British student murdered in Perugia, 3 suspects

[songline]

Will this work the same way when a "foreigner" is tried in America? I personally think she comes across as racist and not really a good ambassador for America.

As for Guede yes he had sex with Meredith. He claims he was consensual and that he was in the bathroom when the murder happened and that he was too scared to go and help her.

I do not believe him...did he not recognize his buddies voices? hmmmm afraid of the group he hung out with? I am afraid not.

 

[songline]

CURIOUSE: did they ever establish who actually killed her?
Or did all 3 pretend not to know?

 

[LogicalMinds]

Thanks, It seems to not work in my head at all.
It seems like the 3 of them were in it together from all that I read. So maybe she did not do the deed? I mean the actual killing, and the Laws in Italy are not same as here, so to be part of such a team is the same punishment....IMHO whatever their legal system has decided is fine with me

??? Our laws charge people who conspire the same...

when a murder is committed during another felony (rape, robbery) all are charged, NOT just the person who pulled the trigger or held the knife

I have seen other people posting this and I don't get it...we have the very same laws here in the US

when a group robs a bank and one of them pulls the trigger and kills someone/s then the whole gang is charged with murder 1 during the commission of a felony

 

[Steely Dan]

I always found..telling the truth helped.

Had she not kept changing her story and blaming innocent people im sure she wouldnt been questioned so long.

I wonder how long KC was interrogated? :waitasec:

I personally think the Senator should be keeping her mouth shut. She talks about Anti Americanism well sorry but her remarks are going to encourage it.

The rest of the world doesn't vote in her district.

BTW, I love reading your posts. It seems that a lot of the time you state things I've never thought of but are common sense. I don't always agree with everything you say but I do a lot of the time. :blowkiss:

 

[Isabella]

Interrogation is different in other countries...you read British Mysteries and they bring in people to "assist the police"...well that means they are interrogating them before they arrest them....they might bring in tons of people and "interrogate them" for hours or days...they don't have to arrest them to hold them...this results in lots less "records"...here in the US they have to arrest you but then they might "drop the charges"...so in one sense their way is good, it leaves a lot less people with "records" of arrests

I really have no idea what you mean by your remarks. If a cop suspects you of a crime he will arrest you. At that point your taken to the station. You can then be held up to 96 hours and this is only if the police go to court and get extensions to hold the suspect. If its a person suspected of being involved in terrorism offences they can be held longer. If someone here is charged the cases can still be dropped before any court appearances. You said they dont have to arrest people to hold them - well in actual fact..if your not under arrest you can walk out of a police station at any time you want although it would probably go against you of course.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Some interesting facts about Guede..

he moved to Italy when he was 6 years old, and was informally adopted ? by a wealthy local man...he went to good schools, played basketball

however, he fell into drugs, theivery...the family has pretty much disowned him?? calls him a liar,

by her own admission Know "knew" Guede...

and there is a local who has identifed her, Rafael and Guede "together" and claims that Amanda pulled a knife on him when they had a dispute about parking spaces the very day before the murder

~~~~~~~~

Interesting facts about Amanda and Rafael...only knew each other 2 weeks..

I personally think they might be one of those cases where 2 people find each other and bring out the worst in each other??

Amanda, from all accounts, and her own diary, myspace etc...was into drinking,drugs...and had been doing a lot more than studying in Italy...her diary said she had unprotected sex with 7 guys in the short time she was there and she was (oddly) thinking she might have HIV and wondering who gave it to her?? (*her own thoughts...not fact)

Rafael had a similar dark side...pics of him as a vampire, bloody "costume" pics...into "Halloween"....violent comic book fan

Both into Halloween (Meredith was killed Nov 1..day after?)

From all indications Amanda and Meredith did not get along...Amanda too "wild",

she was about to lose her job at the pub for her wild behavior, sexual advances to customers, and irresponsible

Amanda had written odd "story" about gang rape and killing a woman

~~~~~~~~~

My personal thought is that somehow 2 people into sex, drugs, drinking, violent sex, group sex hooked up with a deviant drug dealer friend and thought that it would be "fun" to set up a disliked roommate ...I think they sexually assaulted Meredith and at some point realized that she was going to have them all charged with rape and somehow they killed her as a group

her windpipe was crushed and her throat slit..so it may have been more than one person who attacked her

Amanda is the one who had the key to the apartment and was the roommate and I think she brought the 2 guys there, Meredith was the subject of their unwanted sexual advances, and it doesn't matter who made the fatal cut or ? they were all in it together

 

[LogicalMinds]

I really have no idea what you mean by your remarks. If a cop suspects you of a crime he will arrest you. At that point your taken to the station. You can then be held up to 96 hours and this is only if the police go to court and get extensions to hold the suspect. If its a person suspected of being involved in terrorism offences they can be held longer. If someone here is charged the cases can still be dropped before any court appearances. You said they dont have to arrest people to hold them - well in actual fact..if your not under arrest you can walk out of a police station at any time you want although it would probably go against you of course.

From my understanding England and other countries can hold people before arresting them...and can question them...they can get a lawyer

here they have to arrest them

"helping the police with inquiries" is the phrase I am thinking of

this is the same in Ireland...where they can actually hold people for a week without formally arresting them

The same way the French held the photographers in Princess Dianna case...they held them for awhile before formally charging them

here people get arrested...and then they drop the charges a lot
which leaves them with an arrest record

at least this is what I have read and picked up from reading various stories and "cases" on the internet <grin>

 

[Isabella]

Some interesting facts about Guede..

he moved to Italy when he was 6 years old, and was informally adopted ? by a wealthy local man...he went to good schools, played basketball

however, he fell into drugs, theivery...the family has pretty much disowned him?? calls him a liar,

by her own admission Know "knew" Guede...

and there is a local who has identifed her, Rafael and Guede "together" and claims that Amanda pulled a knife on him when they had a dispute about parking spaces the very day before the murder

~~~~~~~~

Interesting facts about Amanda and Rafael...only knew each other 2 weeks..

I personally think they might be one of those cases where 2 people find each other and bring out the worst in each other??

Amanda, from all accounts, and her own diary, myspace etc...was into drinking,drugs...and had been doing a lot more than studying in Italy...her diary said she had unprotected sex with 7 guys in the short time she was there and she was (oddly) thinking she might have HIV and wondering who gave it to her?? (*her own thoughts...not fact)

Rafael had a similar dark side...pics of him as a vampire, bloody "costume" pics...into "Halloween"....violent comic book fan

Both into Halloween (Meredith was killed Nov 1..day after?)

From all indications Amanda and Meredith did not get along...Amanda too "wild",

she was about to lose her job at the pub for her wild behavior, sexual advances to customers, and irresponsible

Amanda had written odd "story" about gang rape and killing a woman

~~~~~~~~~

My personal thought is that somehow 2 people into sex, drugs, drinking, violent sex, group sex hooked up with a deviant drug dealer friend and thought that it would be "fun" to set up a disliked roommate ...I think they sexually assaulted Meredith and at some point realized that she was going to have them all charged with rape and somehow they killed her as a group

her windpipe was crushed and her throat slit..so it may have been more than one person who attacked her

Amanda is the one who had the key to the apartment and was the roommate and I think she brought the 2 guys there, Meredith was the subject of their unwanted sexual advances, and it doesn't matter who made the fatal cut or ? they were all in it together

You said..they killed her the day after halloween..well it was the day before Merediths murder that the other guy was attaced with the knives..which WOULD have been Halloween. Maybe he was just lucky.

 

[songline]

??? Our laws charge people who conspire the same...

when a murder is committed during another felony (rape, robbery) all are charged, NOT just the person who pulled the trigger or held the knife

I have seen other people posting this and I don't get it...we have the very same laws here in the US

when a group robs a bank and one of them pulls the trigger and kills someone/s then the whole gang is charged with murder 1 during the commission of a felony

My understanding is that in the USA murder gets a different punishment then the accessory to murder.
both are guilty, and both do serve time.
But this is Italy and whatever their law is, it IS! So if they all get same amount of time, so be it.

 

[Isabella]

From my understanding England and other countries can hold people before arresting them...and can question them...they can get a lawyer

here they have to arrest them

"helping the police with inquiries" is the phrase I am thinking of

this is the same in Ireland...where they can actually hold people for a week without formally arresting them

The same way the French held the photographers in Princess Dianna case...they held them for awhile before formally charging them

here people get arrested...and then they drop the charges a lot
which leaves them with an arrest record

at least this is what I have read and picked up from reading various stories and "cases" on the internet <grin>

When people are helping the police with there inquiries..that generally means there at the police station being questioned.

They cant hold someone for a week here without arresting them..and if your at the station you can go at any time but then the cops could say your not cooperating with them and arrest you anyhow. I think..the police are allowed to have you at the police station around 36 hours. They then have to go to the local court and ask for this to be extended for a further amount of hours if necessary. At the end they have no choice but to charge the person or let them go. Generally at the end of questioning..you are bailed to return to the police station and will then be told what your being charged with or you can get charged there and then. On charging you it depends what your crime is on whether you will get bail or not and of course if you do under what conditions.

 

[LogicalMinds]

My understanding is that in the USA murder gets a different punishment then the accessory to murder.
both are guilty, and both do serve time.
But this is Italy and whatever their law is, it IS! So if they all get same amount of time, so be it.

No....please do some research here thanks

when there is another felony involved...ALL are charged with murder 1

so if there is rape, robbery, it is murder charges for all of them

there are other murders...a crime of passion (anger, jealousy, twisted love) that do not involve another felony....

and in a case like that the "accessory" is usually someone who helps the murderer....

example....jealous hubby kills his wife...his buddy helps him get rid of the body or drives him away...accessory to murder


example of murder during a felony....3 robbers hold up a bank, one pulls the trigger and kills a guard...all are charged with murder, in commission of a felony

this was a case of rape (felony) and assault....group rape....and all are charged with murder and the same thing would happen here in the usa

 

[LogicalMinds]

When people are helping the police with there inquiries..that generally means there at the police station being questioned.

They cant hold someone for a week here without arresting them..and if your at the station you can go at any time but then the cops could say your not cooperating with them and arrest you anyhow. I think..the police are allowed to have you at the police station around 36 hours. They then have to go to the local court and ask for this to be extended for a further amount of hours if necessary. At the end they have no choice but to charge the person or let them go. Generally at the end of questioning..you are bailed to return to the police station and will then be told what your being charged with or you can get charged there and then. On charging you it depends what your crime is on whether you will get bail or not and of course if you do under what conditions.

And that is the difference...36 hours...here they will charge them so as to follow Miranda ..otherwise anything they say won't count

so a lot of people get arrested here (and charges dropped) just to be careful

 

[Isabella]

No....please do some research here thanks

when there is another felony involved...ALL are charged with murder 1

so if there is rape, robbery, it is murder charges for all of them

there are other murders...a crime of passion (anger, jealousy, twisted love) that do not involve another felony....

and in a case like that the "accessory" is usually someone who helps the murderer....

example....jealous hubby kills his wife...his buddy helps him get rid of the body or drives him away...accessory to murder


example of murder during a felony....3 robbers hold up a bank, one pulls the trigger and kills a guard...all are charged with murder, in commission of a felony

this was a case of rape (felony) and assault....group rape....and all are charged with murder and the same thing would happen here in the usa

Also..how about if Amanda let these guys in knowing what was going to happen that night?

 

[LogicalMinds]

From wikipedia

United States
In the United States, felony murder is generally first degree murder, and is often a capital offense. When the government seeks to impose the death penalty on someone convicted of felony murder, the Eighth Amendment has been interpreted so as to impose additional limitations on the state power. The death penalty may not be imposed if the defendant is merely a minor participant and did not actually kill or intend to kill. However, the death penalty may be imposed if the defendant is a major participant in the underlying felony and "exhibits extreme indifference to human life".

There is no death penalty in Italy (Europe) so that is a moot point

Anyone participating in a rape that ends in murder would be charged with murder 1 charges here in the US

They also stole Meredith's cell phone and a small amount of money from her purse...so that would make the case even stronger

ironically it appears that England and Wales and Northern Ireland no longer have the "muder by felony" law although this actually originated in British common law (even tho it originated there)

The American Law Institute's Model Penal Code lists robbery, rape or forcible deviant sexual intercourse, arson, burglary, and felonious escape. Federal law specifies additional crimes, including terrorism, kidnapping, and carjacking

The ONLY provision in US is that capital (death penalty) is not given to the ones who did not commit the actual murder...however they can/do get life in Prison

the exception is....Texas...where the felony murder charge is even more broad and can include those who "aid and abet"

Apparently Italy does have this sort of law..thus all 3 are charged

there is no death penalty..and they did not even get the maximum life sentence allowed

not to mention that Italy apparently has a pretty liberal system of rewarding good behavior...and IF they pay the "civil penalties" (part of the case in Italy apparently) they can also knock some time off their sentences

My guess...she is better off there than if this happened in Texas...LOL

probably the food is better in an Italian prison and she has plenty of time to learn languages....I don't feel one bit sorry for Amanda, I think justice was served and I am going to be highly pizzed if our state dept wastes one minute of time or tax payer money on this

 

[LogicalMinds]

Also..how about if Amanda let these guys in knowing what was going to happen that night?

Well...we know she let them in....she had the key
the "break in" was a joke, very poorly planned

to make it premeditated, they only had to think of it a split second before (at least in US)

My personal thought is that they came into the apartment, drunk, high, looking for "fun"...these were some pretty sick people

Meredith was sick of the parade of strange guys that Amanda brought home..she had said she was afraid of some of them

Amanda, Raffelle and Guede...maybe Meredith was not happy and this escalated...I think that Amanda disliked her and wanted to humilate her...
sort of like "stop being a wet blanket...let's party"..and they forced her with Guede

(there is indication that she was forced to her knees..also hand mark bruises on her jaw...so this indicates that she was forced to have sex/oral sex with Guede..his semen/dna proves this)

I think that at some point it got totally out of hand...Merdith would of course tell and press charges...something these crazed jerks didn't think of at first and when they did they killed her in a sort of group frenzy...
windpipe...knife....

rape is a felony....they all particpated and they all were charged, rightfully so

The stuff that Amanda did in the beginning is just ridiculous...trying to pin this on Patrick....saying she was there and heard screams and held her fingers in her ears

also the way she came home and found the house "broken into" but putzed around taking a shower and then called police??

the cell phones turned off together at 8:40 pm?? so many things show this was planned (perhaps at the last minute)....

I think Amanda really thought she could pin it on Patrick (who she was mad at cause she was about to lose her job...also he was thinking of hiring Meredith, making her more angry at Meredith)

I really have to laugh at Americans who are upset at this....Texas and./or Florida might result in a needle in her arm, we have no problem with executing women here

 

[missyjane77]

you know, at first, i was wondering why she didn't dress nicer, but now i'm thinking that if she did, she would have been given hell for that too, for trying to be someone she isn't.

I agree 100%. She was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. If she was crying hysterically, she'd be criticized. She did cartwheels, she's criticized. If she wore her hair in a ponytail, she would have been criticized. It's ridiculous how quick people are to judge another based soley on appearances.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I agree 100%. She was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. If she was crying hysterically, she'd be criticized. She did cartwheels, she's criticized. If she wore her hair in a ponytail, she would have been criticized. It's ridiculous how quick people are to judge another based soley on appearances.

Well that was not what got her convicted...dna, physical evidence,
the fake break in, motive and opportunity, and her lying tales blaming an innocent man and even claiming to have been there to hear Meredith screaming

explain all of that ?? thanks

 

[Isabella]

I agree 100%. She was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. If she was crying hysterically, she'd be criticized. She did cartwheels, she's criticized. If she wore her hair in a ponytail, she would have been criticized. It's ridiculous how quick people are to judge another based soley on appearances.

The only time she ever seemed to show any emotion whatsoever was on being convicted and apparently when they was describing what was done to the victim. And by victim i mean Meredith and not Amanda.

 

[missyjane77]

Well that was not what got her convicted...dna, physical evidence,
the fake break in, motive and opportunity, and her lying tales blaming an innocent man and even claiming to have been there to hear Meredith screaming

explain all of that ?? thanks

I wasn't commenting on her guilt or innocence. That was never mentioned in my post. Thanks.

 

[Nova]

I always found..telling the truth helped.

Had she not kept changing her story and blaming innocent people im sure she wouldnt been questioned so long.

Do we know when during the interrogation process she began "changing her story"?

The 48 Hours broadcast in the States last night (strongly pro-defense) made it seem as if AK changed her account and fingered her boss only after considerable pressure under questioning.

I am in no way defending the blaming of innocent people, but it isn't an uncommon response to vigorous interrogation. And per recent studies, "coerced confessions" are more likely among the young, particularly those without experience dealing with LE.

***

On another note, I believe in one of your posts explaining the Italian judiciary (and thank you very much for those), you said an Italian prosecutor was neither "elected nor appointed". What selection method does that leave?

(I apologize in advance if I am confusing somebody else's words for yours, but I'm curious because I am imagining prosecutors chosen by drawing straws. As I tried to make clear above, I haven't heard a charge against on the Italian judiciary that couldn't also be leveled in the States. Even the sequestering of jurors isn't automatic here, but depends, within guidelines, on the discretion of the presiding judge. It seems to me that sequestration is less common here than it once was.)