By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

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By Accident or on Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

  • An Intruder Killed JonBenet and Covered Up the Crime

    Votes: 38 7.1%
  • Patsy Ramsey Acted Alone in Killing JonBenet and Covering Up the Crime

    Votes: 23 4.3%
  • John Ramsey Acted Alone in Killing JonBenet and Covering Up the Crime

    Votes: 4 0.7%
  • Burke Killed JonBenet with Patsy and John Helping to Cover Up the Crime

    Votes: 394 73.4%
  • John and Patsy Acted Together in Killing JonBenet and Covering Up the Crime

    Votes: 30 5.6%
  • Other/I Don't Know

    Votes: 48 8.9%

  • Total voters
    537
In my own opinion I feel Burke did it with intent to severely harm JBR. I think his parents covered for him.
I don't think he has ever showed remorse or guilt or sadness. He, above all other children that cause an accidental death, deserved to be punished.
Even though he's been able to "go on with his life". JBR doesn't have that chance.
I think laws need to be changed. I feel that the law that protected him should be lowered to maybe 6. If the law is in place, the DA would have the option to prosecute if the situation required it. The DA can make the judgment in regard to intent.
Kids are maturing so much faster now. The law needs to be changed so this type of crime doesn't happen again.
 
Well, call me crazy, but from what I know of Patsy's mother, Nedra, she didn't seem like the kind of mother I'd want to have.
Nedra always gave me the willies. Even without her "JB was only a little bit molested" line, she'd still appear disturbed.

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She looks really out of place in this photograph and I feel sorry for them having her as a mother/grandmother.

IMO this is one of Patsy's best pictures. She's very attractive here.
 

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Nedra always gave me the willies. Even without her "JB was only a little bit molested" line, she'd still appear disturbed.

attachment.php


She looks really out of place in this photograph and I feel sorry for them having her as a mother/grandmother.

IMO this is one of Patsy's best pictures. She's very attractive here.

This picture is so creepy. What's the context? Patsy may look attractive, but it's still a weird picture. Was this a proof or something that was discarded and later published? It gives me chills...especially Nedra and Burke...but all of them really.
 
This picture is so creepy. What's the context? Patsy may look attractive, but it's still a weird picture. Was this a proof or something that was discarded and later published? It gives me chills...especially Nedra and Burke...but all of them really.
Here’s what I remember Cookie (Judith Phillips) once writing about the photo titled “The Salute.” It was taken as part of a themed collection of photos on the subject of “Motherhood.” She asked some of her clients to participate by coming for a photo shoot wearing whatever they thought appropriate. Here are her words from ACR (http://www.acandyrose.com/s-judith-phillips.htm):

JP: Of course I saw the physical changes with her hair and that she was dressed up like at her Christmas party she was dressed up in this Cinderella ball gown. I had never seen her in clothes like that. You know, I hadn't seen that before.And she was so perfectly coiffed you know, makeup. And when I did the photo shoot in the studio the one where she and her mom and Burke and Nedra were there. I saw her, really I left it up to the people to decide, how they wanted to present their family. I didn't say you had to wear these kinds of clothes, and so I was always very interested to see what mothers would bring to wear.

JP: laugh. So when I saw these elegant outfits I was, um, she, they were the only people that I'd ever photographed that way. And JonBenét had this incredible, beautiful white dress on, and then they applied the makeup and I photographed her, it was obvious to me that this was a little girl that had changed a lot, that I didn't know. No, I did not see the stress of JonBenét at all. What I saw in that photo shoot which was really the last time I, no, the second to last time I saw her alive, was that Patsy was in a frenzy, that she was late as usual, and she probably had another appointment that she was already late for so it was....c'mon, get...you know, she was real tense, and the kids were like real stiff and real obedient to her, they knew not to cross a certain line and then when I took the pictures, especially of JonBenét alone, I allowed her to be free and be herself and on some level, it was difficult for her to handle that. I remember I had to talk to her, encourage her, not to be quote, on, you know I wanted a deeper picture.



And from a posting at FFJ (http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...rensic-Expert-Mom-Did-it!&p=137607#post137607):

It was interesting doing the photo shoot of Patsy and all. I instruct my clients to wear whatever is comfortable and the plan the image they wish to project on film. When Patsy walked into the studio, I was a bit surprised at her outfit and those of Burke, Nedra and JB. I don't recall anyone else that I have ever photographed for the Motherhood book that showed up dressed to the hilt like the Ramsey family. Just an interesting observation.



Later in that same thread she wrote (tongue-in-cheek):

It's interesting to hear all your viewpoints from 1 photo. I was kind of going for the American Gothic look. Unlike in the painting where the husband and wife were holding a pitchfork, they all should have had tierras on holding a baseball bat, golf club and/or a garrote.


:floorlaugh:


Seems like she said at one time that JonBenet just spontaneously snapped the salute without prompting. It could be interpreted as her playful reaction while everyone else looked so somber. Maybe Patsy put her up to it without telling Phillips about it. Someone compared it to the famous photo of JohnJohn Kennedy at his father’s funeral. I guess we’ll never know exactly what was going through her mind when she decided to raise her hand in the photo, but it impressed Phillips so much that she used the gesture as the title of the photo.


In Doc Miller’s book proposal he wrote the following about his wife (http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...Justice-quot-by-Thomas-C-quot-Doc-quot-Miller):

Judith Phillips captures souls on film. Her portrait of Patsy and JonBenet Ramsey, included in this proposal’s sample book cover, tells the underlying story of a little girl trapped in the beauty pageants of her mother’s glory days. The photograph comes from Phillips’ Motherhood collection.

Once Phillips picked up a camera, she established herself as a photographer. She won contests and awards as many publications in Boulder and Colorado published her work. She began a portrait business, and Patsy Ramsey became one of her artistic supporters and a patron. That led to the stunning images Phillips took of Patsy and her children growing up. Most of the photographs of Patsy, Burke and JonBenet are owned by American Media Corporation. Phillips owns or has permission for use of the photographs that accompany the manuscript.

In addition to the Ramsey images, Phillips has portraits of many of the characters associated with the case. Lawrence Schiller, author of Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Tabloid “Bad Boy,” Craig Lewis, and Carol McKinley of Fox News are some of the notables. Locals such as mayor Leslie Durgin, reporter Frank Coffman, the reluctant friend, Fleet White and the Moms Gone Bad softball team are included with others whose lives were caught in the maelstrom.



BTW, there’s much more from Cookie in that particular thread at FFJ if you read through a little more. The other photo showing the misshapen ring-finger was taken during that same photo shoot (as well as some other photos floating around), and it was then that she noticed that it looked like it had been broken. Also in that thread is a photo from a news article about Patsy’s bout with cancer and their 12-year friendship which Patsy later described as an “acquaintance.”
 
Thanks so much for the background, otg. It's very interesting, and still chilling IMO. Funny, but my very first thought was that JBR was doing John John's salute, which doesn't seem like something a child would normally do IMO. But it's really, really strange if Patsy did coach her to do it. What a complex and tragic family!

Here’s what I remember Cookie (Judith Phillips) once writing about the photo titled “The Salute.” It was taken as part of a themed collection of photos on the subject of “Motherhood.” She asked some of her clients to participate by coming for a photo shoot wearing whatever they thought appropriate. Here are her words from ACR (http://www.acandyrose.com/s-judith-phillips.htm):

JP: Of course I saw the physical changes with her hair and that she was dressed up like at her Christmas party she was dressed up in this Cinderella ball gown. I had never seen her in clothes like that. You know, I hadn't seen that before.And she was so perfectly coiffed you know, makeup. And when I did the photo shoot in the studio the one where she and her mom and Burke and Nedra were there. I saw her, really I left it up to the people to decide, how they wanted to present their family. I didn't say you had to wear these kinds of clothes, and so I was always very interested to see what mothers would bring to wear.

JP: laugh. So when I saw these elegant outfits I was, um, she, they were the only people that I'd ever photographed that way. And JonBenét had this incredible, beautiful white dress on, and then they applied the makeup and I photographed her, it was obvious to me that this was a little girl that had changed a lot, that I didn't know. No, I did not see the stress of JonBenét at all. What I saw in that photo shoot which was really the last time I, no, the second to last time I saw her alive, was that Patsy was in a frenzy, that she was late as usual, and she probably had another appointment that she was already late for so it was....c'mon, get...you know, she was real tense, and the kids were like real stiff and real obedient to her, they knew not to cross a certain line and then when I took the pictures, especially of JonBenét alone, I allowed her to be free and be herself and on some level, it was difficult for her to handle that. I remember I had to talk to her, encourage her, not to be quote, on, you know I wanted a deeper picture.



And from a posting at FFJ (http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...rensic-Expert-Mom-Did-it!&p=137607#post137607):

It was interesting doing the photo shoot of Patsy and all. I instruct my clients to wear whatever is comfortable and the plan the image they wish to project on film. When Patsy walked into the studio, I was a bit surprised at her outfit and those of Burke, Nedra and JB. I don't recall anyone else that I have ever photographed for the Motherhood book that showed up dressed to the hilt like the Ramsey family. Just an interesting observation.



Later in that same thread she wrote (tongue-in-cheek):

It's interesting to hear all your viewpoints from 1 photo. I was kind of going for the American Gothic look. Unlike in the painting where the husband and wife were holding a pitchfork, they all should have had tierras on holding a baseball bat, golf club and/or a garrote.


:floorlaugh:


Seems like she said at one time that JonBenet just spontaneously snapped the salute without prompting. It could be interpreted as her playful reaction while everyone else looked so somber. Maybe Patsy put her up to it without telling Phillips about it. Someone compared it to the famous photo of JohnJohn Kennedy at his father’s funeral. I guess we’ll never know exactly what was going through her mind when she decided to raise her hand in the photo, but it impressed Phillips so much that she used the gesture as the title of the photo.


In Doc Miller’s book proposal he wrote the following about his wife (http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...Justice-quot-by-Thomas-C-quot-Doc-quot-Miller):

Judith Phillips captures souls on film. Her portrait of Patsy and JonBenet Ramsey, included in this proposal’s sample book cover, tells the underlying story of a little girl trapped in the beauty pageants of her mother’s glory days. The photograph comes from Phillips’ Motherhood collection.

Once Phillips picked up a camera, she established herself as a photographer. She won contests and awards as many publications in Boulder and Colorado published her work. She began a portrait business, and Patsy Ramsey became one of her artistic supporters and a patron. That led to the stunning images Phillips took of Patsy and her children growing up. Most of the photographs of Patsy, Burke and JonBenet are owned by American Media Corporation. Phillips owns or has permission for use of the photographs that accompany the manuscript.

In addition to the Ramsey images, Phillips has portraits of many of the characters associated with the case. Lawrence Schiller, author of Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Tabloid “Bad Boy,” Craig Lewis, and Carol McKinley of Fox News are some of the notables. Locals such as mayor Leslie Durgin, reporter Frank Coffman, the reluctant friend, Fleet White and the Moms Gone Bad softball team are included with others whose lives were caught in the maelstrom.



BTW, there’s much more from Cookie in that particular thread at FFJ if you read through a little more. The other photo showing the misshapen ring-finger was taken during that same photo shoot (as well as some other photos floating around), and it was then that she noticed that it looked like it had been broken. Also in that thread is a photo from a news article about Patsy’s bout with cancer and their 12-year friendship which Patsy later described as an “acquaintance.”
 
In my own opinion I feel Burke did it with intent to severely harm JBR. I think his parents covered for him.
I don't think he has ever showed remorse or guilt or sadness. He, above all other children that cause an accidental death, deserved to be punished.
Even though he's been able to "go on with his life". JBR doesn't have that chance.
I think laws need to be changed. I feel that the law that protected him should be lowered to maybe 6. If the law is in place, the DA would have the option to prosecute if the situation required it. The DA can make the judgment in regard to intent.
Kids are maturing so much faster now. The law needs to be changed so this type of crime doesn't happen again.

It's an interesting point you raise I'm not sure the exact age a child should be held legally responsible for a crime like this. I don't know if you would know the severe consequences of your actions by intentionally killing someone at age 9. BR should definitely have been put under court appointed psychiatric care if he allegedly displayed enough anger to kill his sister at 9 years of age.
 
Nedra always gave me the willies. Even without her "JB was only a little bit molested" line, she'd still appear disturbed.

attachment.php


She looks really out of place in this photograph and I feel sorry for them having her as a mother/grandmother.

"Little bit molested." Boy, that opens up a lot of doors, doesn't it? Almost as if she were used to it. Marlene Dietrich's daughter claimed that she was molested by a female nanny, and that when she told her mother, Marlene's response was, "Well, you're not dead. Get over it." Words to that effect. Sadly, that was not an uncommon feeling among "proper" mothers in Nedra's day.

Yes, that picture truly is better than any words I could find.

IMO this is one of Patsy's best pictures. She's very attractive here.

She was a very pretty lady. I pray she's found peace now.
 
Nedra always gave me the willies. Even without her "JB was only a little bit molested" line, she'd still appear disturbed.

attachment.php


She looks really out of place in this photograph and I feel sorry for them having her as a mother/grandmother.

IMO this is one of Patsy's best pictures. She's very attractive here.
*shivers* "The salute" :facepalm: her comment was so gross to me regarding the "little bit molested". Never seen this picture though. Patsy is pretty in it.
 
Nedra always gave me the willies. Even without her "JB was only a little bit molested" line, she'd still appear disturbed.

attachment.php


She looks really out of place in this photograph and I feel sorry for them having her as a mother/grandmother.

IMO this is one of Patsy's best pictures. She's very attractive here.
I mean seriously though... Nedra looks like she's about to break out some American Horror Story moves in this photo. Come to think of it.... with the exception of JBR, this is An American Horror Story.
 
If Burke was involved in her death, it was purely by accident with no intention of harming her. I don't think most 9 yo's think about killing their 6 yo sibling. I think it was ashphyxiation that killed her, not the head trauma. The head injury came later as part of the staging with the garrote to cover up how she really died. Most theories involve others "killing" her. Why couldn't she have accidentally killed herself with the parents simply covering up the truth to save embarrassment and shame? I can picture Burke tying a rope around JBR's torso including her arms, tying the rope to a motorized mini car (like the one Jbr is riding in a x-mas video) and trying to drag her for fun. The rope slips up her arms and around her neck and BR doesn't realize it. Countless accident scenarios with a rope... It was an accident with the Ramsey's covering up the truth out of shame and fear of how they would be viewed as parents. They would have called 911 under any other circumstance. Perhaps Burke didn't realize until it was too late. Everything else is just cover up and once the ball started rolling, it was impossible to stop. (See my full explanation in theory forum).
 
Wow. Almost 83% now feel Burke did it. :eek: Kudos CBS for finally doing the right thing and investigating this properly.
 
If Burke was involved in her death, it was purely by accident with no intention of harming her. I don't think most 9 yo's think about killing their 6 yo sibling. I think it was ashphyxiation that killed her, not the head trauma. The head injury came later as part of the staging with the garrote to cover up how she really died. Most theories involve others "killing" her. Why couldn't she have accidentally killed herself with the parents simply covering up the truth to save embarrassment and shame? I can picture Burke tying a rope around JBR's torso including her arms, tying the rope to a motorized mini car (like the one Jbr is riding in a x-mas video) and trying to drag her for fun. The rope slips up her arms and around her neck and BR doesn't realize it. Countless accident scenarios with a rope... It was an accident with the Ramsey's covering up the truth out of shame and fear of how they would be viewed as parents. They would have called 911 under any other circumstance. Perhaps Burke didn't realize until it was too late. Everything else is just cover up and once the ball started rolling, it was impossible to stop. (See my full explanation in theory forum).
Yes a lot of accidents can happen with ropes. Agreed. But, JonBenet had IIRC 3 head injuries in 24 months, the last one killed her or at least would have killed her had she not been put out of her misery. It was estimated that it took anywhere from 45 min to 2 hours after the head injury that the garrote was applied. You are right however that the garrote did kill her, however the head injury would have been fatal. Dr. Spitz said she was brain dead after the head injury. I can only imagine what she must have been suffering after that head injury. I imagine she was having seizures and possibly death rattles (noisy breathing proceeding death). That may be the reason the garrote was used. I cannot imagine it was peaceful. Poor child :(
 
i said there isn't any evidence that burke was involved. None. Fingerprints on a bowl with pineapple? What else?

you mean physical evedence.....because the interviews (all of them) are enough eveidence for most of us (and i always thought he did it in a fit of anger anyhow)
 
you mean physical evedence.....because the interviews (all of them) are enough eveidence for most of us (and i always thought he did it in a fit of anger anyhow)

That poster is no longer a member, just to let you know.....I would think the person will join up under another name so keep an eye out for someone who talks about the "stakes" people like Chief Kolar have in this case!
 
I said there isn't any evidence that Burke was involved. NONE. Fingerprints on a bowl with pineapple? What else?

I thought I'd warn you that this site heavily BDI since the CBS special, but upon reading back, you already understand that. The circumstantial evidence for BDI is in Kolar's book. If you want to argue those points, fine. But to ask others to circle back and argue tit for tat...seriously, isn't that a waste of your time. You already know the points.

You also brought-up the idea that the Ramseys were persecuted for their wealth. No. They weren't. That's the story the Ramseys wanted to promote. They hired a publicist. The Ramseys were persecuted for: their leaving town, not scheduling immediate interviews with the police, not being at the police station wanting to know how the investigation was going, choosing CNN and promoting public opinion, telling their neighbors not to talk to the press or the police, not cooperating with the police and crying that the police "suspected them and it wasn't fair."

John actually had to explain that hiring an attorney wasn't his idea. Really? You just found your daughter dead in your home and it doesn't occur to you that you're going to be a suspect. That's insulting to his intelligence and ours. Of course he knew he was going to be a suspect. He knew everybody in that home was going to be a suspect. He would have been stupid had he not known that.

Honestly, if AH was doing his job, he would have said, "There is an ongoing investigation and we're not ruling anyone out at this time. A child has been murdered and we need to do our job thoroughly and completely." This is a standard line in investigations. The detectives investigating the case weren't allowed to take their complaints to the public. The Ramseys were. They were investigating the Ramseys and intruders at the same time.

They weren't persecuted for their wealth, but readily promoted that idea.

All in my opinion, of course.
 
Wow. Almost 83% now feel Burke did it. :eek: Kudos CBS for finally doing the right thing and investigating this properly.

And a big thanks to Dr. Phil & Lin Wood! Without their dumbass move to try to get out in front of the CBS special, we would have never seen how twisted the adult Burke Ramsey is today.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
If Lin Wood orchestrated this and Burke slipped saying he went downstairs to play with his toy when everyone was asleep, then there's a contradiction. I might be alone with this belief, but a good attorney will not ask a question in court unless he/she already knows the answer. You don't put someone into an interview unless you can control the questions and/or the answers. And if you can't control the questions then you control the answers. You prep the hell out of the client. You make sure that even someone throwing softballs at your client can't trip them up so you prepare them for any and all questions. This isn't a deposition. It's a televised interview. There is more leeway in how the client can be prepped.

Dr Phil said the questions weren't controlled and he could ask whatever he wanted. I don't remember any claim that Burke wasn't prepped in advance.

Dr Phil said he "thought" John said he used the flashlight to put Burke to bed. This wasn't John or Burke saying they used the flashlight but Dr Phil "thought" it was said. Before this time Patsy and John denied knowing anything about the flashlight. Now it's in play. They put it into John's hands, but there's still deniability. If they manage to find new evidence on the flashlight, there's now a reason why John's hands were on it the night of the murder.

Burke was also brought into play. He went downstairs after the family went to bed. This does not mean he was in the basement, but can put him in the living room. Most people here believe this was a slip. Before this time, Burke wouldn't talk to LE and had his attorney send a cease and desist letter. It would be a weak assumption to believe that Burke still doesn't have legal representation. And if he had legal representation, how is it that they wouldn't know what Burke was going to say before he said it in such an important interview? So why did they permit Burke to reveal that he was downstairs at almost the same time the intruder was supposed to be there? The only conclusion I've been able to reach about this is that this wasn't a bombshell. Burke planned to make this statement before the interview and he wasn't the only one who knew about it.

This is my opinion, of course.
 
If Lin Wood orchestrated this and Burke slipped saying he went downstairs to play with his toy when everyone was asleep, then there's a contradiction. I might be alone with this belief, but a good attorney will not ask a question in court unless he/she already knows the answer. You don't put someone into an interview unless you can control the questions and/or the answers. And if you can't control the questions then you control the answers. You prep the hell out of the client. You make sure that even someone throwing softballs at your client can't trip them up so you prepare them for any and all questions. This isn't a deposition. It's a televised interview. There is more leeway in how the client can be prepped.

Dr Phil said the questions weren't controlled and he could ask whatever he wanted. I don't remember any claim that Burke wasn't prepped in advance.

Dr Phil said he "thought" John said he used the flashlight to put Burke to bed. This wasn't John or Burke saying they used the flashlight but Dr Phil "thought" it was said. Before this time Patsy and John denied knowing anything about the flashlight. Now it's in play. They put it into John's hands, but there's still deniability. If they manage to find new evidence on the flashlight, there's now a reason why John's hands were on it the night of the murder.

Burke was also brought into play. He went downstairs after the family went to bed. This does not mean he was in the basement, but can put him in the living room. Most people here believe this was a slip. Before this time, Burke wouldn't talk to LE and had his attorney send a cease and desist letter. It would be a weak assumption to believe that Burke still doesn't have legal representation. And if he had legal representation, how is it that they wouldn't know what Burke was going to say before he said it in such an important interview? So why did they permit Burke to reveal that he was downstairs at almost the same time the intruder was supposed to be there? The only conclusion I've been able to reach about this is that this wasn't a bombshell. Burke planned to make this statement before the interview and he wasn't the only one who knew about it.

This is my opinion, of course.

BoldBear,
BR's revelation about being downstairs might also be to counter the CBS special claim that BR was eating pineapple? BR can at some point in the future make such a claim, so explaining away some forensic evidence, then BR went to bed, oh and JonBenet must have got up and eaten some pineapple BR left behind?
 
Firmly BDI here. Even moreso with the recent interview with him.

Intruder theory I cannot make sense of at all, and believe me I have tried.

I cannot see John or Patsy covering for the other. Which leaves Burke. Who they would cover for.
 
In my own opinion I feel Burke did it with intent to severely harm JBR. I think his parents covered for him.
I don't think he has ever showed remorse or guilt or sadness. He, above all other children that cause an accidental death, deserved to be punished.
Even though he's been able to "go on with his life". JBR doesn't have that chance.
I think laws need to be changed. I feel that the law that protected him should be lowered to maybe 6. If the law is in place, the DA would have the option to prosecute if the situation required it. The DA can make the judgment in regard to intent.
Kids are maturing so much faster now. The law needs to be changed so this type of crime doesn't happen again.


Here here.
 

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