AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #20

[Anita Richman]

If she is alive in town she would have to be hidden well because her picture is everywhere, on every public door you enter, drive thru windows etc. I feel like if she was taken over the border she has a better chance.

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There are documented cases where strangers have abducted children and kept them in homes within MILES of the family home. There are cases in Tucson where parents have imprisoned their own children, in rooms, for years, without raising the alarm of neighbors. One of those cases occurred close to the Celis home. The only way it came to light is that the girl somehow escaped and found her way to a former friend's home and asked for help.

 

[GutFeeling!]

Good info, thank you!

So a state doesn't necessarily have to have a "sunshine law" to bring these documents to light? I personally agree with the public having access, but under what right or fed. law is this possible? I apologize in advance for my ignorance.

No, it is all under the Freedom of Information act. I will try and find the tutorial on it if you like and send it to you privately (been a while since I actually read about it)

Not ignorance at all Most information people want is not a problem, it becomes a problem when reporters want information about ongoing cases. It certainly doesn't guarantee you get everything but you can also ask why you can't get certain parts - usually it is obvious though.

 

[GutFeeling!]

Actually found this which is a simplified version of the act. It aplies to any department not just police.

http://www.vah.com/departments/legal/foia.aspx

 

[Knox]

Where in the report does it say there was an alert by the tracking dog in that area? :waitasec:
I read the report as there was no alert in that area and the dog was not with the K9 units at that time as it was put away due to extreme heat conditions but the units continued to search on foot without the dog. JMO

Re-read the 1st paragraph in the document.

 

[Anita Richman]

No, it is all under the Freedom of Information act. I will try and find the tutorial on it if you like and send it to you privately (been a while since I actually read about it)

Not ignorance at all Most information people want is not a problem, it becomes a problem when reporters want information about ongoing cases. It certainly doesn't guarantee you get everything but you can also ask why you can't get certain parts - usually it is obvious though.

Thanks Guts, I would like that, a lot!!

Good night, all! I appreciate your perspectives, theories and opinions; even if I don't agree with them. We ALL want justice for sweet Isa.

:Off to pad and soften my figurative brick wall: :banghead:

 

[Kat]

just an opinion and as an aside.

I've had the experience of requesting info under the FOIA. Here was the problems I encountered:

1. I had to have previous knowledge of exactly what I needed. In other words, I had to know the type of form (which in my instance required the offical form type which required a number) that contained the infomation that I wanted. I had to include the name of that form and the exact information included on that form that I wanted. If (and there was) an ongoing criminal investigation then certain info would be redacted ( and it was).

It has been my experience that a FOIA request will not always get you the info you want unless you know 1. what you are looking for 2. on what type of form the information is located on 3. that the information that is requested can't be redacted because of an ongoing criminal investigation.

Just offering my experience, mine was not with AZ but with the DA (department of Army)

 

[makayla]

Thanks Guts, I would like that, a lot!!

Good night, all! I appreciate your perspectives, theories and opinions; even if I don't agree with them. We ALL want justice for sweet Isa.

:Off to pad and soften my figurative brick wall: :banghead:

BBM . . . absolutely - we all care about that precious little girl - let's pray someone finds her and those responsible are charged and punished for whatever they may have done

 

[cluciano63]

If the Freedom/Info act covered these docs in this way...why wouldn't every case have to eventually release them? I know each state is different, but some cases go back two or more years and we've not seen a thing...surely the media would have tried...JMO

 

[makayla]

Saying goodnight and THANK YOU to those who work so hard to keep track of all the docs and info. in this case - I am always amazed the amount of time and energy that is spent to assist us in sorting out the facts and rumors that abound.

Off to catch some zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . . . . . .:smile:

 

[GutFeeling!]

just an opinion and as an aside.

I've had the experience of requesting info under the FOIA. Here was the problems I encountered:

1. I had to have previous knowledge of exactly what I needed. In other words, I had to know the type of form (which in my instance required the offical form type which required a number) that contained the infomation that I wanted. I had to include the name of that form and the exact information included on that form that I wanted. If (and there was) an ongoing criminal investigation then certain info would be redacted ( and it was).

It has been my experience that a FOIA request will not always get you the info you want unless you know 1. what you are looking for 2. on what type of form the information is located on 3. that the information that is requested can't be redacted because of an ongoing criminal investigation.

Just offering my experience, mine was not with AZ but with the DA (department of Army)

Yep you are correct, I was going to put up the legislation but it is all in legal jargon and gets lost in a minute lol

There are different needs for different departments, I used to have to file at least one every week for a while (the paper I worked for had a cruddy relationship with police) - when we built bridges I never had to file another one with the PD again.

 

[twall]

Re-read the 1st paragraph in the document.

My question was where does it say there was an alert in the area of S. Essex and E. 14th St.? It doesn't, it was an assumption and a lot of times assumptions can turn into facts. Just trying to keep the assumptions clarified so they don't turn into facts.

 

[GutFeeling!]

If the Freedom/Info act covered these docs in this way...why wouldn't every case have to eventually release them? I know each state is different, but some cases go back two or more years and we've not seen a thing...surely the media would have tried...JMO

A lot of the media doesn't try (sadly) - probably because today's news is history tomorrow. But you can request any information you want as a citizen - there are usually charges involved for each request and each page provided.

When the media do try they usually add that to the story eg: "The Dallas Morning News yesterday filed a request for a copy of the search warrant, under the Freedom of Information Act, with Justice of the Peace Brad Dunfield which was served on the Smith household, the day Misty was murdered .." (or something like that lol)

We like to show our readers/viewers that we are bending over backwards for them.

 

[Knox]

I'm reading the 4th part right now.

Interesting ... I understand the need to create a crime scene map, nice visual tool for investigators. But what are all the references to the master closet? Just a point of reference?

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/563532/pdf-celis-4-found-pillow-possible-sightings
Start at page 43 and read down.

 

[Kat]

Yep you are correct, I was going to put up the legislation but it is all in legal jargon and gets lost in a minute lol

There are different needs for different departments, I used to have to file at least one every week for a while (the paper I worked for had a cruddy relationship with police) - when we built bridges I never had to file another one with the PD again.

It's a real pain in the bootie isn't it? I felt like I was playing cat and mouse with the information I was seeking for sure!

I did finally get what I asked for which I had to jump through hoops, it took months and I had to enlist the help of someone who knew exactly what I needed to ask for and guess what? It was a mostly redacted form!

LOL just sharing!

 

[twall]

just an opinion and as an aside.

I've had the experience of requesting info under the FOIA. Here was the problems I encountered:

1. I had to have previous knowledge of exactly what I needed. In other words, I had to know the type of form (which in my instance required the offical form type which required a number) that contained the infomation that I wanted. I had to include the name of that form and the exact information included on that form that I wanted. If (and there was) an ongoing criminal investigation then certain info would be redacted ( and it was).

It has been my experience that a FOIA request will not always get you the info you want unless you know 1. what you are looking for 2. on what type of form the information is located on 3. that the information that is requested can't be redacted because of an ongoing criminal investigation.

Just offering my experience, mine was not with AZ but with the DA (department of Army)

Ugh, that reminds me of when I tried to read US government documents pertaining to the the Abu Ghraib incident-most everything was redacted because it was "highly sensitive" information. I gave up after scrolling through pages of black marks! :maddening:

 

[Knox]

My question was where does it say there was an alert in the area of S. Essex and E. 14th St.? It doesn't, it was an assumption and a lot of times assumptions can turn into facts. Just trying to keep the assumptions clarified so they don't turn into facts.

BBM-That I don't know?

I posted it to reference the dog hit at the home on East Cooper. That's the house directly across the alley from the Celis home. LE broke into the house and searched it based on the tracking dog's reaction.

 

[Dr. Know?]

The LE are not going to release info they are still investigating. It's a doc dump. They have way better than what we are reading. Maybe some of what was released has been discounted or some might not be their strongest information pertaining to an incident reported. It's leftovers. You can't base too much on them as we just don't know yet for sure. I find myself checking all kinds of names etc...since the release, checking hits, directions, vent pipes on roofs, that red stained shower curtain bacteria (Serratia marcescens) & so on. I file it as needed.

May Isabel be found! Please let her be found walking around somewhere or dropped off & brought home to those her love her. It has to be pretty painful for the innocent. My heart is with them.

 

[pieper4]

It's a real pain in the bootie isn't it? I felt like I was playing cat and mouse with the information I was seeking for sure!

I did finally get what I asked for which I had to jump through hoops, it took months and I had to enlist the help of someone who knew exactly what I needed to ask for and guess what? It was a mostly redacted form!

LOL just sharing!

I had the same experience with Vietnam POW FOIAs. You wait and wait... then get a sheaf of black.

 

[gngr~snap]

Reddish-brown stain!
Could be so many things! Hair color, old dried dog urine, hard water stains, a type of wood "stain" in general... why the heck would it be on a shower curtain AND in Isa's bedroom as well? Then placed in an unoperable vehicle? :banghead:
It can't be human blood! The car was not taken by LE!
Did a dog have puppies on the shower curtain in Isa's room? grrr!
Was some furniture stained in there?

I agree. It wasn't human blood SC and RC would have never left it in a car or on the floor!
However an unknown perp could have BUT the car is still there!!! isn't it?

 

[Azcrabcakes]

If there's a bathroom, there probably is a vent pipe for gases on the roof sticking up. I don't get a good veiw via google to tell. I see two a/c units/swamps on the east & west sides of the house, the middle livingroom area has a fire place type chimney though.

The guns were from the SO's house with the VW Jetta, right? Not Isa's home.

An orange, pink or reddish stain on a shower curtain is a bacteria. It can resemble a light blood stain. Highly infecticious & is found in hospitals etc...I'll look it up tomorrow & post.

You might mean Serratia marcesen, a Gram-negative rod IIRC. A common nosocomial infection - even used to grow in disinfectant years back. We don't use that kind of disinfectant any longer!

The black gloves are not rare here in AZ, despite the heat. My hubby has several pair as work gloves; dumping RV waste, loading thorned branches onto the truck to toss after trimming, etc. Yard work is brutal here in the summer.

Yes, drops of blood can turn brown very quickly as the iron in the red cells is oxidized by the oxygen in the air. Bloody gauze in the hospital turns brown and dries in minutes. But at this point, we don't know what the substance is!