Baby Pageants

[Barbara]

No, they're not pretty much the same. Yes, it is the same when one takes their child to the activities of their choice.

It's quite different in the levels they take it to

Soccer mom = okay
Soccer mom who browbeats their child after losing = NOT okay

Little league dad = okay
Little league dad who gets into fistfights with other parents and umpires = NOT okay

Cheerleader parent = okay
Cheerleader parent who murders the mother of a cheerleading competitor = NOT okay

Pageant mom = okay
Pageant mom who bleaches the hair of a 6 year old, spends thousands of dollars on showgirl costumes, dance and singing lessons, denies it's more than a "few Sunday afternoons", worries about a photo shoot when their child has chicken pox marks on her face, etc., etc. = NOT okay

So there are, in fact, differences and they are all not alike or the same at all.

For the record: I never felt the pageants had anything to do with the murder, but always wondered why Patsy played it down. Pageants for children are not something I find acceptable on those levels, but I never held that against the Ramseys when discussing this murder.

But once again, Patsy's denial of the importance of the pageants in their life sent my suspicions soaring as she showed herself to be a liar. One then wonders what else she lied/s about.

Arielle,

As per my post earlier in the discussion, it's not the activity that is the problem for most of us; like all sports, ballet, dance, piano, and even schoolwork, it's the level that the parents take it to. After a certain level, it is no longer an activity for the children; it becomes the focus for the PARENTS and then harmful for the children.

 

[tipper]

I've asked before and never got any feedback. How many pageants in total was JonBenet in? I've read it was only 12 or so over a span of a couple years but don't know the source for that number.

 

[why_nutt]

I've asked before and never got any feedback. How many pageants in total was JonBenet in? I've read it was only 12 or so over a span of a couple years but don't know the source for that number.

The figure of two years is often cited, but really, JonBenet's pageant career spanned a year and a half, from July of 1995 to December of 1996. At nine pageants (ten if she had lived to be in the Hawaiian Tropic pageant in January of 1997), JonBenet did a pageant an average of every other month. If that is to be thought of as not very much, then I wonder whether the same perspective would apply if the example was changed. If you had to take your child to the hospital for dialysis for two or three days every other month, would you say that is hardly any time at all spent in the hospital, just a few Sunday afternoons?

 

[Toth]

"AuntPam told me about this a long time ago in one of our many chats."
And THAT is a reliable source?

Yes. Somewhat too naive and trusting but quite honest and reliable.

 

[Ivy]

According to ACandyRose's JonBenet index archive, DOI (p. 60) states she was in nine pageants in two and a half years. I don't know if that's the total number of pageants she was in altogether, though. Regardless, that's a lot of pageants!

 

[Toth]

How many piano lessons do forum member's daughters get in two and a half years?
How many softball games in two and a half years for little league types?

 

[Ivy]

Toth, I don't consider piano lessons and soccer games to be valid comparisons to pageants.

To my chagrin, when my daughter was 17 she entered our city's preliminary to the Miss America pageant...and won. She was runner-up in the state preliminary MA pageant.

The year she spent involved in pageants was stressful and grueling, and she was physically and emotionally exhausted by the time the state pageant rolled around. Maybe kiddie pageants aren't as demanding, but from what I've seen go on behind the scenes in TV documentaries on kiddie pageants, they are.

Edited to add that my daughter finally realized it's brains, not beauty, that counts, and is now a nuclear physicist.

 

[why_nutt]

How many piano lessons do forum member's daughters get in two and a half years?
How many softball games in two and a half years for little league types?

Piano lessons and softball games are in no way comparable to pageants. Piano lessons and softball playing both involve continous honing of the body's skills with fingers and hand-eye coordination, and that sort of thing requires steady practice. In piano and softball, there are strict rules. If a piece of music requires one hit a B-flat note at a certain point, it must be hit or one has failed. If a ball game requires that one hit a ball so that it cannot be caught in time to prevent the hitter from reaching base, it must be hit or the player is out. Children can play pianos or ball games all by themselves in an empty room, and still be subject to the rules which govern the activity. Pageants, on the other hand, are entirely arbitrary and subject only to the physical tastes of the adult men and women who judge them. There is no right way to be blond at a pageant, no right way to be pretty, no right away to be perky. But there are many, many wrong ways to be those things, many, many ways to be the blondest, prettiest, perkiest child at the pageant and still have the adult judges give out low scores, as if a child's blond hair or perkiness can or should be given a score.

 

[Barbara]

Piano lessons and softball games are in no way comparable to pageants. Piano lessons and softball playing both involve continous honing of the body's skills with fingers and hand-eye coordination, and that sort of thing requires steady practice. In piano and softball, there are strict rules. If a piece of music requires one hit a B-flat note at a certain point, it must be hit or one has failed. If a ball game requires that one hit a ball so that it cannot be caught in time to prevent the hitter from reaching base, it must be hit or the player is out. Children can play pianos or ball games all by themselves in an empty room, and still be subject to the rules which govern the activity. Pageants, on the other hand, are entirely arbitrary and subject only to the physical tastes of the adult men and women who judge them. There is no right way to be blond at a pageant, no right way to be pretty, no right away to be perky. But there are many, many wrong ways to be those things, many, many ways to be the blondest, prettiest, perkiest child at the pageant and still have the adult judges give out low scores, as if a child's blond hair or perkiness can or should be given a score.

BRILLIANT ANALOGY!!!! :clap:

 

[Maxi]

I would have to ask all of you who feel that the pageants are something bad if you also think that ballet classes, sports participation, talent shows, etc are also a bad thing to allow children to do. My little girl just turned 4. She was so excited because she got to start dance classes on Tuesday. Its all she can talk about. We've already gone out to buy her dance outfit (leotard, ballet shoes, tap shoes, tights,etc). She will be in a recital in June and I know she'll be wearing some kind of costume with sequins and such on it and doing a dance. Will this adversely affect her? I already put makeup on her sometimes because she asks me to. I even let her wear makeup in our family Christmas portraits. Seh is a beautiful child (and I'mt not just saying it because she is mine, I've had many people tell me she should model) and doesn't need makeup to be prettier. But she wanted some and I was wearing it. So I put a little lipstick and a sparkly blush on her. She was quite happy about it. She has all kinds of dress up clothes that are meant to be worn over clothes because you can see right through them, but she doesn't. And I let her. She also wants to learn to be a belly dancer because she saw one at Disneyworld and was completely fascinated by her. She got up on the stage and danced with the belly dancer.

Now, if it is the competition that is the problem, rather than the dressing up, then you must have issues with sports too. I was a competitive swimmer. I started when I was 5 and swam through college. Was it wrong of my parents to start me that young? I don't think so. It is something I enjoyed doing for 17 years! And you know what, speed in the water hasn't helped me one bit in my career. But the confidence it gave me sure has.

It just makes me so mad to see all these people say that Patsy and other pageant moms are bad mothers because they participated in the pageants. To me it is a nice family activity. The moms are involved in their children's lives. That's a good thing. And before you say, but hey, Patsy dyed JonBenet's hair, take a look at the Jury Room typical websleuther dye job thread. More than 1/2 of us dye our hair. Yes we are adults and can make that decision ourselves. But, if you look at my post there, you'll see that from my swimming and being outside a lot, my hair was blonde until I stopped swimming all the time when it grew in dark. I can beleive that JonBenet's blonde hair was due to sun and maybe a little help along with lemon juice or "Sun In."

Arielle, I have two daughters who are now happy and successful young women. Both took dance classes for 15 years. They did the big deal recitals, the shows, the competitions, etc. wearing makeup, sequins, sometimes scanty costumes and plenty of rhinestones. At the studio, they learned discipline, poise, grace, respect for their bodies, pride in a job well done, and the value of teamwork. They also made lots of good friends and were far too busy to get into trouble during their teen years. One is now in law enforcement and the other is in college.

If your daughter enjoys the dance classes, I say go for it!

 

[Bubble1421]

My two year old has been participating in pageants since she was 2 months old. She has won Queen multiple times. She has more confidence than most 2 years olds. She also is not afraid to speak in public, does not shy away when someone talks to her, can speak in complete sentences, & follows directions well. My two younger sisters (age 6 & 11) also started pageants at the same time my daughter did. They absolutely love it! They have also started doing better in school since that time.

A lot of the issues have to do with the parents. If you are going to do them, it has to be FUN. If you take it to heart when your child doesn't win or turns wrong, etc. you will run into problems. When the child says I don't like this or this isn't fun any more that is the time to stop. But if they are excited to go and love performing I don't see a problem with it. The pageants they participate in (including Hawaiian Tropic) does not allow makeup on the little kids. Pre-teens are allowed to have some make up but not excessive.

I have been to the nationals and let me tell you, some of the parent's are monsters. They yell at the kids when they don't win. Most of those kids are little monsters themselves. Pulling hair, saying nasty comments to other girls, yelling when they don't get their way etc. It all depends on the parents. If they win great, if they don't get queen that is okay too. It also teaches them good sportsmanship, just like participating on a sports team.

My daughter has won a lot of money in scholarships which she will benefit from later in life. Pageants are not all bad. Some people just choose to look at the few "sore thumbs" and don't see the majority of the participants.

 

[K777angel]

How many piano lessons do forum member's daughters get in two and a half years?
How many softball games in two and a half years for little league types?

Since when do 3 yr olds - or even 1 yr olds for that matter - play little league of take piano lessons?? They DO however get pushed into "beauty pageants" by their ego hungry mothers trying to live their lives through them. (Patsy Ramsey even titled one of her book chapters "LIKE MOTHER, LIKE DAUGHTER" - all about the pageants. Go figure.

Whether they are 3 or 5 or 10 - to purposely dye and tease a little girl's hair, put on adult looking make-up and troll them out in gaudy and sometimes provocative outfits (as Patsy sometimes did with JonBenet) - is just plain disgusting. The EMPHASIS is on how they LOOK - not how they play the piano, their acting part in the play, T-Ball or violin. Otherwise - why would they spend an inordinate amount of time and money on photo shoots, dress fittings, hair appointments, etc. etc.?
False eyelashes, mascara, blush and lipstick on a little 5 yr old girl COMPETING to look prettier (or sexier) than other little girls is child abuse in my book. No wonder JonBenet would even THINK of a such an observation of herself at age 6 as "I don't feel PRETTY." Who the hell do you think put THAT into her head?? WHO told her it was so important?? Enough to cry over?

 

[tipper]

...False eyelashes, mascara, blush and lipstick on a little 5 yr old girl COMPETING to look prettier (or sexier) than other little girls is child abuse in my book.

Then we can presume you are out campaigning to have them made illegal?

 

[Cain]

Many photos of kids in pageants show little girls dressed and maked-up as grown women dress and make-up when they want to be seductress. Jonbenet's pageant photos are a good example of that.

Comparing pageant activity with piano classes is just nonsense.

______________________________________

This is just my opinion.

 

[Toth]

No wonder JonBenet would even THINK of a such an observation of herself at age 6 as "I don't feel PRETTY." Who the hell do you think put THAT into her head?? WHO told her it was so important?? Enough to cry over?

What on earth makes you think such an event took place?

 

[Maxi]

I think Janet McReynolds reported that JBR said that. I could be wrong, tho.

I think pageants can be tacky, but I'm not so sure they are harmful in an concrete way. They are not at all pc, that's for sure. But I have seen moms and dads spank their children for doing poorly in sports events and even in music recitals. I really think the problem is pushy parents, not the activity itself.

The real question before us, tho, is what part does JBR's pageant participation play in her murder. Is it an indication that Patsy had trouble figuring out where Patsy stopped and JBR started? Was Patsy a pushy parent who might abuse JBR if she said she didn't want to perform? Did some pedophile see JBR at a pageant and stalk her? Or was some man who preferred adults women so turned on by her mini-woman look that he was led to molest and murder her?

Of course, the most interesting scenario would be if JBR was murdered by a jealous pageant mom trying to eliminate the competition.

 

[Toth]

I think Janet McReynolds reported that JBR said that. I could be wrong, tho.

Right, the wife of what many view as a suspect in the case. Have you found ANYONE who was there that night that agrees with Mrs.Santa's impression of the night?

 

[Ivy]

Toth, you often use Pam Paugh as your source of info on the case...and she's the sister of the woman most people view as THE main suspect in the case. So...if you need collaborating testimony in order to accept as truth something that Janet McReynolds described, perhaps you'll be good enough to provide collaborating testimony to back up what Pam Paugh tells you.

 

[MIBRO]

sorry, no post

 

[Toth]

>Toth, you often use Pam Paugh as your source of info on the case...
No not often.
>she's the sister of the woman most people view as THE main suspect
No most people view the parents as totally innocent of anything except sound sleeping in the first degree
>if you need collaborating testimony in order to accept as truth
>something that Janet McReynolds described,
When not ONE of several others present that night has anywhere near the recollection that Janet McReynolds does, I am indeed suspicious.