Blue Fibers

[UKGuy]

That sounds more likely.I just wonder why everyone keeps saying she was wiped with the shirt.

JMO8778,

Because someone wiped JonBenet down, and I assume the only fibers found were the ones alleged to have originated from his black woolen shirt?

So some think John possibly wiped JonBenet down with his shirt. I suppose just as plausible is someone used her size-6 underwear for this purpose.

Anyway thats the charitable explanation, less so are the ones that involve sexual activity!




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[Eagle1]

I've read that DNA gets planted these days, criminals all getting sophisticated, and guess anyone would know to try to get rid of their own DNA in such a situation.

We can't prove it was JR or that it was not JR using his short or whatever.
Looking back through threads I printed out from about 1999-2000, I was reminded that JAR's blanket in the suitcase with the Dr. Seus book was a university one, black and gold, mainly. I don't remember if there was any blue in it. Back then there was speculation the fibers could have come from that. I didn't see anything today in that old binder about a shirt.

There was a Tim Bindner in Ca. volunteering to families of kidnapped children to help look for them. And I found Sketchman. I don't keep up with Karr any more, but Sketchman really does look like him!

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Paging,

You seem very knowledgeable on this whole thing. I never realized that fibers from John's shirt (from Israel) were found in JB's underwear. Maybe because I was hearing the Ramsey's side of things that there were fibers all over the place.

Paging, what do you think happened. I am very very interested in your opinion. :banghead:

I really don't think I'm all that knowledgeable about this case, because I only got any interest in it at all since the hoopla of John Mark Karr. Most of my interest is because of the intreging aspects of the shinanigans of the DA's office, various attorneys and other political entities. That said, it only took a few days of research to figure things out. I don't count what the Ramseys say because they're suspects, I don't pay much attention to what's said in various books other than Thomas's since he was an officer actively involved in the case, and I'll get most of my info directly from the sources that actually matter... the transcripts, photos, expert findings and criminal statistics.

I also have no personal dog in this fight, so I can be open-minded and follow the evidence to where it actually leads rather than where I might WANT it to lead. It's no skin off my nose if the Ramseys did it or not... I have no personal interest in their guilt or innocense.

That said, ALL the evidence points to the Ramseys. Every bit of it. Yes, there are strange coincidences, but there usually are in most cases especially when one is looking for them.

My opinion is the obvious one that the Ramseys did it and through their connections with the DA's office and various people of influence in the area, they didn't go directly to jail the morning after Christmas and stay there, which is exactly what would have happened if this was any one of us.

I tend to think what happened to JBR was an act of rage that resulted in a head blow followed by staging to point to an outsider and save the Ramseys from jail and damage to their reputations and social standing. I'm tending toward the belief that JR was molesting his daughter, PR knew about it, the head blow occurred as a result of rage probably from PR, and JR wasn't involved until after physical staging was completed by Patsy. I'm undecided as to whether it was JR, Burke or Patsy's father that was molesting JBR, but am tending toward the belief that it was JR.

Whether the head blow was an accident or act of rage or who it came from I'm open to debate about, but tend to think it was an act of rage that came from Patsy either because she caught someone molesting her daughter or some other incident such as toilet rage. However, the Ramseys are BOTH guilty of trying to cover-up what happened to JBR, and JR is still trying. Patsy may have done all the physical staging, but at some point, JR went along with it which makes him just as guilty.

If the Ramseys were just average people without their political connections this would never have been such a convoluted case and probably solved before Smit ever had his little prayer meeting/pay off negotiation session with the Ramseys.

Every day all over the country there are similar cases involving average parents and NONE of this nonsense of wondering whodunit and years going by without the case being "solved" would have occurred. It wouldn't even be news. The parents would have been taken into custody that morning in handcuffs, interrogated separately, and one of them would have cracked.

 

[rashomon]

I'm tending toward the belief that JR was molesting his daughter, PR knew about it, the head blow occurred as a result of rage probably from PR, and JR wasn't involved until after physical staging was completed by Patsy. I'm undecided as to whether it was JR, Burke or Patsy's father that was molesting JBR, but am tending toward the belief that it was JR.

I believe that John Ramsey got involved as soon as Patsy realized that irreparable damage had been done to JB by the head-bash she had delivered to her in a rage.
No way imo would a hysterical person like Patsy have been able to carry all that staging through in cold blood alone, including the ransom note. In addition, in order to do that, Patsy would have had to be absent from the common master bedroom for hours. Wouldn't John have woken up at least once during the night to go to the bathroom, have found Patsy's side of the bed empty and wondered where she was?
The fibers from John's shirt in the crotch area of the far too large size 12 underwear which JonBenet was wearing point to his involvement in the staging process too: it was probably John who redressed the dead (or almost dead) JB, having no clue as to what size of underwear JB normally wore (size 6).

 

[UKGuy]

I believe that John Ramsey got involved as soon as Patsy realized that irreparable damage had been done to JB by the head-bash she had delivered to her in a rage.
No way imo would a hysterical person like Patsy have been able to carry all that staging through in cold blood alone, including the ransom note. In addition, in order to do that, Patsy would have had to be absent from the common master bedroom for hours. Wouldn't John have woken up at least once during the night to go to the bathroom, have found Patsy's side of the bed empty and wondered where she was?
The fibers from John's shirt in the crotch area of the far too large size 12 underwear which JonBenet was wearing point to his involvement in the staging process too: it was probably John who redressed the dead (or almost dead) JB, having no clue as to what size of underwear JB normally wore (size 6).

rashomon,
All possible, whomever dreamt up the ransom-note come bedside abduction is surely the person who decided JonBenet must wear underwear, any size but it must be Wednesday day-of-the-week, because if they are going to put her to bed and undress her down to and including her size-6 underwear, then they should still be in her bedroom, which they are not. The person who organized this 2nd staging must have redressed her in those size-12's because they had Wednesday stamped on them?

Also if we assume JonBenet arrived back from the White's and did not go directly to bed but stayed up, had a pineapple snack etc, then at some later point went to bed, then wet the bed? Fuelling the toilet rage theory, why was she left wearing the long-underwear and size-12's, or alternately, why did she not wear her own bedclothes which were under her pillow, is it fair to asume she did not retire to bed wearing her size-6 underwear, black velvet pants, and white-gap top?

I suspect JonBenet never ever reached her bed that night, and that the toilet rage theory is not consistent.


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[JMO8778]

rashomon,
All possible, whomever dreamt up the ransom-note come bedside abduction is surely the person who decided JonBenet must wear underwear, any size but it must be Wednesday day-of-the-week, because if they are going to put her to bed and undress her down to and including her size-6 underwear, then they should still be in her bedroom, which they are not. The person who organized this 2nd staging must have redressed her in those size-12's because they had Wednesday stamped on them?

Also if we assume JonBenet arrived back from the White's and did not go directly to bed but stayed up, had a pineapple snack etc, then at some later point went to bed, then wet the bed? Fuelling the toilet rage theory, why was she left wearing the long-underwear and size-12's, or alternately, why did she not wear her own bedclothes which were under her pillow, is it fair to asume she did not retire to bed wearing her size-6 underwear, black velvet pants, and white-gap top?

I suspect JonBenet never ever reached her bed that night, and that the toilet rage theory is not consistent.


.

I wonder that as well.I keep thinking of the child's scream being heard in the basement by the neighbor.(Or, at least they proved it could have been heard from there).Assuming it did,I can't think of that being toilet rage, unless PR made JB walk downstairs with her to the basement to get her a clean blanket and nightgown,as part of her punishment,and that's when she lost it.
And why would she scream anyway? It sounds like she was being hurt somehow first,and I can't see that happening if she was being choked,and esp. not after she was hit on the head,she prob. would have been out immediately after that.

 

[JMO8778]

I suspect JonBenet never ever reached her bed that night, and that the toilet rage theory is not consistent.


.

Apply the opposite theory here:

R's say she went straight to bed.
Evidence says she didn't.
=likely she never did.

 

[UKGuy]

Apply the opposite theory here:

R's say she went straight to bed.
Evidence says she didn't.
=likely she never did.

JMO8778,

I know, but it helps to demonstrate, why if you assume the Ramsey facts are correct and the Toilet Rage theory holds some water, no pun intended, then why should there be these inconsistencies?

As per the scream its possible that this was the onset of a violent assault, the following blows, and/or strangulation intended to silence JonBenet?


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[rashomon]

rashomon,
All possible, whomever dreamt up the ransom-note come bedside abduction is surely the person who decided JonBenet must wear underwear, any size but it must be Wednesday day-of-the-week, because if they are going to put her to bed and undress her down to and including her size-6 underwear, then they should still be in her bedroom, which they are not. The person who organized this 2nd staging must have redressed her in those size-12's because they had Wednesday stamped on them?

Also if we assume JonBenet arrived back from the White's and did not go directly to bed but stayed up, had a pineapple snack etc, then at some later point went to bed, then wet the bed? Fuelling the toilet rage theory, why was she left wearing the long-underwear and size-12's, or alternately, why did she not wear her own bedclothes which were under her pillow, is it fair to asume she did not retire to bed wearing her size-6 underwear, black velvet pants, and white-gap top?

I suspect JonBenet never ever reached her bed that night, and that the toilet rage theory is not consistent.

I don't think JB ever went to bed that night either, but I would not rule out a toilet rage scenario at all.
Suppose JB wet (or soiled) the panties she was originally wearing when she hadn't gone to bed yet, and while cleaning her up, Patsy snapped and lost it?
And later, when the Ramseys tried to stage a scene, they put the oversized size 12 panties on her because it was important that Wednesday was written on them, I agree with your explanation on that.
The urine which later stained the longjohns and the size 12 panties too was probably from post-mortem release.

I have a question: did JB have the same type of underwear in size 6 too? If yes, has the size 6 pair with Wednesday on it ever been found? For if not, this too would point to toilet rage imo, for in that case the Ramseys probably got rid of this damaging piece of evidence.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think JB ever went to bed that night either, but I would not rule out a toilet rage scenario at all.
Suppose JB wet (or soiled) the panties she was originally wearing when she hadn't gone to bed yet, and while cleaning her up, Patsy snapped and lost it?
And later, when the Ramseys tried to stage a scene, they put the oversized size 12 panties on her because it was important that Wednesday was written on them, I agree with your explanation on that.
The urine which later stained the longjohns and the size 12 panties too was probably from post-mortem release.

I have a question: did JB have the same type of underwear in size 6 too? If yes, has the size 6 pair with Wednesday on it ever been found? For if not, this too would point to toilet rage imo, for in that case the Ramseys probably got rid of this damaging piece of evidence.

rashomon,
OK she wets her pants while still awake, this must mean her black velvet pants were wet in some manner also, and that can be tested forensically, give Steve Thomas a call on this one. Tweaking the theory so it fits the evidence is a sure sign of an inconsistent theory.

The search warrants do not itemise the underwear by manufacturer, or even by size, just as childs underwear e.g.

Ramsey warrant dated December 27, 1996

(1) girls underwear (56BAH)
(1) girls underwear (61BAH)
(1) girls underwear (62BAH)
five pair girls underwear (76BAH)
two pair girls underwear (77BAH)

Someone once mentioned that the size-6's were bloomingdales, but this has never been confirmed.

I feel either way the analysis pins the size-6/size-12 underwear aspect down.
1. initial assumption: they are urine stained

If the size-6 are removed to hide the cause of the Toilet rage, then why is JonBenet left wearing urine stained long-underwear and size-12 underwear?

This as per Steve Thomas would point directly to the initial cause?

2. amended assumption: they are blood stained

The size-6's were removed to cover up a sexual assault, real or staged.

To facilitate this she was redressed in the size-12's, a Wednesday pair to make believe that the Ramsey's statements about Jonbenet being placed straight to bed are consistent.

This latter point demonstrates how the wine-cellar crime-scene is revised to accord with the ransom-note scenario. And her being wiped down seems to just underline this?

3. amended assumption: they are semen stained

Similar conclusions follow as in 2. except its not toilet rage anymore.


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[Eagle1]

Your points #2 and 3 are important.

The normal size panties MUST have contained evidence that would have defined this crime, reason they had to disappear.

If we were to find out there was semen on them we'd have to completely start over from most peoples' current opinions.

Does BPD maybe have them? Probably the killer(s) took them, I know. And she was beaten and all this other rage stuff because she'd attempted the 911 call a couple of nights before, probably. That would have cause rage and fear in any chronic molester. She was in an "I'm telling" mood, growing up. To him a danger and a smart alec brat who needed to be taught a big permanent lesson. Provoking a killer that way is a lot bigger than provoking parents.

 

[ellen13]

Your points #2 and 3 are important.

The normal size panties MUST have contained evidence that would have defined this crime, reason they had to disappear.

If we were to find out there was semen on them we'd have to completely start over from most peoples' current opinions.

Does BPD maybe have them? Probably the killer(s) took them, I know. And she was beaten and all this other rage stuff because she'd attempted the 911 call a couple of nights before, probably. That would have cause rage and fear in any chronic molester. She was in an "I'm telling" mood, growing up. To him a danger and a smart alec brat who needed to be taught a big permanent lesson. Provoking a killer that way is a lot bigger than provoking parents.

OMG-just thought of something-maybe john karr wanted sex reassignment surgery so that he could confess to the crime and he knew he would get the notoriety because he wouldn't have semen matching. can you imagine someone wanting to change their sex just so they couldn't prove he didn't do the crime?

 

[kelly london]

the panties on JBR that were WAY too big are the only thing that makes me think patsy did not do this - she is a mother - there is no way she would put size 14 panties on her daughter. a woman would not make this mistake

 

[BBB167893]

But you forget: those oversize panties meant a lot to JB.

 

[rashomon]

the panties on JBR that were WAY too big are the only thing that makes me think patsy did not do this - she is a mother - there is no way she would put size 14 panties on her daughter. a woman would not make this mistake

You think the intruder took the time to rummage in JB's drawers in order to find panties with 'Wednesday' on them? And: why would a sexual predator go to the trouble to put underwear back on JB at all? This doesn't make sense.

And let us not forget 'Occam's razor': fibers from John Ramsey's black shirt were found in the crotch area of the size 12 panties.
Whether he was the perp or the helper in the cover-up - the fiber evdence links JonBenet's father to this garment.

 

[sandraladeda]

OMG-just thought of something-maybe john karr wanted sex reassignment surgery so that he could confess to the crime and he knew he would get the notoriety because he wouldn't have semen matching. can you imagine someone wanting to change their sex just so they couldn't prove he didn't do the crime?

They could test his dna without semen. A sex change would not alter his dna....

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,



As per the scream its possible that this was the onset of a violent assault, the following blows, and/or strangulation intended to silence JonBenet?


.

I reread that part and yes,it does sound that way,doesn't it? Just the part where it says the neighbor heard a loud child's scream and then silence..complete silence..

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

I know, but it helps to demonstrate, why if you assume the Ramsey facts are correct and the Toilet Rage theory holds some water, no pun intended, then why should there be these inconsistencies?


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True.I lean twds it not being toilet rage as well.One reason being the fibers found on her.Another is the scream seemed to be heard coming from the basement.As well as the underwear being replaced w. the word Wed. on it.
What if an assault on her was planned in advance,the perp being afraid she might talk about some abuse that was going on?That might explain JB being told she was going to get a special visit from Santa after xmas.As well as the timing;the perp may have wanted her dead b/f she left for the trip the next day.
PR saying they 'didn't mean' for this to happen doesn't necessarily mean it was an accident.She may have felt the perp had no choice if JB was going to talk,esp. if it could be proven she herself knew something was going on.

 

[Eagle1]

True.I lean twds it not being toilet rage as well.One reason being the fibers found on her.Another is the scream seemed to be heard coming from the basement.As well as the underwear being replaced w. the word Wed. on it.
What if an assault on her was planned in advance,the perp being afraid she might talk about some abuse that was going on?That might explain JB being told she was going to get a special visit from Santa after xmas.As well as the timing;the perp may have wanted her dead b/f she left for the trip the next day.
PR saying they 'didn't mean' for this to happen doesn't necessarily mean it was an accident.She may have felt the perp had no choice if JB was going to talk,esp. if it could be proven she herself knew something was going on.

I think her going to the school nurse on Mondays and her attempting a 911 call from the party on the 23rd proves she knew something that wasn't right was going on. Probably she was in pain, as the coroners said a previous injury, just about that old, was healing at the time of the fatal assault.

Melody Stanton's husband said he heard a sound after the scream which he hadn't heard, like metal hitting or scraping on concrete. I've always wondered if she was being beaten with a shovel or the metal baseball bat.
The spider web and dust on the windowwell grate proves it wasn't that.

 

[kelly london]

my point on the oversized panties was that patsy most likely would not have made the mistake of putting the wrong size panties on her daughter - those panties were HUGE compared to little JBR. its more likely a male in the home did it - that is all