Thanks, Anita. I hope the prosecutor jumped on those witnesses with both feet. You're absolutely right. There's a big difference between behavioral problems and retardation. I also don't think ADD (yet!) warrants leniency from the courts. Sheesh!
AZ - New developments in the Cindy Monkman Apelt case
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Japan - Miyazawa family of 4 murdered, Setagaya, Tokyo, 30 Dec 2000 #3- Latest: Incoherent
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Anita Richman
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You're welcome. This afternoon two family members have testified. One, a niece and the other is a sister (her mother). They both talked about the abusive childhood(s) the brothers endured and that Michael had "poor sentence structure" as a child. How the niece, who is 5 years younger than Michael, could recall that from when SHE was five is beyond me!
lorann
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I am just horrified that these creeps and our own "justice" people are involved with trying to release this scum back into society. Being evil before incarceration, think how much more they have learned how to beat the system... We all learned of KCL's story and were relieved the murderers had been taken care of when she began her reporting for all of us during the Peterson case. Now, after all of this, we are dumbfounded how this can happen. I will follow this and am sending warm thoughts and prayers for Katy and her father.
If I was to be awarded freedom and possibly a big settlement based on an IQ test, i shur wud not bee to smart whin i tuk it.
If I was to be awarded freedom and possibly a big settlement based on an IQ test, i shur wud not bee to smart whin i tuk it.
fran
Former Member
Anita:
Thank you for the updates. I can't wait until this is all over and Katy and her dad can step back from this horrible ordeal.
I so hope the judge isn't buying this stuff. Kind of reminds me of the Peterson trial in that the only 'defense' charactor witnesses they could come up with were from the defendents childhood, not one when he was an adult. (other than his parents, and they don't count, imo)
There comes a time in life when we make grown-up decisions to do what's right or what's evil. These guys took the wrong fork in the road. Everything I've seen so far as their defense goes, doesn't point towards retardation but more to just plain 'evil.'
I don't think sentence structure has anything to do with plotting to and carrying through a murder for profit. The planning that went into this crime in itself, points to a higher intelligence than a person with limited mental capacity could make up.:behindbar
Looking forward to your next update.
JMHO
fran
katiecoolady
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for remaining concerned about this hearing. This stage of it is over for now but it became "bifurcated" as in to be continued in July. The Defenders piled on 2, maybe 3 more experts for the State to deal with so the Judge gave the State 60 days to prepare for them. Although one defense atty said it's still up in the air if they will call them (our attorney says at least two of them could cut both ways) so we'll see what happens.
I attended the first two days of the hearing and the last two days. I testified during the first two.
I'll give a little synopsis of what I saw and heard. First , the disparity was striking. On "our" side was the AG's attorney (who is apparently quite low paying and very new to the AG's office/case and had never done any Death row trial before although she did quite well in spite of the strikes against her going in to it) her paralegal and Cathy, our former prosecutor working FOR FREE. The second day of the hearing the Supreme Court overruled Judge A's decision to kick her off and she was back on. Thank God. On the other side were anywhere from 4-6 attorneys working for the Fed. Legal Defender's office, much of the time just watching the hearing. And at least 2 investigators there daily. And the German Consul from Germany, other attorneys from the Public defender's office and other lawyers just watching w/ interest. It was packed over there almost daily. By people being paid to sit there and watch.
There were many civilian witnesses who testified to the killers' behavior before and after the murder. including women they had conned and romanced and stolen from (one of whom Rudi sent himself a telegram in her presence which stated Michael had been killed in a car crash and she gave him several hundred dollars for the "funeral"--some "mentally retarded behavior huh"). A realtor who they'd signed a contract with on a 400K home who wined and dined them. They acknowledged they understood the terms of the contract in German AND English--again pretty good for mental retardation. Two sisters surfaced after reading an article last summer in the paper about this hearing who remembered meeting him and Cindy at a Thanksgiving dinner that Fall. Their testimony was quite poignant talking about him being the "life of the party" and creating a party game out of his English/German dictionary, teaching them lessons on German. One of them walked out and said to her sister "Cindy got really lucky...he's a great catch". Sigh.... Again, don't think many people would think that of the mentally retarded. Both of those sisters were quite tearful talking about how that chance encounter, while he was plotting to kill cindy, has affected them their whole lives. Yup.
The State has a VERY good expert, Dr. Moran, who basically told the story about how they are textbook "Antisocial Personalities" and not "Mentally Retarded" (duh) and how part and parcel of that includes their various LIES including the LIES they told the IQ examiners! (they both tested below the cutoff of 70 while on DR--what a surprise!). The word "malingering" of course came up alot. So did the word "common sense".
The defense put on 3 experts so far. The one I saw was a Dr. Ruff, a neuropsychologist who is quite impressed with his resume and himself. He was making crap up like how they were hit with steel rods on the head multiple times and sustained multiple concussions in childhood rendering them brain damaged. He had absolutely ZERO facts to back that up--no MRI's or brain scans, medical records , nothing but THEIR reports. "just my impressions". He was a buffoon who melted down during cross examination requiring the Judge to request a 5min. break so he would calm down. His emotional reaction threw his credibility out the window--he was going to justify his opinion at all costs even against reason. He was almost comical if he wasn't such a misogynist pig. The Judge asked him about their sporadic` work history in their teens and twenties which he defined as "mentally retarded" and said "couldn't that be just that they were lazy and didn't want to work?". haha She's catching on ...it's not hard to do.
Dr. "Ruffoon 'also said he did NOT review one piece of evidence related to the time period of the crime, to determine if they were mentally retarded at the time the commited the crime. Some logic, huh? He felt it wasn't pertinent! (scratching my head)
The last day they went out with a whimper. Flying over from Germany a doddering elderly man who had taught Michael in Junior High (he went to a special school for his numerous BEHAVIOR problems--a little antisocial in training). Not only did our tax dollars (Fed. so yours AND mine) pay for him to teeter over for his first trip to the US to testify for like 20 min. about things he was obviously coached on and inconsequential but we also paid for his WIFE to come with him! Woohoo! A free trip to the US paid for by the US taxpayers. He even testifed to being "excited" to be there! His first trip to the US--a free one at that, with his wife! Excited indeed! I wonder if they pushed him up to the Grand Canyon the next day in a wheelchair to make the journey worth his while.
His intern also testified to a thesis she'd done on Michael's class where she described him crawling under his desk to go around the room pinching other kids in the legs and making a paper airplane instead of the assigned mask and throwing it around the room to be disruptive. She called him "hyperactive". He obviously was a little oppositional child who no one could control. But that's mentally retarded? Our prisons are filled with 'em.
Then their sister and her daughter got their free trip to the US paid for by the tax payers to testify for about 15 min each. About their bad childhood and how the "neice" of the killers remembers from when she was 5 years old that they were playing with her at her BD party and, them being 10 years older than her, she, the 5 year old thought that was "age inappropriate" and noting at 5 they used "improper sentence structure". Coached. Period. Her mother (their sister) testified almost word for word using the same terms although she was way older, moved out of the house and cut of ties with the family when they were toddlers, had not had any contact w/ either of them since 5 years BEFORE the crime (nearly 25 years) and was even vacationing in the US when they were here on their murder spree and had no idea they were even here. Yet she had her little crocodile tears. Sorry, didn't buy any sympathy from me. She cut off ties with these little evil boys for a REASON ya think?
My father is very upset at the AG's office and has drafted a letter. He sat there EVERY day in court and witnessed at least 5, full time paid attorneys for the Legal Defender's office on the other side (we hear they make up to 250K) and on our side our ONE inexperienced low paid lawyer and Cathy working FOR FREE. Their side was filled with interested parties as we basically learned this is being tried as a "test case" to see how to argue this Atkins (the MEnt. Ret. ruling) and test the parameters. Translation..see how far they can manipulate the system. When i said the Scott Petersons of the world are watching with interest, I was more right than I thought. They are trying to establish precedence for ALL the DR inmates to see what they can argue and get away with.
The good news is I think the Judge is seeing right through it all. She was very fair and her own questions showed us where she was leaning w/ her thoughts. I don't think she will rule in their favor. And I DO think my father being there every day and me 4 days made a difference.
The Supreme Court meets on 5/22 to decide if the decision to allow them to plead the 5th and not testify in this hearing will stand. If that is overrulled, the State may call them to testify. That's still up in the air. But at least it will also set precedence so sociopath killers on DR can't pull this argument (well the highly paid attorneys working for them I mean) and not have to be even SEEN by the finder of fact.
My conclusion? More than ever, I am convinced that the WORST OF THE WORST of our society receive the BEST OF THE BEST legal assistance. That's without a doubt. It is a valid argument to abolish the DP to give those skilled attorneys something more meaningful to fight for. But then again, it might just sick them on freeing the Corporate criminals of the world--not much difference.
That's it for now.....
Thanks for remaining concerned about this hearing. This stage of it is over for now but it became "bifurcated" as in to be continued in July. The Defenders piled on 2, maybe 3 more experts for the State to deal with so the Judge gave the State 60 days to prepare for them. Although one defense atty said it's still up in the air if they will call them (our attorney says at least two of them could cut both ways) so we'll see what happens.
I attended the first two days of the hearing and the last two days. I testified during the first two.
I'll give a little synopsis of what I saw and heard. First , the disparity was striking. On "our" side was the AG's attorney (who is apparently quite low paying and very new to the AG's office/case and had never done any Death row trial before although she did quite well in spite of the strikes against her going in to it) her paralegal and Cathy, our former prosecutor working FOR FREE. The second day of the hearing the Supreme Court overruled Judge A's decision to kick her off and she was back on. Thank God. On the other side were anywhere from 4-6 attorneys working for the Fed. Legal Defender's office, much of the time just watching the hearing. And at least 2 investigators there daily. And the German Consul from Germany, other attorneys from the Public defender's office and other lawyers just watching w/ interest. It was packed over there almost daily. By people being paid to sit there and watch.
There were many civilian witnesses who testified to the killers' behavior before and after the murder. including women they had conned and romanced and stolen from (one of whom Rudi sent himself a telegram in her presence which stated Michael had been killed in a car crash and she gave him several hundred dollars for the "funeral"--some "mentally retarded behavior huh"). A realtor who they'd signed a contract with on a 400K home who wined and dined them. They acknowledged they understood the terms of the contract in German AND English--again pretty good for mental retardation. Two sisters surfaced after reading an article last summer in the paper about this hearing who remembered meeting him and Cindy at a Thanksgiving dinner that Fall. Their testimony was quite poignant talking about him being the "life of the party" and creating a party game out of his English/German dictionary, teaching them lessons on German. One of them walked out and said to her sister "Cindy got really lucky...he's a great catch". Sigh.... Again, don't think many people would think that of the mentally retarded. Both of those sisters were quite tearful talking about how that chance encounter, while he was plotting to kill cindy, has affected them their whole lives. Yup.
The State has a VERY good expert, Dr. Moran, who basically told the story about how they are textbook "Antisocial Personalities" and not "Mentally Retarded" (duh) and how part and parcel of that includes their various LIES including the LIES they told the IQ examiners! (they both tested below the cutoff of 70 while on DR--what a surprise!). The word "malingering" of course came up alot. So did the word "common sense".
The defense put on 3 experts so far. The one I saw was a Dr. Ruff, a neuropsychologist who is quite impressed with his resume and himself. He was making crap up like how they were hit with steel rods on the head multiple times and sustained multiple concussions in childhood rendering them brain damaged. He had absolutely ZERO facts to back that up--no MRI's or brain scans, medical records , nothing but THEIR reports. "just my impressions". He was a buffoon who melted down during cross examination requiring the Judge to request a 5min. break so he would calm down. His emotional reaction threw his credibility out the window--he was going to justify his opinion at all costs even against reason. He was almost comical if he wasn't such a misogynist pig. The Judge asked him about their sporadic` work history in their teens and twenties which he defined as "mentally retarded" and said "couldn't that be just that they were lazy and didn't want to work?". haha She's catching on ...it's not hard to do.
Dr. "Ruffoon 'also said he did NOT review one piece of evidence related to the time period of the crime, to determine if they were mentally retarded at the time the commited the crime. Some logic, huh? He felt it wasn't pertinent! (scratching my head)
The last day they went out with a whimper. Flying over from Germany a doddering elderly man who had taught Michael in Junior High (he went to a special school for his numerous BEHAVIOR problems--a little antisocial in training). Not only did our tax dollars (Fed. so yours AND mine) pay for him to teeter over for his first trip to the US to testify for like 20 min. about things he was obviously coached on and inconsequential but we also paid for his WIFE to come with him! Woohoo! A free trip to the US paid for by the US taxpayers. He even testifed to being "excited" to be there! His first trip to the US--a free one at that, with his wife! Excited indeed! I wonder if they pushed him up to the Grand Canyon the next day in a wheelchair to make the journey worth his while.
His intern also testified to a thesis she'd done on Michael's class where she described him crawling under his desk to go around the room pinching other kids in the legs and making a paper airplane instead of the assigned mask and throwing it around the room to be disruptive. She called him "hyperactive". He obviously was a little oppositional child who no one could control. But that's mentally retarded? Our prisons are filled with 'em.
Then their sister and her daughter got their free trip to the US paid for by the tax payers to testify for about 15 min each. About their bad childhood and how the "neice" of the killers remembers from when she was 5 years old that they were playing with her at her BD party and, them being 10 years older than her, she, the 5 year old thought that was "age inappropriate" and noting at 5 they used "improper sentence structure". Coached. Period. Her mother (their sister) testified almost word for word using the same terms although she was way older, moved out of the house and cut of ties with the family when they were toddlers, had not had any contact w/ either of them since 5 years BEFORE the crime (nearly 25 years) and was even vacationing in the US when they were here on their murder spree and had no idea they were even here. Yet she had her little crocodile tears. Sorry, didn't buy any sympathy from me. She cut off ties with these little evil boys for a REASON ya think?
My father is very upset at the AG's office and has drafted a letter. He sat there EVERY day in court and witnessed at least 5, full time paid attorneys for the Legal Defender's office on the other side (we hear they make up to 250K) and on our side our ONE inexperienced low paid lawyer and Cathy working FOR FREE. Their side was filled with interested parties as we basically learned this is being tried as a "test case" to see how to argue this Atkins (the MEnt. Ret. ruling) and test the parameters. Translation..see how far they can manipulate the system. When i said the Scott Petersons of the world are watching with interest, I was more right than I thought. They are trying to establish precedence for ALL the DR inmates to see what they can argue and get away with.
The good news is I think the Judge is seeing right through it all. She was very fair and her own questions showed us where she was leaning w/ her thoughts. I don't think she will rule in their favor. And I DO think my father being there every day and me 4 days made a difference.
The Supreme Court meets on 5/22 to decide if the decision to allow them to plead the 5th and not testify in this hearing will stand. If that is overrulled, the State may call them to testify. That's still up in the air. But at least it will also set precedence so sociopath killers on DR can't pull this argument (well the highly paid attorneys working for them I mean) and not have to be even SEEN by the finder of fact.
My conclusion? More than ever, I am convinced that the WORST OF THE WORST of our society receive the BEST OF THE BEST legal assistance. That's without a doubt. It is a valid argument to abolish the DP to give those skilled attorneys something more meaningful to fight for. But then again, it might just sick them on freeing the Corporate criminals of the world--not much difference.
That's it for now.....
katiecoolady
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Here is a link to Dr. Ruff who got so defensive/offensive on the stand shattering his own credibility (to many who were watching--it was pretty astounding for a "distinguished" psychologist!).
http://www.ronruff.com/bio.html
He is Swiss but identifies himself as German. He often spoke of "in our culture" meaning the German culture and had that same air of superiority the killers had--Germans are smarter, neater, than Americans, etc. He said the reason they failed the "poor grooming" aspect ( they were the opposite..impeccably groomed and still are in prison!) of his mental retardation diagnosis is because of their German heritage where apparently everyone, including the retarded, are impeccably well groomed and neat! Again, buffoon.
He was an embarassment to his profession with another obvious agenda--probably less $$ and more political.
http://www.ronruff.com/bio.html
He is Swiss but identifies himself as German. He often spoke of "in our culture" meaning the German culture and had that same air of superiority the killers had--Germans are smarter, neater, than Americans, etc. He said the reason they failed the "poor grooming" aspect ( they were the opposite..impeccably groomed and still are in prison!) of his mental retardation diagnosis is because of their German heritage where apparently everyone, including the retarded, are impeccably well groomed and neat! Again, buffoon.
He was an embarassment to his profession with another obvious agenda--probably less $$ and more political.
katiecoolady
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One more final note then I'm done for now.
I've heard a figure that this hearing ALONE, no other hearing or any legal argument for these killers or costs to house and feed them, has cost taxpayers nearly 5 million tax dollars. Numerous trips to Germany on their behalf, etc. etc.
$$$$$FIVE MILLION DOLLARS AND COUNTING$$$$$!!!!
To argue these sociopaths should get off death row for mental retardation.
It's mind boggling, seriously.
Before signing off for now, my sincere thanks for all of your warm thoughts and concern. It's well appreciated, believe me.
I've heard a figure that this hearing ALONE, no other hearing or any legal argument for these killers or costs to house and feed them, has cost taxpayers nearly 5 million tax dollars. Numerous trips to Germany on their behalf, etc. etc.
$$$$$FIVE MILLION DOLLARS AND COUNTING$$$$$!!!!
To argue these sociopaths should get off death row for mental retardation.
It's mind boggling, seriously.
Before signing off for now, my sincere thanks for all of your warm thoughts and concern. It's well appreciated, believe me.
accordn2me
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Yes. Katie, thanks for the update. I will keep you and your dad in my prayers and hopefully justice will be served and these two will have their rightful sentences carried out.
I've seen the very thing speaks of happen in my beloved home state of Louisiana just recently. There was no doubt this murderer committed the crime as charged. He was retried 4 times and in my book got off on a legal technicality - blacks were discriminated against being on GRAND JURIES! A murderer is free today. The argument for so long was - "Wilbert has spent 40 years in the Louisiana State Penitentiary in Angola, longer than any criminal offender in the history of Calcasieu Parish." So, because other murderers had been paroled, he should be too! This man was originally given a death sentence! Like Karla Faye Tucker, his advocates claim he is "reformed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilbert_Rideau
angelmom
The love stays...forever in our hearts
(((Katie))) Somehow I've just read this thread (I put too much stock in the titles, I think) but please know my thoughts and prayers are with you as you and your dad wait out the ending of this ordeal. I remember reading about Cindy during the Peterson trial, and I have never forgotten her.
I hope this case ends up being a map for other families who may have to face a killer with a fake low IQ and a bored anti-DP atty. You are a paragon of strength, patience, hope and determination.
Hang in there!
I hope this case ends up being a map for other families who may have to face a killer with a fake low IQ and a bored anti-DP atty. You are a paragon of strength, patience, hope and determination.
Hang in there!
katiecoolady
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Yeah, that is one of many personal ads he and his brother have on the internet seeking paramours and $$$. He is very articulate. Some letters were read in court on Friday that he wrote from his cell recently where he was requesting sandals and "safety scissors" in perfect English and using words like "aforementioned" and "furthermore" yet the creepy "expert" said that sounded like a 6th grade level communication. It was unreal. Of course he stuck to "6th" grade as that is the level that coincidentally corresponds to the mental retardation cutoff level in adults.
Edited to add that you'll note in that ad he claims he's innocent and wrongfully convicted (aren't they all?). In this hearing, they are conceding they commited the crime but that they were "mentally retarded" when they did it. Yet, if this argument fails for them, his attorneys will go right back to trying to claim he's yet another "innocent" killer on Death Row if it serves their argument.
sounds like the "expert" needs a IQ test imo.
katiecoolady
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fran
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Katie:
Thanks for the update. I pray that the judge can see through this ridiculous defense ploy and the 'suits' in the viewing section see it's not going to be that easy to use the 'retarded' defense. These low life's footprints that they're NOT retarded are far and wide.
Prayers for you and your dad and Justice for Cindy.
fran
Thanks for the update. I pray that the judge can see through this ridiculous defense ploy and the 'suits' in the viewing section see it's not going to be that easy to use the 'retarded' defense. These low life's footprints that they're NOT retarded are far and wide.
Prayers for you and your dad and Justice for Cindy.
fran
JDB
Tybee you will never be forgotten
Katie has this one been decided yet?