Hill and Ms Clay. One part of doing that is to disprove the claim that the discharge of a firearm that killed Ms Clay was accidental rather than intentional. This is why there was discussion of her height, and whether she was crouching, sitting or standing. There will also, I'd suspect questions of her location, the height of Mr Hill and Mr Lynn, how fit each was and whether the blast from the firearm did destroy the mirror of Mr Hill's vehicle. In the case of Mr Hill being stabbed to death, it seems the Crown has an easier case to prove. But this also turns on who was killed first and the manner of death of the victims.

The Crown do not have to provide a motive. The Crown needs to establish intent to kill or intentionally act so as to cause really serious injury or knowing it was probable that death or serious injury would result, that the act was voluntary and that there was no lawful justification to performing the act. See: Murder & Manslaughter Defence Lawyers Victoria | Sher Criminal Lawyers and Murder and Manslaughter Offences | Galbally & O’Bryan Lawyers, Melbourne.
The Crown must believe it has a strong case to prove intent.
 
Arboreal said:
In Australia, police interview and question; they do not interrogate. The reason is that police are seeking to find the truth, or facts, that they then used to decide if an offence has been committed and if charges should be laid. Often, in serious matters and if an investigation has occurred, police alone will not decide whether to charge but the decision may be made by the Director of Public Prosecutions, after having received and reviewed a brief of evidence compiled by police.
The procedures involved to get to the point of a person being charged are bewildering - even to legal practitioners.
For an interview to be accepted in court, the person being interviewed must be "competent". That can mean many things, ranging form being sober and not affected by alcohol, not affected by drugs, not experiencing a mental episode, such as being delusional, not overly tired (so interviews can't go on for such a long time the person becomes exhausted and mentally confused - or could be thought so), be able to understand the questions, either because they have limited or no English - and so need an interpreter; or are of low intelligence or other intellectual impairment and would by that impairment be unable follow questions. Aboriginal Australians and immigrants from contries where police and security services are thugs, can also feel intimidated and fearful; hence special provisions for interviews are made for those cases too. Police can't refuse water and food or toilet breaks, so as to induce stress, or anxiety or humiliation. A person can't be prevented from using the toilet in the hope that shame at soiling themselves will induce a "confession".
The aim of the interview is for police to elicit information from the interviewee voluntarily and which is not coerced; and with the interviewee fully aware they are not required to say anything. If courts can be convinced the interview was coerced or the interviewee was in some way forced or coerced into providing information or admissions, the information may be excluded and can't be used in the prosecution. It seems that Mr Lynn's defence team are going to attempt to do this at least for some of the evidence.
One possible line the defence may take - and this is speculation - is that if police believed Mr Lynn was contemplating or intending self harm (and they have admitted they did and this prompted Mr Lynn's arrest) then the conclusion may be drawn that Mr Lynn was in a mental state so fragile that rendered him unfit for interview and that any admissions he made are for that reason inadmissible and can't be used by the prosecution.
We do not know if a doctor or psychologist saw Mr Lynn post arrest and gave a professional opinion that he was in a fit state for interview. If that occurred, that would strengthen the Crown's case that the interviews Mr Lynn gave were conducted in accordance with accepted practices and norms and the information elicited was not coerced or given when he was not fit to do so.
The other reason there appears to have been several interviews over several days is that police have to make a transcript of the interview, review them and decide what questions they will ask. There was an enormous amount of territory that would have been covered. It is likely police would begin when he left his home to travel to the valley, what was he driving, wearing, why was he carrying firearms and a knife, and so on. It would also include such things as if he bought fuel (and where), what route did he take into the valley, what did he do and his movements there, prior to the fateful day. This sets the scene. It gives interviewers a "base line" on how Mr Lynn replies to innocuous questions, the style of language, and the extent of his recollections and their accuracy. He may have made admissions immediately; we do not know. Police will likely "drip feed" information to him, to let him know they have been tracking him for years and also use the technical and witness information first, before the listening devices. But precisely what the police interviewers do - and they receive extensive training - will be determined by My Lynn's answers, his demeanour and so forth.
In short, the interviews that occur are nothing like the interviews we see on Law and Order or so American program.
Police interviews are seldom released in Australia. If you want to see how Canadian police conduct an interview, have a look at this:
. It is basically the same method used here.
Click to expand...
That method they use in Canada - is very skillful.

But also the setup with the criminal in the corner and in full white suiting and the Police representative in a suit also is a form of breaking down the criminal visually and stripping his power base from the start prior to the interview.

The tone of voice - slightly monotonous and slow but assertive also is very tactful to strip away his power (criminal) as well - it is done in such a slow manner - there is such a long process of pleasantries before any serious questions. I don't want to say cohersive control but certainly feels the control is all in the Officers hands. Its very strategic. MOO
 
rh did a solo trip to this site only days before, if it was to set up or reserve a spot with maybe a belonging, i can see why he would feel possibly outraged to pull into camp with cc and see other people had already disregarded his "reserved" space and could explain why he parked so close to them, as witnessed by the deer hunter gm, like making an aggressive point?
still feeling angry, the drone flying may have been to spite the other campers?
 
TootsieFootsie said:

Throughout the hearing, Mr Lynn has appeared attentive and could be seen consistently taking notes on paper kept in a yellow manilla folder.

Family members, including his wife Melanie and eldest son Geordie, who remain supportive of Mr Lynn, have appeared in court remotely via video feed.
Click to expand...
Note to self: the next time I'm on trial for murder, I must remember to bring a notebook to take notes. All the best murderers do it.
 
Kemug said:
Note to self: the next time I'm on trial for murder, I must remember to bring a notebook to take notes. All the best murderers do it.
Click to expand...

A bit of trivia .....

I was reading a true crime book that was at trial stage. The defendant was advised by their lawyer to write on a pad (anything they wanted to write ... squiggles, doodles, real stuff) so that the defendant would look down and distract themselves, and not have readable facial expressions or readable reactions to what was being said.
 
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