Burke Files 150 Million Dollar Lawsuit Against Werner Sptiz???

[Razz]

I wonder if the "interview " of the friend of John's who got upset when John called his pilot that the CBS documentary spent so much time on but didn't produce a videotaped interview of, knew directly from John that they, PR and JR were very concerned about Burke and his behavoir toward JBR?? I think that may be what they are holding back?!

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

 

[johnjay]

I wonder if the "interview " of the friend of John's who got upset when John called his pilot that the CBS documentary spent so much time on but didn't produce a videotaped interview of, knew directly from John that they, PR and JR were very concerned about Burke and his behavoir toward JBR?? I think that may be what they are holding back?!

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

Yes, we didn't get any direct information from that interview but they made sure that we knew it occurred. I wonder how much that interview played into their decision to say Burke did it.

 

[Razz]

Yes, we didn't get any direct information from that interview but they made sure that we knew it occurred. I wonder how much that interview played into their decision to say Burke did it.

I truly think he KNEW directly from John that there was a problem with Burke. The Grand Jury would have heard that evidence. JR and PR were guilty in that they didn't keep the 2 separated and/or they weren't being aggressive enough with proper treatment for Burke!

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

 

[johnjay]

Me too. I doubt it would have made it past local papers and BR would have received treatment quietly.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Somehow I think beauty queen 6 year old strangled in her home on Christmas day was always going to be a big story.

And I don't think they could have kept the details quiet. It does seem like this crime fell between the cracks of Colorado law - they didn't know how to handle this sort of thing. What do they say, "a girl was brutally murdered but because the murderer was a few weeks shy of his 10th birthday no criminal action is applicable? Move along, nothing more to be seen here."

And given the prior history, as indicated by the Grand Jury indictments, John and Patsy could have still been held responsible for reckless endangerment. This was a very big story from the moment it happened.

 

[Tortoise]

That's your opinion but many of us feel it is remarkably close to the same shape, and as close as one would reasonable expect given all the variables involved. Trying hit a golf ball and then put down another one and hit it the exact same way and you'll see what I'm getting at. Or split a piece of wood and then split another one exactly the same way. Or drop a glass on the floor and then drop another one and see if the pieces are exactly the same. A few experiments like that should help clear this up for you.



No no, I'm saying it seems perfectly reasonable to expect a blow from the side with that flashlight to cause a fracture from front to back. That's because the tip of the flashlight presented itself as an edge as it first struck the head, and that edge is perpendicular to the direction of motion of the flashlight. Of course the grain of the skull, as well as weaker points in it, would also contribute to exactly how the fracture occurred.

But I see no reason to think that the blow had to come from behind or in front, and you haven't provided us with one.

You're correct that it's my opinion that the maglite was not the implement used to break JonBenet's skull, and not without foundation. As I've already said to SuperDave, your analogy of hitting things and breaking things in exactly the same way doesn't prove your point. The point is that Spitz recruited a young lad to hit a skull with the maglite and it produced the exact shape he was after reproducing. So was this the 900th hit on the 900th skull that day, or did it happen first time? He managed to produce what he thought was the shape of the break in the skull (I'm not talking about minute variations here). And it matched his diagrams of the fracture, that have been available for viewing online for years. The problem is that his diagrams and test results don't match the autopsy photos. So the shape he was after achieving with the tests was never going to be a match to the real thing. The maglite cannot produce the same wound shape, it is square topped, it doesn't curve down at the edges like an upside down smile.

I see you are using the term "us", "many of us" etc. in your post. It is true that this forum is currently packed to the gills with people who believe BDI, with the flashlight. I wouldn't say though that it is correct to assume that everyone agrees with this theory. I'm not yet in a position to say who I believe did what, I still have many more angles to look at. But having watched the CBS special I was far from impressed with the work of Spitz, and to an extent Lee (concerning the sexual assault). Out of the hundreds of people browsing and reading the JB forums daily, I think it is fair to say that many probably don't agree with the CBS theory, and I wouldn't mind betting that a lot of people who don't agree also aren't vocal and don't post, because it can get a bit like a lions' pit in here with posters who are quite possessive of this theory, think experts used on CBS must have been objective and right - when it is just as likely that the director recruited experts who had already voiced agreement with this theory, and are quite certain that Burke is evil personified and the parents can ONLY have been acting to protect him, and not themselves of course.

Lastly, I could just as easily say to you that you haven't provided a reason for me to think the blow had to come from the side. Spitz's demo failed to produce the correct results, and never could with what he set out to achieve. I've provided what I think is a lot of reasons why I think it was from behind (extensive linear brain bruising, contrecoup and direction of force causing the 8 inch fracture from back to front). I've also said why it wasn't the maglite, and you haven't convinced me otherwise. You don't need to do that of course because I have seen the autopsy pictures and they show a shape that could not be caused by a flat topped object. I've also read extensively on the subject and seen lots of test results with different shaped objects. That is how I've reached my conclusions, but I don't want or expect your agreement or to convince you or anyone, I only care about posting objective observations. Unfortunately most of the work I've read about was done by people who are no longer contributing here, but their work is still available to view in the older threads.

 

[johnjay]

You're correct that it's my opinion that the maglite was not the implement used to break JonBenet's skull, and not without foundation. As I've already said to SuperDave, your analogy of hitting things and breaking things in exactly the same way doesn't prove your point. The point is that Spitz recruited a young lad to hit a skull with the maglite and it produced the exact shape he was after reproducing. So was this the 900th hit on the 900th skull that day, or did it happen first time?

While I think that's an interesting question, it's one I wonder about myself, I'm confident that he could have bashed 10,000 skulls with that Maglite from behind or in front and not produced as convincing an injury as they did. I found it to be a most convincing demonstration. And the force used - oh my ...

He managed to produce what he thought was the shape of the break in the skull (I'm not talking about minute variations here). And it matched his diagrams of the fracture, that have been available for viewing online for years. The problem is that his diagrams and test results don't match the autopsy photos. So the shape he was after achieving with the tests was never going to be a match to the real thing. The maglite cannot produce the same wound shape, it is square topped, it doesn't curve down at the edges like an upside down smile.

And do you believe that the weapon had to have all of the same twists and curves that are seen in the long skull fracture for that twisty patter to have occurred?

I see you are using the term "us", "many of us" etc. in your post. It is true that this forum is currently packed to the gills with people who believe BDI, with the flashlight. I wouldn't say though that it is correct to assume that everyone agrees with this theory. I'm not yet in a position to say who I believe did what, I still have many more angles to look at. But having watched the CBS special I was far from impressed with the work of Spitz, and to an extent Lee (concerning the sexual assault). Out of the hundreds of people browsing and reading the JB forums daily, I think it is fair to say that many probably don't agree with the CBS theory, and I wouldn't mind betting that a lot of people who don't agree also aren't vocal and don't post, because it can get a bit like a lions' pit in here with posters who are quite possessive of this theory, think experts used on CBS must have been objective and right - when it is just as likely that the director recruited experts who had already voiced agreement with this theory, and are quite certain that Burke is evil personified and the parents can ONLY have been acting to protect him, and not themselves of course.

I didn't get the impression from the CBS show that anyone there thought of Burke as "evil personified." You'll do better finding that notion from some of us here. I find the way he talked about his murdered sister on Dr. Phil to be evil - not in the "I'm going to consciously do bad" sense but in the "he knows not what he did (or said on the show)" sense.

Lastly, I could just as easily say to you that you haven't provided a reason for me to think the blow had to come from the side. Spitz's demo failed to produce the correct results, and never could with what he set out to achieve. I've provided what I think is a lot of reasons why I think it was from behind (extensive linear brain bruising, contrecoup and direction of force causing the 8 inch fracture from back to front).

I thought I explained rather clearly how hitting someone from the side with the Maglite causes then to receive a blow from an edge, i.e. an ax edge like object that is perpendicular to the direction of the blow. It is as if they hit a person with an ax from the front or behind - of course the ax wouldn't have been as likely to leave that rectangular shaped hole.

 

[PositiveLight]

Tort I am open to all theories. But not an intruder theory.
I doubt very seriously the injury would perfectly fit an object in an egg shelled skull. I can see a golf club or a maglight. Now if it was a golf club I would think it would come from the front or back depending on which wedge. The maglight imho came from the side. Regardless of the object though Imho it was Burke that dealt the blow and the strangulation.
We all have opinions and they can be talked about and discussed.
I do know though that the intruder theory isn't allowed to be discussed anymore due to lack of evidence for it. But I always keep in mind that the investigators had more hands on time with all the evidence, including stuff we aren't privy to.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[redheadedgal]

and I've also read in older threads here (too many now to remember which ones unfortunately) about a contrecoup brain injury, caused by her brain being shunted forwards and backwards. I'd be very surprised with my admittedly limited layman's knowledge and expectations, if the direction of the blow was sideways on, as demonstrated.

Coup-Contrecoup Injury: damage to the brain on both sides: the side that received the initial impact (coup) or blow and the side opposite the initial impact (countrecoup). This occurs when the force of the initial blow is great enough to cause brain damage at the site of initial impact between the skull and brain and is also great enough to cause the brain to move in the opposite direction and hit the opposite side of the skull, causing damage at that site.
http://www.northeastern.edu/nutraumaticbraininjury/what-is-tbi/types-of-damage/

SuperDave (09-12-2016): Someone here mentioned that there was a contrecoup injury on the left side of JB's brain, as though her head struck, and the brain bounced back against the other side.

 

[singularity]

You're correct that it's my opinion that the maglite was not the implement used to break JonBenet's skull, and not without foundation. As I've already said to SuperDave, your analogy of hitting things and breaking things in exactly the same way doesn't prove your point. The point is that Spitz recruited a young lad to hit a skull with the maglite and it produced the exact shape he was after reproducing. So was this the 900th hit on the 900th skull that day, or did it happen first time? He managed to produce what he thought was the shape of the break in the skull (I'm not talking about minute variations here). And it matched his diagrams of the fracture, that have been available for viewing online for years. The problem is that his diagrams and test results don't match the autopsy photos. So the shape he was after achieving with the tests was never going to be a match to the real thing. The maglite cannot produce the same wound shape, it is square topped, it doesn't curve down at the edges like an upside down smile.

I see you are using the term "us", "many of us" etc. in your post. It is true that this forum is currently packed to the gills with people who believe BDI, with the flashlight. I wouldn't say though that it is correct to assume that everyone agrees with this theory. I'm not yet in a position to say who I believe did what, I still have many more angles to look at. But having watched the CBS special I was far from impressed with the work of Spitz, and to an extent Lee (concerning the sexual assault). Out of the hundreds of people browsing and reading the JB forums daily, I think it is fair to say that many probably don't agree with the CBS theory, and I wouldn't mind betting that a lot of people who don't agree also aren't vocal and don't post, because it can get a bit like a lions' pit in here with posters who are quite possessive of this theory, think experts used on CBS must have been objective and right - when it is just as likely that the director recruited experts who had already voiced agreement with this theory, and are quite certain that Burke is evil personified and the parents can ONLY have been acting to protect him, and not themselves of course.

Lastly, I could just as easily say to you that you haven't provided a reason for me to think the blow had to come from the side. Spitz's demo failed to produce the correct results, and never could with what he set out to achieve. I've provided what I think is a lot of reasons why I think it was from behind (extensive linear brain bruising, contrecoup and direction of force causing the 8 inch fracture from back to front). I've also said why it wasn't the maglite, and you haven't convinced me otherwise. You don't need to do that of course because I have seen the autopsy pictures and they show a shape that could not be caused by a flat topped object. I've also read extensively on the subject and seen lots of test results with different shaped objects. That is how I've reached my conclusions, but I don't want or expect your agreement or to convince you or anyone, I only care about posting objective observations. Unfortunately most of the work I've read about was done by people who are no longer contributing here, but their work is still available to view in the older threads.

^Best post on WS since the CBS doc aired.

You're right.....there are people waiting for the hoopla to die down and this section go back to its normal activity to discuss it. CBS basically ignored most of the evidence when reaching its conclusion and not everyone is falling in line with it. I was expecting more evidence to be shown, not less.

I've seen sleuths here over the years make a much better case for BDI than CBS did.

CBS was a bizarre doppleganger of IDI over the years.....simply ignore everything that doesn't fit in order to make it sound remotely plausible to the masses.

 

[johnjay]

^Best post on WS since the CBS doc aired.

You're right.....there are people waiting for the hoopla to die down and this section go back to its normal activity to discuss it. CBS basically ignored most of the evidence when reaching its conclusion and not everyone is falling in line with it. I was expecting more evidence to be shown, not less.

I've seen sleuths here over the years make a much better case for BDI than CBS did.

CBS was a bizarre doppleganger of IDI over the years.....simply ignore everything that doesn't fit in order to make it sound remotely plausible to the masses.

CBS didn't ignore the theory that an intruder climbed through the basement window - no no - they just showed how obviously wrong that theory is.

CBS didn't ignore the theory that a stun gun was used and left marks on JonBenet - no no - they just showed how obviously wrong that theory is.

CBS did show how a boy could easily inflict similar damage to the skull fracture that JonBenet suffered from.

And they did a fine job of explaining in detail how staged the ransom note was - seemingly by 30+ year old woman that was not part of a foreign faction or involved in a kidnapping. Hmmmm. Who could that be?

Yes, they pretty much ignored the strangulation device (which many refer to as a garrote), perhaps that was a step too far for the network to go - maybe it was in the 2 hours that was cut. Disappointing, but understandable. I certainly would have liked to see how they thought the device was used.

As for the sexual abuse, I don't know what to make of that or know who is right about it. Maybe someday we'll get the inside scoop on why they decided to say there was none.

 

[Ambitioned]

Tort I am open to all theories. But not an intruder theory.
I doubt very seriously the injury would perfectly fit an object in an egg shelled skull. I can see a golf club or a maglight. Now if it was a golf club I would think it would come from the front or back depending on which wedge. The maglight imho came from the side. Regardless of the object though Imho it was Burke that dealt the blow and the strangulation.
We all have opinions and they can be talked about and discussed.
I do know though that the intruder theory isn't allowed to be discussed anymore due to lack of evidence for it. But I always keep in mind that the investigators had more hands on time with all the evidence, including stuff we aren't privy to.

Problem is, is the golf club heavy enough to do that kind of damage? I always thought Burke grabbed her by the collar (creating that mark on her neck) and whacked her hard with the Maglite (compact and heavy). I'm open to theories as well but I can't see the golf club right now. I do see the Maglite, especially since it was wiped down. I was in Batteries and Bulbs the other day getting a flashlight for power loss due to the hurricane and tested a few. Dang they are heavy!!

 

[UKGuy]

CBS didn't ignore the theory that an intruder climbed through the basement window - no no - they just showed how obviously wrong that theory is.

CBS didn't ignore the theory that a stun gun was used and left marks on JonBenet - no no - they just showed how obviously wrong that theory is.

CBS did show how a boy could easily inflict similar damage to the skull fracture that JonBenet suffered from.

And they did a fine job of explaining in detail how staged the ransom note was - seemingly by 30+ year old woman that was not part of a foreign faction or involved in a kidnapping. Hmmmm. Who could that be?

Yes, they pretty much ignored the strangulation device (which many refer to as a garrote), perhaps that was a step too far for the network to go - maybe it was in the 2 hours that was cut. Disappointing, but understandable. I certainly would have liked to see how they thought the device was used.

As for the sexual abuse', I don't know what to make of that or know who is right about it. Maybe someday we'll get the inside scoop on why they decided to say there was none.

johnjay,
BBM: Its pretty simple there may have been none. The CBS theory rests on an impulsive head whack, and that the sexual element represents staging, which might be correct?

That JonBenet may have been sexually assaulted prior to Christmas night it does not follow that the same person then killed her?

.

 

[PositiveLight]

Problem is, is the golf club heavy enough to do that kind of damage? I always thought Burke grabbed her by the collar (creating that mark on her neck) and whacked her hard with the Maglite (compact and heavy). I'm open to theories as well but I can't see the golf club right now. I do see the Maglite, especially since it was wiped down. I was in Batteries and Bulbs the other day getting a flashlight for power loss due to the hurricane and tested a few. Dang they are heavy!!

i wonder if we can compare the golf clubs in the golf bags of both JR and BR? also is it noted anywhere that some are missing? I'm sure there's someway to do a little bit of comparisons. Anyone have the pics of BR and JR golf club bags? At this time, I feel it was the maglight. But I am open to other possibilities. They are VERY heavy flashlights. I have one beside me atm. Depending of the golf clubs, some are heavier than others. So it would probably depend on the brand and club?

 

[learnin]

Exhibit A is AH signed statement. It's as dangerous as ML's stupid exoneration. But it will help BR. Again. Spitz can't prove his theory. He can't prove the mag is the m.weapon. Cant place it in BRs hands even if it is. Cant prove BR is mentally unfit OR SOMETHING, his own words. Then there is his history as an expert. We all know about that.

Strange. Even though a Grand Jury heard, and saw, Lou Smits' power point presentation, supposedly, showing that an intruder did this, they voted to indict the parents on placing JBR in a dangerous situation and, then, covering for the perpetrator. So, obviously, there is enough circumstantial evidence (things that we haven't even read about as of yet) to convince our peers that they're guilty. Wood is choosing his language very carefully, here, so that he can try to win another one, but he is risking a great deal here because CBS lawyers have a little more sense than to just open their clients up to litigation.

 

[johnjay]

Problem is, is the golf club heavy enough to do that kind of damage?

Golf clubs are certainly capable of cracking a childs skull. It's not just about the mass of the club but also about how fast it's moving (and velocity is a lot more important). Golf clubs have long flexible shafts so that they can be made to move really fast. But would you swing a club like that in the house in a way to get it really moving? Unlikely. A baseball bat would be a better choice for an in the house weapon. Although as we've seen, the Maglite works really well too.

[video=youtube;7KglEepA7gQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KglEepA7gQ[/video]

I always thought Burke grabbed her by the collar (creating that mark on her neck) and whacked her hard with the Maglite (compact and heavy). I'm open to theories as well but I can't see the golf club right now. I do see the Maglite, especially since it was wiped down. I was in Batteries and Bulbs the other day getting a flashlight for power loss due to the hurricane and tested a few. Dang they are heavy!!

 

[OliviaG1996]

Strange. Even though a Grand Jury heard, and saw, Lou Smits' power point presentation, supposedly, showing that an intruder did this, they voted to indict the parents on placing JBR in a dangerous situation and, then, covering for the perpetrator. So, obviously, there is enough circumstantial evidence (things that we haven't even read about as of yet) to convince our peers that they're guilty. Wood is choosing his language very carefully, here, so that he can try to win another one, but he is risking a great deal here because CBS lawyers have a little more sense than to just open their clients up to litigation.

You're right, learnin. In addition, I'm not famliar with law, but I don't think Spitz has to "prove" anything. He's the one being sued, not the other way around. It's BR who has to prove he did not kill JBR and it's BR who has to prove Dr. Spitz made his comments maliciously, both of which he cannot do. Same goes for BR and LW's claims against CBS. These lawsuits are fruitless, IMO.

 

[johnjay]

Golf clubs are certainly capable of cracking a childs skull. It's not just about the mass of the club but also about how fast it's moving (and velocity is a lot more important). Golf clubs have long flexible shafts so that they can be made to move really fast. But would you swing a club like that in the house in a way to get it really moving? Unlikely. A baseball bat would be a better choice for an in the house weapon. Although as we've seen, the Maglite works really well too.

For those who prefer to use an iron:

[video=youtube;_DPF8iZI6Tg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DPF8iZI6Tg[/video]

 

[PositiveLight]

ACR - http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-golf-clubs.htm

0275
8 LOU SMIT: Okay. This here is a photograph.
9 (INAUDIBLE) you golf clubs, okay? Now, you're a
10 golfer, I assume?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: I can claim that.
12 LOU SMIT: Now this is a -- just take a
13 look at this. This is actually a photograph of
14 golf clubs. It's located down near the wine cellar
15 in the basement. And I just wanted you to take a
16 look and see if you see anything in regards to
17 that that seems out of place, or maybe if any
18 clothes are missing there?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything that
20 looks odd. Looks like there's two woods in the
21 bag. I think I have three and I can't really tell
22 if there's three or not. There's a putter, eight
23 irons, seven or eight. (INAUDIBLE) I don't see,
24 no.
25 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photograph


14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's obviously been
15 moved around some. This bag has been moved, looks
16 like.
17 MIKE KANE: Which one are you referring to?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: A purple bag with my name on
19 it.
20 MIKE KANE: From where to where?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it's been
22 moved down off the pile, because it's usually
23 here. This laundry basket doesn't show in here.
24 LOU SMIT: So it looks like something has
25 been moved between the time this picture was taken

0277
1 and this picture was taken?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like this cane
3 has been moved. It's hard to tell from the
4 picture.

BBM
Ok first JR says considers himself a golfer. He notes what golf clubs are in the picture (This should help us a little in identifying them later...)

Next ....this is the first I've heard of a cane??? What kind of cane are we talking about? Anyone know?

 

[PositiveLight]

20 MIKE KANE: Do you remember the day 21 after this happened, being on the phone talking 22 to someone about getting your golf clubs?23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Absolutely not.

This is from ACR - http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-golf-clubs.htm Ok so John states he didn't ask for his clubs.

Now this from ST book quoted on ACR- (same link)

“JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation”by Steve Thomas and Don Davis, April 11, 2000ST
Page 48
"That evening, John Ramsey went to Crist Mortuary to discuss funeral arrangements. In addition to the usual rites, transportation was needed for burial in Atlanta.Patsy awoke while he was gone and staggered from the bedroom to a couch, barely able to speak, and told her sisters she needed some things from Fifteenth Street. John was overheard to ask someone quietly, "Did you get my golf bag?" When I learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. Neither bag was collected by police. Moreover, it was winter in Colorado, Michigan, and Georgia, not exactly optimal golfing conditions. Why would a man whose daughter had just been murdered be wanting his golf clubs anyway? I wondered what else might have been in the bag that was so important that Ramsey would even think to ask about it."

(((((Interesting.)))))):thinking:

 

[Annapurna]

johnjay,
BBM: Its pretty simple there may have been none. The CBS theory rests on an impulsive head whack, and that the sexual element represents staging, which might be correct?

That JonBenet may have been sexually assaulted prior to Christmas night it does not follow that the same person then killed her?

.

I just can't fathom the sexual assault being staging (I know, not an argument). It just seems "too far", and there is plenty of evidence which suggests to me that the SA is what was being hidden, undone, staged away. She was cleaned, blood wiped away so thoroughly that the ME could only see it using an alternate light source. She was dressed in clean panties (which we know due to the fact that there was evidence of there being a far greater amount of blood on her legs before she was cleaned than is present on the panties, and the fact that they are much too large to be comfortably worn). The RN also deviates from the sexual motive, suggesting several other motives that all point out of the house (money, revenge,etc.). If the intention was staging to appear a sexually motivated crime, then they probably would have alluded to that in the note or staged her body differently.

I believe the sexual element of the crime is why the R's determined a need for staging. They wanted to hide it, no one could know. If they did find out, it was someone else. Without the SA what you have is a horrific accident or if BR did the strangulation (which I believe) then you have a horrific act by a child, but with the SA & the strangulation you have a seriously disturbed child. Since he is a child, the public's blame would all go to the parents. For these reasons I believe her killer and molester were likely the same person. jmo