Bobbi Kristina Brown found unresponsive in bathtub. #2

[CoolJ]

She was put on life support as part of a emergency medical rescue for the process of trying to save her life and to evaluate her medical status.

The issue now seems to be at what point to withdraw life support.

Exactly! And they did that because...... They had HOPE.
Hope only fades away when an individual person decides to let it go.
That time is not the same for everyone. Please don't condemn somebody for holding on to hope. It is their choice.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, hope and belief and "prayer" offer a healing energy?

 

[Hiandmighty]

I believe in healing energy, sure. But I also believe allowing a person to die a natural death when every medical test we know of shows "no hope" is an ethically, morally and spiritually correct thing to do.

We are all born for the end point of going back to where we came from when we die. To me, it is wrong to prevent a soul from competing its mission by pumping a body full of medicine and tubes and machines to breathe for it, when this is futile.

To me, its NOT horrible to say her time here on earth has ended and it is time for her soul to return to her "true north".

I think prolonging someone's death because people and machines can.... That is what is hope less.

 

[nrdsb4]

Exactly! And they did that because...... They had HOPE.
Hope only fades away when an individual person decides to let it go.
That time is not the same for everyone. Please don't condemn somebody for holding on to hope. It is their choice.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, hope and belief and "prayer" offer a healing energy?

This situation happens in an ICU somewhere every single day, but unless it involves a celebrity, we usually don't hear about it. The fact is that in the case of brain death, most hospitals will give the family a certain amount of time to understand and absorb the reality of their loved ones' injury. I think they do respect the family's desire to hold out hope-for awhile. If the patient is brain dead, and is declared so according to very specific and well established criteria, they will usually give the family a designated "reasonable" period during which the family can speak with doctors, clergy, counselors, other family members, etc. After this period has passed, they are legally within their rights to withdraw life support, and they do. It only occasionally happens that families challenge this legally, and when they do, they usually lose.

Now if she is NOT brain dead, hospitals do not impose this decision on the family. In the absence of legal directives, the next of kin has the final say. At that point, yes, the family has a right to keep hoping, at least to the degree that they have insurance or the means to pay for treatment. That happens every day as well.

We at WS do not know whether or not BK actually meets the criteria for brain death. If she does not, she will probably be moved to a rehab/nursing facility, potentially for many years, because it does not sound like her family is leaning towards discontinuing life support as long as they retain their capacity to hope.

 

[Hatfield]

Exactly! And they did that because...... They had HOPE.
Hope only fades away when an individual person decides to let it go.
That time is not the same for everyone. Please don't condemn somebody for holding on to hope. It is their choice.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, hope and belief and "prayer" offer a healing energy?

JMO
Ive had personal experience with a family member in a similar situation.

I just want to comment on the 2 bolded items.

You are correct about the 1st one, however, the 2nd one is where we ran into some issues. The doctors and hospitals had a direct impact on our famlies decision. So even if we wanted to elect to keep our family member hooked up to life support measures, there was outside pressures in the form of $$$$ and the hospital administrators stepping in to sway the decision 1 way or the other.

For a wealthy family who doesnt mind paying out of pocket, they could probably decide when the time is right for them. However, for normal folks, the decision is sometimes made for you when the hospital makes it clear that unless you fund out of pocket, you will be billed for all future days beyond a certain point if you want to stay on life support measures. The alternative provided is life support is removed with medicine to help the transition.

Another thing with that 2nd point that we also ran into was different family members wanting to vote 1 way and other family members wanting to vote another way. I am sure the Brown family is dealing with that right now. It is a sad time for them and it gets worse when there is disagreement amongst family members. Trying to be a mediator in this type of situation is almost impossible as I found out.

I have been praying for her and her family.

 

[passionflower]

true or not???
http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/02/10/bobbi-kristina-brown-shocking-history-with-seizures-revealed/

 

[Hiandmighty]

IDK about the seizure but twitter chatter is now saying a criminal investigation has been opened.

 

[Mistree]

I'm getting hung up on the thought, (rational or delusional on my part, ha ) that IF BK is in a medically induced coma, how can they get an accurate EEG? Isn't one of the criteria that the coma not be medically induced in order for a correct EEG?

 

[Hiandmighty]

JMO
Ive had personal experience with a family member in a similar situation.

I just want to comment on the 2 bolded items.

You are correct about the 1st one, however, the 2nd one is where we ran into some issues. The doctors and hospitals had a direct impact on our famlies decision. So even if we wanted to elect to keep our family member hooked up to life support measures, there was outside pressures in the form of $$$$ and the hospital administrators stepping in to sway the decision 1 way or the other.

For a wealthy family who doesnt mind paying out of pocket, they could probably decide when the time is right for them. However, for normal folks, the decision is sometimes made for you when the hospital makes it clear that unless you fund out of pocket, you will be billed for all future days beyond a certain point.

Another thing with that 2nd point that we also ran into was different family members wanting to vote 1 way and other family members wanting to vote another way. I am sure the Brown family is dealing with that right now. It is a sad time for them and it gets worse when there is disagreement amongst family members. Trying to be a mediator in this type of situation is almost impossible as I found out.

I have been praying for her and her family.

Im sorry you went through that and your experience is true to what happens in this situation.

 

[Hiandmighty]

I'm getting hung up on the thought, (rational or delusional on my part, ha ) that IF BK is in a medically induced coma, how can they get an accurate EEG? Isn't one of the criteria that the coma not be medically induced in order for a correct EEG?

I believe you are right: a person cannot be medically evaluated for brain death if they are in a medically induced coma. I also believe the same is true if they have any brain swelling.

 

[CoolJ]

This situation happens in an ICU somewhere every single day, but unless it involves a celebrity, we usually don't hear about it. The fact is that in the case of brain death, most hospitals will give the family a certain amount of time to understand and absorb the reality of their loved ones' injury. I think they do respect the family's desire to hold out hope-for awhile. If the patient is brain dead, and is declared so according to very specific and well established criteria, they will usually give the family a designated "reasonable" period during which the family can speak with doctors, clergy, counselors, other family members, etc. After this period has passed, they are legally within their rights to withdraw life support, and they do. It only occasionally happens that families challenge this legally, and when they do, they usually lose.

Now if she is NOT brain dead, hospitals do not impose this decision on the family. In the absence of legal directives, the next of kin has the final say. At that point, yes, the family has a right to keep hoping, at least to the degree that they have insurance or the means to pay for treatment. That happens every day as well.

We at WS do not know whether or not BK actually meets the criteria for brain death. If she does not, she will probably be moved to a rehab/nursing facility, potentially for many years, because it does not sound like her family is leaning towards discontinuing life support as long as they retain their capacity to hope.

Right, so by what we seem to know right now, BK is not brain dead.

 

[passionflower]

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/02/08...ice-investigation-nick-gordon-cover-up-blood/
was this posted?
I just read this

 

[CoolJ]

I am just saying we are hearing very different reports from many different sources and have from the very beginning. Some family members are reporting that her condition is improving. And then all of a sudden we have posters talking about it being lies. It's almost as if there are some who do not want her to make it.

I am not advocating that they keep her on life support indefinitely. Just that they do so, AND remain hopeful, until all avenues have been explored.

 

[Hiandmighty]

Right, so by what we seem to know right now, BK is not brain dead.

I think these are our choices:

1) she is brain dead

2) she is in a persistent vegetative state

3) she is only in a coma and has an issue that can be overcome

4) she has unknown medical condition (but suspected and clinically relevant) until her brain swelling goes down and additional medical tests can be performed and data interpretated

5) other

 

[Hatfield]

Im sorry you went through that and your experience is true to what happens in this situation.

Thank you. It was a tough time for us, as it would be for any family. I have to give kudos to our particular hospital. I personally felt they gave us ample time to come to the realization that things were not going to change for us.

I think what adds complexity to the issue is that we have all seen the very rare case on TV where someone miraculously "wakes up" and has a miracle recovery. We all feel like we will be the lucky ones to have that rare miracle happen for us. The best advice I gave myself at the time was just assessing the situation as best we could with our own common sense and listening very carefully to what the doctors were saying. That helped us realize the right thing to do.

 

[nrdsb4]

I'm getting hung up on the thought, (rational or delusional on my part, ha ) that IF BK is in a medically induced coma, how can they get an accurate EEG? Isn't one of the criteria that the coma not be medically induced in order for a correct EEG?

A flat EEG is not one of the criteria used to determine brain death.

However, as has been stated several times in this thread, particularly by one of our vetted experts, it is true that doctors cannot evaluate brain death in a person who is in a medically induced coma. Nor is it done in the early days when brain swelling could interfere with the results. I don't know what threshold of ICP (or other diagnostic measure) is used to determine when it's acceptable to evaluate the brain function.

 

[CoolJ]

I think these are our choices:

1) she is brain dead

2) she is in a persistent vegetative state

3) she is only in a coma and has an issue that can be overcome

4) she has unknown medical condition (but suspected and clinically relevant) until her brain swelling goes down and additional medical tests can be performed and data interpretated

5) other

I was responding to your comment "if she is not brain dead, hospitals do not impose this decision on the family"

It appears they have not done so yet, so therefore, by your description, she cannot be brain dead.

 

[nrdsb4]

I was responding to your comment "if she is not brain dead, hospitals do not impose this decision on the family,"

It appears they have not done so yet, so therefore, by your description, she cannot be brain dead.

BBM

That's false. If she is in a medically induced coma, she cannot be evaluated for brain death. We do not know if she is actually still in a medically induced coma, we do not know if she has yet been evaluated for brain death. Perhaps she has been declared brain dead but the hospital has not yet acted on their legal right to withdraw treatment in order to give the family their "reasonable period" to deal with the situation, etc. We don't know anything for sure.

And wasn't that MY comment you were responding to?

 

[passionflower]

A flat EEG is not one of the criteria used to determine brain death.

However, as has been stated several times in this thread, particularly by one of our vetted experts, it is true that doctors cannot evaluate brain death in a person who is in a medically induced coma. Nor is it done in the early days when brain swelling could interfere with the results. I don't know what threshold of ICP (or other diagnostic measure) is used to determine when it's acceptable to evaluate the brain function.

someone talked about the 'hot nose'..........I googled it and that is something I am sure specialists do. But we have no idea what Emory Hospital has done but they are suppose to be the best neuro in the area.

 

[passionflower]

If the family wants to keep her on life support, they will probably move her to a nursing facility that will look after her 24/7 or take her home with trained nurses.
We do not know how she is being nourished either. Many questions with no answers.......

 

[nrdsb4]

someone talked about the 'hot nose'..........I googled it and that is something I am sure specialists do. But we have no idea what Emory Hospital has done but they are suppose to be the best neuro in the area.

Hopefully, K_Z will weigh in. Because of HIPAA, we don't actually know what BK's condition is. "Sources" have said this or said that, but we don't know if they actually have access to her information, and we don't know if they have correctly interpreted any information that they HAVE been given.

Any number of tests could have been done at Emory. The "hot nose" test is not one of the tests which are used to establish a diagnosis of legal death due to brain death. Same with the EEG. It may have been done, probably has been done, but that is not one of the tests which are used to determine brain death because, as stated already by K_Z, presence of electrical activity could be obtained from a potato, which as we all know, does not have a living brain.

In one of the Jahi McMath threads, K_Z posted a link which explains how brain death is determined.

http://www.utmb.edu/policies_and_pr.../IHOP - 09.15.09 - Determination of Death.pdf