Autopsy

[close_enough]

I'm kind of seeing that also. Did they have a fireplace in the master bedroom?

i THINK 'we' all came to the conclusion that there was a fireplace downstairs in the living room, to the left of the house (if you're facing the house)....not sure how this was determined though....i know the chimney comes out on the left side of the house...IMO, i would think a house with one fireplace, it would be in the living room, not in a bedroom....jmo

he could have simply walked in the living room, picked it up & proceeded up the stairs with it....

 

[close_enough]

welcome DonnaB

 

[LvsAMystry]

well, we know they had a fireplace in the house....it's sure possible that a poker was used then, huh?

Most definitely. I also think it has the right weight and would be grippable enough for the force that was obviously used in this. Although the lamp seems to make sense in some respects, I'd think it'd be hard to get the kind of grip needed to deliver blows like that.

OTOH, would the perp have gotten the poker first? If so, why not just use it instead of attempting to strangle first as it seems happened.

 

[PrayersForMaura]

i don't think the clothing really works against her being killed late night, but it DID give me reason to pause & think about it.....people are all so different...i can't sleep in sweats of any kind...just too hot, even in the winter...i don't know too many people that sleep in sweat pants, a t-shirt, & a hooded sweatshirt...actually, i don't know anyone that sleeps in a hooded sweatshirt...

I sleep in a sweatshirt quite often in the fall and winter months. Motly non-hooded, but I slept in a hooded sweatshirt the other night because I fell asleep watching a movie.

Some people just get cold easily and like to sleep in warmer clothes

 

[close_enough]

Most definitely. I also think it has the right weight and would be grippable enough for the force that was obviously used in this. Although the lamp seems to make sense in some respects, I'd think it'd be hard to get the kind of grip needed to deliver blows like that.

OTOH, would the perp have gotten the poker first? If so, why not just use it instead of attempting to strangle first as it seems happened.

good point......thinking

 

[panthera]

In one of the early articles on wral.com, a profiler said that when a woman is beaten in the head and face to the point where she is unrecognizable or nearly so, the perpetrator is almost always someone who knew her and was very close to her. The mutilation of the face is the perpetrator's way of protecting his own psyche from admitting what he's done - he destroys her face, thus destroying her as an individual human, and he sees only that he has killed "it".

I'll post the link if I find it again. Quite an interesting theory.



Donna B. in Raleigh, NC

Scott Dyleski beat Pamela Vitale to death, with a rock it was assumed by the State. Both her murder and Michelle's have similiar characteristics, yet Dyleski was a 16-year old neighbor, involved in a credit card fraud scheme, said to be using drugs, hero-worshipped serial killers and the like. How would that murder fit into the profile you referenced, I wonder?

 

[concernedperson]

i THINK 'we' all came to the conclusion that there was a fireplace downstairs in the living room, to the left of the house (if you're facing the house)....not sure how this was determined though....i know the chimney comes out on the left side of the house...IMO, i would think a house with one fireplace, it would be in the living room, not in a bedroom....jmo

he could have simply walked in the living room, picked it up & proceeded up the stairs with it....

Or after attempted strangulation when she was winded and trying to breathe, walked down and pick it up. Caught her blindsided while she was lying on her right side and hit her hard on her left side.

Natural movement would be to roll over and out of the way of the blow.

 

[panthera]

i THINK 'we' all came to the conclusion that there was a fireplace downstairs in the living room, to the left of the house (if you're facing the house)....not sure how this was determined though....i know the chimney comes out on the left side of the house...IMO, i would think a house with one fireplace, it would be in the living room, not in a bedroom....jmo

he could have simply walked in the living room, picked it up & proceeded up the stairs with it....

Some two story homes have one upstairs also, and the reason I asked is that if he picked up the poker downstairs, why the manual strangulation if he had a weapon in his hand?

 

[close_enough]

Or after attempted strangulation when she was winded and trying to breathe, walked down and pick it up. Caught her blindsided while she was lying on her right side and hit her hard on her left side.

Natural movement would be to roll over and out of the way of the blow.

hmmm, could be CP...could be!

we know at some point he tried to strangle her, hmmmm

 

[close_enough]

Some two story homes have one upstairs also, and the reason I asked is that if he picked up the poker downstairs, why the manual strangulation if he had a weapon in his hand?

right panthera....thinking here....

ok, i THINK early on there was a layout of the home where it was stated "one fireplace", but i could be wrong....gosh, that was in the first couple of threads, so i have no idea where to find it now....ugh

 

[panthera]

I sleep in a sweatshirt quite often in the fall and winter months. Motly non-hooded, but I slept in a hooded sweatshirt the other night because I fell asleep watching a movie.

Some people just get cold easily and like to sleep in warmer clothes

Oh I do too especially in the winter, but the black pants ?? (And more deja vu of Laci :doh: )

 

[LvsAMystry]

Or after attempted strangulation when she was winded and trying to breathe, walked down and pick it up. Caught her blindsided while she was lying on her right side and hit her hard on her left side.

Natural movement would be to roll over and out of the way of the blow.

Seems non-rageful even though thats not a word. There is a difference in the killer who strangles and an enraged beating I think. Mayhe her fight kicked the rage in I don't know. Or, I wonder if she heard something while still downstairs and grabbed the poker in defense while immediately going upstairs to be close to her baby and to possibly make emergency call if needed. Maybe she had the poker and that was not supposed to happen. That would enrage this carefully planned scenario I'd think. All speculation of course, I wish there were just a bit more details.

 

[close_enough]

Or after attempted strangulation when she was winded and trying to breathe, walked down and pick it up. Caught her blindsided while she was lying on her right side and hit her hard on her left side.

Natural movement would be to roll over and out of the way of the blow.

i'm starting to kind of see it this way....maybe she passed out; didn't die; he knew she was still breathing, THEN he went downstairs & got the weapon???...i don't know though...seems that woudn't make sense..if she was passed out, that would have been the 'perfect' time to keep strangling her, right??

ugh....almost seems like the weapon had to be something that was in the bedroom...something that was used after strangling didn't work.....

i'm bumfuzzled....

 

[LvsAMystry]

Some two story homes have one upstairs also, and the reason I asked is that if he picked up the poker downstairs, why the manual strangulation if he had a weapon in his hand?

Exactly what I wondered above also.

 

[jilly]

right panthera....thinking here....

ok, i THINK early on there was a layout of the home where it was stated "one fireplace", but i could be wrong....gosh, that was in the first couple of threads, so i have no idea where to find it now....ugh

Yes - I think I actually asked you and you looked up the floor plans or whatever which stated one fireplace.

 

[PrayersForMaura]

In one of the early articles on wral.com, a profiler said that when a woman is beaten in the head and face to the point where she is unrecognizable or nearly so, the perpetrator is almost always someone who knew her and was very close to her. The mutilation of the face is the perpetrator's way of protecting his own psyche from admitting what he's done - he destroys her face, thus destroying her as an individual human, and he sees only that he has killed "it".

I'll post the link if I find it again. Quite an interesting theory.



Donna B. in Raleigh, NC

I remember reading something similar, too. There was another murder not too long ago with a profile similar to this. It as in NC, too. The man was still living with his wife, although they were separated. He was a professor. Their daughter was at school when the husband attacked his estranged wife. He wound up confessing to murdering her by beating her from behind and hen in the face while she was wrapping presents. The profiler said it was a hate-filled murder with the perpetrator intentionally destroying the victim's face...
It's in a thread in the "crimes in the news" forum.

 

[panthera]

right panthera....thinking here....

ok, i THINK early on there was a layout of the home where it was stated "one fireplace", but i could be wrong....gosh, that was in the first couple of threads, so i have no idea where to find it now....ugh

I wouldn't know where to look now either! The house I grew up in had one chimney with a downstairs and upstairs fireplace, so if there was one in the bedroom he could've grabbed the poker when his attempts at strangling her failed with her fighting him off. Just thinking <shrug>

 

[close_enough]

Seems non-rageful even though thats not a word. There is a difference in the killer who strangles and an enraged beating I think. Mayhe her fight kicked the rage in I don't know. Or, I wonder if she heard something while still downstairs and grabbed the poker in defense while immediately going upstairs to be close to her baby and to possibly make emergency call if needed. Maybe she had the poker and that was not supposed to happen. That would enrage this carefully planned scenario I'd think. All speculation of course, I wish there were just a bit more details.

i tend to think that could have happened Lvs...he didn't expect such a fight/struggle to kill her & it made him 'see red' so to speak....

your other scenario sounds plausible to me too......yeah, a bit more detail is what we need....i imagine more is coming soon...

 

[jilly]

Seems non-rageful even though thats not a word. There is a difference in the killer who strangles and an enraged beating I think. Mayhe her fight kicked the rage in I don't know. Or, I wonder if she heard something while still downstairs and grabbed the poker in defense while immediately going upstairs to be close to her baby and to possibly make emergency call if needed. Maybe she had the poker and that was not supposed to happen. That would enrage this carefully planned scenario I'd think. All speculation of course, I wish there were just a bit more details.

That's another good point! You're really sleuthing here Lvs! :clap:

 

[close_enough]

Yes - I think I actually asked you and you looked up the floor plans or whatever which stated one fireplace.

yeah, it was posted one night ....either RC or Otto posted this layout of the home...just can't remember....i'm going to look for a minute or so; see if i can find it...