BREAKING NEWS: New DNA Analysis Suggests Family Should NOT Have Been Cleared

[Duchess518]

I think the best way to explain it is this. Hope this makes sense Duchess!
Imagine if you will partial pieces of DNA samples stacked on top of each other using clear sheets of glass. If you looked from above the stack, it might seem to be a complete profile. Yet when you take the sheets of glass apart you realize there is barely any DNA- on each sheet. Each DNA- partial is not a complete profile at all and very degraded. Meaning very old. But if you laid the sheets of partial DNA- from different people on top of each other, it could appear it was a complete profile. You remember those overhead projectors that teachers used with the clear sheets to work math problems out on? Imagine several stacked and put on the overhead.
Hope that makes some kind of sense? Haha! Now I'm confused myself!

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Thank you very much for explaining it!

 

[madeleine]

I use the following quote as a signature on another forum cause I don't want people to forget about how hypocrite, biased and unprofessional ML is and how she handled this case.

M. Lacy: "You know, no-one is really cleared of a homicide until there’s a conviction, in court beyond a reasonable doubt. And I don’t think you will get any prosecutor… unless they were present with the person at the time of the crime… to clear someone."

I know L. Wood is one of the most hated persons around here but as far as I am concerned ML is nr one in the top! ullhair: She and AH were JB's worst enemy and our nightmare.

 

[madeleine]

"Instead of being the DNA of one person, they have instead created a composite of someone who does not exist. "

BINGO!

Sending law enforcement on a goose chase. Maddening. I hate this case. I hate all the corrupt people who were involved in this cover-up.

 

[madeleine]

Sorry for the dumb question. Is what they did even legal? Are we playing now with DNA evidence and making experiments? These kind of people are dangerous.

 

[andreww]

I use the following quote as a signature on another forum cause I don't want people to forget about how hypocrite, biased and unprofessional ML is and how she handled this case.

M. Lacy: "You know, no-one is really cleared of a homicide until there’s a conviction, in court beyond a reasonable doubt. And I don’t think you will get any prosecutor… unless they were present with the person at the time of the crime… to clear someone."

I know L. Wood is one of the most hated persons around here but as far as I am concerned ML is nr one in the top! ullhair: She and AH were JB's worst enemy and our nightmare.

Lets not forget that in the DP special (I believe it was, may have been the other one), Lin Wood bragged that he went to Boulder and pressured Mary Lacy in to exonerating the Ramseys with the threat of legal action against the DA's office.

 

[Jolamom]

I am very confused. If the DNA was loaded by Bode into CODIS, would they have withheld the information about the possibility that the profile being submitted maybe a composite? Or are we strictly speaking of other of the DNA profiles in this case? Does CODIS accept such profiles? I do understand they are actually only a database and are not passing a legal judgement so the actual worth of the profile is determined in a courtroom but I had always thought there was a certain standard they were aiming for.

 

[kanzz]

Sorry for the dumb question. Is what they did even legal? Are we playing now with DNA evidence and making experiments? These kind of people are dangerous.

The DA seems to be legally immune from almost everything, with the exception of taking bribes and the like. There have been some in the past who would like to have seen Mary Lacy charged and perhaps disbarred for ethical violations, but now that she's out of the DA's office it's doubtful.

from JonBenet Ramsey: Prostitution Of Justice By Thomas C. “Doc” Miller:
Instead of acting as the chief prosecuting officer, Lacy became the lightening rod for acceptance of the intruder theory. She poisoned the investigation with a lapse in judgment meriting ethical charges. To entrust public safety to Lacy or to expect a forthright and professional performance of her duties to the public, is to ask for another helping of green cheese from the Man in the Moon.

 

[kanzz]

I am very confused. If the DNA was loaded by Bode into CODIS, would they have withheld the information about the possibility that the profile being submitted maybe a composite? Or are we strictly speaking of other of the DNA profiles in this case? Does CODIS accept such profiles? I do understand they are actually only a database and are not passing a legal judgement so the actual worth of the profile is determined in a courtroom but I had always thought there was a certain standard they were aiming for.

It IS confusing. 10 markers is the minimum standard for entry into the CODIS database, and 13 is customary.

Here is a reddit page with some info about the DNA from FF:
Excerpts from Chief James Kolar's book relating to the DNA found on JBR

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Here's a lovely blast from the past: A RECKLESS EXONERATION by Paul Campos, Rocky Mountain News
Wednesday, July 16, 2008
http://m.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TGKV8MKNU30CPSRN8

The whole editorial is fantastic but this is my favorite part:

Yet for reasons known only to herself (she has refused all requests for interviews) Lacy has concluded that, in her words, there "is no innocent explanation" for the presence of this DNA on the child's clothing, and that therefore the DNA belongs to the child's murderer.

It's difficult to describe the astounding leaps of logic required to come to that conclusion. On the other hand, simple deduction leads to a genuinely unavoidable conclusion: If the killer wrote the letter, the killer is someone who knew the precise amount of John Ramsey's bonus.

In other words, of the approximately 5,700,000,000 human beings alive on Earth on Christmas night 1996, Mary Lacy has constructed a theory that limits the possible suspects in JonBenet Ramsey's killing to those who knew the precise amount of John Ramsey's bonus, and that furthermore assumes the killer's DNA has already been identified.

Given those assumptions it's difficult to understand why an arrest hasn't been made. (None of this even touches on the fact that even if one assumes the killer wasn't a family member, nothing about the available evidence excludes the possibility of familial involvement in the crime.)

 

[Duchess518]

Another dumb question. I read an article (someone above posted) that there are 5 different TDNA profiles? 4 males and a female. I know they don't have enough markers and are degraded. I assume they came from the manufacturing process? So which DNA sample (from where on her body/clothes) is the composite sample? And what value will this DNA have if any? I've said before I don't think DNA will solve this case.

 

[Occams Razor]

Wow. I knew the DNA profiles were incomplete, but it sounds like they were also "forged" in a sense...which must be highly illegal. Did the DA and others involved in the collection of this evidence know that it belonged to multiple individuals and was presented as a single person's DNA? Or is this news to them too? Because if they knew it at the time or, worse, actually tampered with several DNA profiles by splicing them together, they should be held legally responsible. This goes waaaay beyond incompetence IMHO.

 

[Heymom]

Another dumb question. I read an article (someone above posted) that there are 5 different TDNA profiles? 4 males and a female. I know they don't have enough markers and are degraded. I assume they came from the manufacturing process? So which DNA sample (from where on her body/clothes) is the composite sample? And what value will this DNA have if any? I've said before I don't think DNA will solve this case.

IIRC, Chief Kolar says it was 5 males and 1 female, that made up the "small foreign faction." Would have had to be 6 people involved in the botched kidnapping of JBR. It's ridiculous. The DNA is not going to solve this case.

 

[singularity]

Wow. I knew the DNA profiles were incomplete, but it sounds like they were also "forged" in a sense...which must be highly illegal. Did the DA and others involved in the collection of this evidence know that it belonged to multiple individuals and was presented as a single person's DNA? Or is this news to them too? Because if they knew it at the time or, worse, actually tampered with several DNA profiles by splicing them together, they should be held legally responsible. This goes waaaay beyond incompetence IMHO.

Its almost time to get the FBI involved.


While we know its not an intruder, they ruled out suspects based on this DNA. They themselves already knew there wouldn't be a match even before getting samples from suspects.

It's an outrage.

Fresh eyes are needed and they have to start from scratch.

 

[BBB167893]

I use the following quote as a signature on another forum cause I don't want people to forget about how hypocrite, biased and unprofessional ML is and how she handled this case.

M. Lacy: "You know, no-one is really cleared of a homicide until there’s a conviction, in court beyond a reasonable doubt. And I don’t think you will get any prosecutor… unless they were present with the person at the time of the crime… to clear someone."

I know L. Wood is one of the most hated persons around here but as far as I am concerned ML is nr one in the top! ullhair: She and AH were JB's worst enemy and our nightmare.

VERY well said! I'd like to see both of them horsewhipped.

 

[BBB167893]

Another dumb question. I read an article (someone above posted) that there are 5 different TDNA profiles? 4 males and a female. I know they don't have enough markers and are degraded. I assume they came from the manufacturing process? So which DNA sample (from where on her body/clothes) is the composite sample? And what value will this DNA have if any? I've said before I don't think DNA will solve this case.

The underwear and longjohn samples are the composites.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Wow. I knew the DNA profiles were incomplete, but it sounds like they were also "forged" in a sense...which must be highly illegal. Did the DA and others involved in the collection of this evidence know that it belonged to multiple individuals and was presented as a single person's DNA? Or is this news to them too? Because if they knew it at the time or, worse, actually tampered with several DNA profiles by splicing them together, they should be held legally responsible. This goes waaaay beyond incompetence IMHO.

I don't think there was any "splicing" or "forging" on the DA's part but I agree this goes WAY beyond incompetence. According to the newscast and the Daily Camera article (both highly recommended), that information was included in the Bode lab report given to Mary Lacy BEFORE she exonerated the Ramseys, aka that's the document she claimed cleared them. It specifically stated it could not be considered a single-source profile and that DNA not connected to JB or the other profile was present so: at least three people. And THAT is brand new.

But it gets even better because there's the OTHER DNA mentioned by Kolar, the individual samples under her nails and on the garrote and wrist bindings that bring the total number of unexplained DNA profiles on JB to 6 (without counting composites, haha). Mary Lacy knew about them when she exonerated the Ramseys too. I don't have an ironclad source for that but it's clear that information came from Bode as well, where else could it have come from? So she had this information when she wrote that letter. How do I know?

The lab that performed the DNA testing, for example, told Lacy in March 2008 that it was "likely" the two samples found on JonBenet's long johns came from "more than two people" and "should not be considered a single-source profile," according to the documents obtained by the Camera and 9NEWS.But in exonerating the Ramseys with a three-page letter made public July 9, 2008, Lacy failed to disclose any of that, writing that "the previously identified profile from the crotch of the underwear worn by JonBenet at the time of the murder matched the DNA recovered from the long johns."
The word "match" actually never appears in the reports from Bode Technology, which conducted the testing in March through June of 2008.
Similarly, the Camera and 9NEWS have learned that investigators in Lacy's office suggested no additional testing was needed once they learned male DNA had been located on the long johns that she later labeled as a "match" to the DNA found in JonBenet's panties.
Correspondence from an investigator on Lacy's staff indicated that "my bosses" were "very excited" and "pleased" about the purported match, "and don't see the need for additional testing (unless you strongly recommend otherwise)."
(Daily Camera)

So, we know there was no additional testing done AFTER the last Bode lab results came back in June 2008. Garnett takes over the DA's office in November 2008. In February 2009, Kolar is on the special task force when he learns about the additional DNA from Andy Horita, who was the investigator under Lacy who handled the DNA. Kolar has only praise for Horita and says the investigator looked "decidedly dejected" as he explained the 6 DNA samples to the task force. Well, Andy Horita didn't pull those additional samples out of his butt in the few months between the last tests and the task force, okay? And are we to believe he purposefully withheld that info from Lacy? Lacy, at least, wants us to think so! Because when Fox News anchor Carol McKinley, who has followed this case from the beginning, asked Lacy about those additional samples after Kolar's book came out, Lacy claimed she didn't even know they existed.

Carol McKinley: She(Lacy) didn’t know about the DNA on the cord and on the garrote. She told me that that had not been developed when she came out and exonerated them.
It was Andy Horita, I think he was one of her attorneys in the office, he is a DNA specialist, he’s the one who presented that extra DNA at the task force.
I asked her about that, why didn’t you talk about this extra DNA, you know, that’s unexplained as well.
And she said, well we took the panties and we wanted to know about the DNA that was in the crotch and we wanted to know about the DNA on the waistband, but I didn’t know about the other DNA.
It was Andy, her assistant that brought the new DNA forward. I was a little surprised that she said she didn’t know about it.
Tricia Griffith: I’m wondering if she’s, in my opinion, conveniently forgotten, because to exonerate somebody when you don’t have everything tested, again, is beyond reprehensible.
Carol McKinley: I don’t know if they went back with this new touch DNA technique and looked at the murder weapon, I just don’t know…

Credit for this transcript and info goes to an excellent post by cynic on ffj available here: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...evisited-in-light-of-James-Kolar’s-book/page5

Cynic also includes an article that quotes Lacy talking about her DNA exoneration in December 2008 that does not mention the extra DNA.

Mary Lacy leaves us with few options, and none of them look good for her. 1, she read all the DNA results Bode sent her and somehow misunderstood them so fundamentally that she thought they constituted a clear-cut exoneration of the Ramseys. I have no faith in her intelligence and even I have trouble believing she's THAT stupid. 2, she didn't read anything and issued a completely uninformed exoneration based on, who knows, something someone told her. That is too incompetent for words. 3, she read and understood the DNA results and still decided to exonerate the Ramseys, knowing in her heart that there wasn't anything there and very carefully choosing her words and what info she would reveal to give the public the impression that the DNA evidence was in any way conclusive. Well. You can probably guess what I think about that.

But if that quote from McKinley about the DNA being developed after the exoneration is accurate (as in, she's reporting what ML said accurately, I'm not implying Bode actually sent those results after July) then that was obviously a lie on Lacy's part because we know she requested no further testing. But even if they did come late, is Lacy saying she has no responsibility to edit her previous statement when new info comes in? I'm just...I'm done. I couldn't find this woman's credibility if I was using an electron microscope, I swear!!

 

[PositiveLight]

Its almost time to get the FBI involved.


While we know its not an intruder, they ruled out suspects based on this DNA. They themselves already knew there wouldn't be a match even before getting samples from suspects.

It's an outrage.

Fresh eyes are needed and they have to start from scratch.

AMEN! Couldn't agree more!

 

[Userid]

Wow, this really, really crumbles the already weak IDI theory. Honestly, what else is there to illustrate that an intruder did it without this (the unidentified-male DNA)? I guess you can say the stun-gun marks (possible) and the boot mark, but other than that, there is zero to suggest an intruder did it, and these two facets are quite weak considering one can't prove those marks are from a stun-gun nor the boot mark from an intruder that very night.

 

[PositiveLight]

Wow, this really, really crumbles the already weak IDI theory. Honestly, what else is there to illustrate that an intruder did it without this (the unidentified-male DNA)? I guess you can say the stun-gun marks (possible) and the boot mark, but other than that, there is zero to suggest an intruder did it, and these two facets are quite weak considering one can't prove those marks are from a stun-gun nor the boot mark from an intruder that very night.

When it comes to the stun gun marks, imho JRs reaction to exhuming JonBenet's body to confirm or deny spoke volumes. He refused to allow her to be exhumed. Why?
If you wanted to solve your murdered daughters case, you would do what it took to help the case. This one decision by JR told me they were hiding something. I think in his mind if she was exhumed, a true expert would be called in and much more would be uncovered. I also wonder if they buried objects from the murder with her. Not allowing her to be exhumed was mind blowing. Only a guilty person in my opinion would refuse that.

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[Userid]

^ Agreed PL. When did they want to exhume her exactly?

On another note, I bet A&E feels really stupid right about now.