Found Deceased CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

[Megnut]

Thank you so much for choosing this level of detail and putting down those dots. The truck would be way over to the right, with this orientation.

If this is not the result of water-based movement (to whatever degree that occurred), then Fang almost made it out, to the road.

So sad....

Potentially just a series of unfortunate events...

Maybe they set out at night or early morning.... if he had a medical event, she'd have been so very, very lost....

No way out...

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Thank you so much for choosing this level of detail and putting down those dots. The truck would be way over to the right, with this orientation.

If this is not the result of water-based movement (to whatever degree that occurred), then Fang almost made it out, to the road.

You're welcome. I chose this view looking east because it clearly shows the slope of Harper Canyon and the wash. If water movement was involved, it's easy to see how it could have happened.

We know from the earlier photographs that John's remains were found amongst rocks. Based on the Google Earth image of the coordinates, it appears that Fang's remains were also found near large rocks jutting up out of the wash.

I think it's almost inevitable that they must have been moved by the water to some degree. Both were found in a canyon/wash after the heaviest rainfall in decades; realistically, what are the chances the flooding wouldn't have moved them at least a short distance?

Whether John was injured or just succumbed to the heat sooner, I think you're correct that Fang must have made it closer to the road. Fang was lighter than John and would have likely been carried further by flood water, but being carried almost three miles further seems unlikely.

For the sake of both families I hope LE can work out the probable scenario.

 

[10ofRods]

You're welcome. I chose this view looking east because it clearly shows the slope of Harper Canyon and the wash. If water movement was involved, it's easy to see how it could have happened.

We know from the earlier photographs that John's remains were found amongst rocks. Based on the Google Earth image of the coordinates, it appears that Fang's remains were also found near large rocks jutting up out of the wash.

I think it's almost inevitable that they must have been moved by the water to some degree. Both were found in a canyon/wash after the heaviest rainfall in decades; realistically, what are the chances the flooding wouldn't have moved them at least a short distance?

Whether John was injured or just succumbed to the heat sooner, I think you're correct that Fang must have made it closer to the road. Fang was lighter than John and would have likely been carried further by flood water, but being carried almost three miles further seems unlikely.

For the sake of both families I hope LE can work out the probable scenario.

Exactly. And I think they had to be lower down in the canyon to have almost exited it and have JRF still with some of his clothes. Fang is clearly out on the sandy delta of the Canyon. Three miles is a big distance of separation, at any rate.

OTOH, the fact that she's on that delta does really give credibility to *some* water movement of the bodies. I'll assume that if JRF was still wearing his clothes when this happened, that Fang was too. So they died up there somewhere, highest likelihood is that they were already in the canyon (I know that's rather obvious, just mulling it over).

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Exactly. And I think they had to be lower down in the canyon to have almost exited it and have JRF still with some of his clothes. Fang is clearly out on the sandy delta of the Canyon. Three miles is a big distance of separation, at any rate.

OTOH, the fact that she's on that delta does really give credibility to *some* water movement of the bodies. I'll assume that if JRF was still wearing his clothes when this happened, that Fang was too. So they died up there somewhere, highest likelihood is that they were already in the canyon (I know that's rather obvious, just mulling it over).

I desperately wish we knew *exactly* where the truck was found.

If the aim was to get back towards the road or to a cellphone signal, either Pinyon Wash or Harper Canyon would have been valid routes to take. Personally I'd go to whichever was closest. They appear to have chosen Harper Canyon, and yet Harper Canyon seems to be a long way from where the truck *should* have been.

If the truck was somehow in the eastern sector of Harper Flat near to Harper Canyon, how did it get there? If it wasn't in the eastern sector near to Harper Canyon, why did they walk all the way across the flat when Pinyon Wash was closer?

Still so many questions.

 

[Sundog]

I desperately wish we knew *exactly* where the truck was found.

If the aim was to get back towards the road or to a cellphone signal, either Pinyon Wash or Harper Canyon would have been valid routes to take. Personally I'd go to whichever was closest. They appear to have chosen Harper Canyon, and yet Harper Canyon seems to be a long way from where the truck *should* have been.

If the truck was somehow in the eastern sector of Harper Flat near to Harper Canyon, how did it get there? If it wasn't in the eastern sector near to Harper Canyon, why did they walk all the way across the flat when Pinyon Wash was closer?

Still so many questions.

And LE still have to rule out foul play. At this point, although it seems unlikely, this still has to be determined as conclusively as possible.

 

[10ofRods]

I desperately wish we knew *exactly* where the truck was found.

If the aim was to get back towards the road or to a cellphone signal, either Pinyon Wash or Harper Canyon would have been valid routes to take. Personally I'd go to whichever was closest. They appear to have chosen Harper Canyon, and yet Harper Canyon seems to be a long way from where the truck *should* have been.

If the truck was somehow in the eastern sector of Harper Flat near to Harper Canyon, how did it get there? If it wasn't in the eastern sector near to Harper Canyon, why did they walk all the way across the flat when Pinyon Wash was closer?

Still so many questions.

I think the truck must have been due south from the edge of Harper Flat that's closest to Harper Canyon. It just has to be (unless they were very disoriented). That could mean that they crossed Harper Flat at one of its wider points/angles - I sure do hope they had some kind of map with them (although I doubt they had anything other than JRF's phone - which would have still presented some kind of map if he had the map already open).

That would have meant walking from where ever the truck was, then 2 miles or so across Harper Flat. The easiest approach to Harper Flat from the south would have been closer to Pinyon Wash, so I have to think they crossed it on its eastern side, which is longer. All of Harper Flat is unshaded. And I still believe that while the area got heavy rain (it was heavier in 2012, btw), it's the gushers in the Canyons that can really move things. So I believe they had to have been in the Canyon when they perished.

I try to keep in mind that collapsing in the heat would be unlikely to occur to both of them at the same time, in the same place.

I think the truck has to be in the eastern sector - unless of course, they passed by the trail to Pinyon Wash, thinking it was too difficult, and then by the time they got to Harper Canyon, had no choice.

I do think that for the bodies to end up where they were, they had to have both gone into Harper Canyon.

IMO.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I think the truck must have been due south from the edge of Harper Flat that's closest to Harper Canyon. It just has to be (unless they were very disoriented). That could mean that they crossed Harper Flat at one of its wider points/angles - I sure do hope they had some kind of map with them (although I doubt they had anything other than JRF's phone - which would have still presented some kind of map if he had the map already open).

That would have meant walking from where ever the truck was, then 2 miles or so across Harper Flat. The easiest approach to Harper Flat from the south would have been closer to Pinyon Wash, so I have to think they crossed it on its eastern side, which is longer. All of Harper Flat is unshaded. And I still believe that while the area got heavy rain (it was heavier in 2012, btw), it's the gushers in the Canyons that can really move things. So I believe they had to have been in the Canyon when they perished.

I try to keep in mind that collapsing in the heat would be unlikely to occur to both of them at the same time, in the same place.

I think the truck has to be in the eastern sector - unless of course, they passed by the trail to Pinyon Wash, thinking it was too difficult, and then by the time they got to Harper Canyon, had no choice.

I do think that for the bodies to end up where they were, they had to have both gone into Harper Canyon.

IMO.

I still wonder if they were looking for Dave McCain Spring, which is directly due south of Harper Canyon in the south-eastern sector of Harper Flat:

Google Earth

earth.google.com

The spring is now dry, apparently, but when John was a boy it might have still been flowing. He might not have known it's now dry.

The spring can be accessed in a vehicle from Hapaha Flat, but it's unclear if it would be at all possible to drive over the ridge and end up on Harper Flat. I guess you might wreck your truck *trying* to do that!

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

And LE still have to rule out foul play. At this point, although it seems unlikely, this still has to be determined as conclusively as possible.

I never *completely* discount any possibilities, but at this point it seems so unlikely foul play was involved.

LE have repeatedly said this isn't a criminal investigation and they have no suspects. Leaving the truck to rust in the desert for so long also doesn't seem like a smart investigative move if there's a chance it was the scene of a crime.

LE have certain things they're supposed to do unless they're completely dropping the ball, but this just doesn't feel like anything other than a tragic accident to me. Having said that, new information could quickly and easily change my mind.

 

[10ofRods]

If JRF actually took no water with them (nothing beyond, say, a liter each) and thought he remembered where McCain Spring was, he was more over-confident than I have yet imagined. I can't imagine going out there (even to just the Salton Sea area, which is more populated) without a *lot* of water. Heck, I carry 5 gallons for my daily 20 mile (one way) commute - because I have been stranded at the side of an L.A. freeway in 115F heat and watched both CHP and local police just pass me by (this was before cell phones - but AAA can take its sweet time getting to a call, that's for sure). I've waited an hour for AAA before.

One hour at 115F is not good. And surfaces (like canyon walls) radiate heat and make it even hotter. I'm using weather station values, which are taken in the shade.

I want to have enough water to also use for evaporative cooling (combined with appropriate headgear).

Anza-Borrego back roads are so remote, I wouldn't go without 25 gallons - or more. I also know that I can't carry more than four gallons (and I'd have to offload most of the stuff from my backpack and carry part of that by hand - so, realistically, I can only carry 2 gallons on a hike that involves scrambling - which the descent down Harper Canyon does). LE has said they have found no evidence of water with the couple (but I don't know if that's just based on the truck - or on reconstructing the entire trip across Harper Flat to Harper Canyon). I try to think what I'd do if I were stranded south of Harper Flat. How much water would I take to make that journey to Old Kane Springs Road, in the hope of flagging someone down? I think I would have gone back the way I came (toward the west on Pinyon Mountain Road to the 52 - the 52 has lots of traffic and, I believe, cell phone service along most of its length. For one thing, it would have been a bit cooler to stay walking at a higher altitude. For another reason, it's in the direction of the closest cell tower (in Julian). Plus, the 52 is the typical route taken by tourists in that park and aid could have been sought.

All I can think is that either they were without water and very desperate OR JRF didn't think it through - it seems to me that it would have been about 6-7 miles to relative safety in either direction - but with more chance of cell/help going due west, back along Pinyon Mtn Road if that's where they were, which I think is the case (see @Herat's excellent posts).

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/476959416762121530/

^Road map of Anza Borrego

The big missing piece is the exact location of the truck - but no matter where it was along 52 or Pinyon Mtn Road, it would have been a long walk-out in the heat. I am assuming it was in the section north of Whale Peak (the road is at an altitude of about 2600 feet - there's a ridge to cross to get to Harper Flat). If people have enough water to wait until dark, then the obvious thing to do is take your flashlight and use the road to walk to the 52 - it's a relatively wide and flat dirt road, not a cross-country hike into a canyon. Meanwhile, stay in the shade of the truck itself. Soak your hat in water and attempt not to move much. It could have been as hot as 120F in Harper Canyon at 3-4 pm. It likely would have been about 110-112 in the shade at 3 pm up on Pinyon Mtn Road. I think it's telling that LE has mentioned a lack of evidence of water. I assume that means neither person had a camelpak style water carrier in evidence. I was struck all along (esp in the picture at Thermal) at the lack of a big water supply in the back of the truck.

Surely they thought they were just doing a day trip when something went wrong. They could have been camping somewhere off Pinyon Mtn Road, as well (dispersed camping) and their things might never be found or identified, after mid-August.

IMO.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I think the texts John sent to Fang are crucial.

He told her he grew up in Borrego Springs and knew the area well. That's the area they were visiting. He told her he knew how to find water and shelter. They were found seemingly without either.

The exact circumstances John described to Fang seem to be the circumstances they found themselves in; and which went horribly wrong.

 

[10ofRods]

I think the texts John sent to Fang are crucial.

He told her he grew up in Borrego Springs and knew the area well. That's the area they were visiting. He told her he knew how to find water and shelter. They were found seemingly without either.

The exact circumstances John described to Fang seem to be the circumstances they found themselves in; and which went horribly wrong.

I remember he said those things.

I just don't believe him completely. He was born on the East Coast, IIRC and moved to Borrego Springs (which is a TOWN in the desert - not California's largest desert park like Anza-Borrego). He was, I believe, living there from around age 3-12. IME, that age group does NOT know a lot about desert survival (although, they may think that they do). And people who have actually lived in the desert all their lives still underestimate the effects of aging on heat exhaustion.

No one can find water in a desert where there is no water.

He should have known that. Even in the outback of Australia, learning where each spring is (this year, this season) is difficult and only experienced locals who live right in the area can find water. At any rate, there was and is no water out there (barring rainfall). McCain Springs has been dry for ages, AFAIK. The area where they were didn't even have suitable cacti for trying to obtain a bit of moisture (and that takes specialized knowledge of local cacti, as most are going to make a person sick - or even kill).

Neither of them had any significant amount of fat on their bodies, either (fat stores water, so overweight people may survive slightly longer when water runs out). They do not appear to be wearing the kinds of hats that are most likely to stay damp when wetted, either. Of course, we don't know what they wearing that day, but other pictures do not show desert hiking readiness. So I keep assuming they didn't intend to get stranded up there. They were not *that* far off the main heritage/tourist road (which has plenty of traffic).

The circumstances are indeed eerily similar to what was in those texts. However, he thought he had his truck with him and I assume they weren't going to test their limits to this degree. If that's what he had her doing, well, I have no words.

IMO

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I remember he said those things.

I just don't believe him completely. He was born on the East Coast, IIRC and moved to Borrego Springs (which is a TOWN in the desert - not California's largest desert park like Anza-Borrego). He was, I believe, living there from around age 3-12. IME, that age group does NOT know a lot about desert survival (although, they may think that they do). And people who have actually lived in the desert all their lives still underestimate the effects of aging on heat exhaustion.

No one can find water in a desert where there is no water.

He should have known that. Even in the outback of Australia, learning where each spring is (this year, this season) is difficult and only experienced locals who live right in the area can find water. At any rate, there was and is no water out there (barring rainfall). McCain Springs has been dry for ages, AFAIK. The area where they were didn't even have suitable cacti for trying to obtain a bit of moisture (and that takes specialized knowledge of local cacti, as most are going to make a person sick - or even kill).

Neither of them had any significant amount of fat on their bodies, either (fat stores water, so overweight people may survive slightly longer when water runs out). They do not appear to be wearing the kinds of hats that are most likely to stay damp when wetted, either. Of course, we don't know what they wearing that day, but other pictures do not show desert hiking readiness. So I keep assuming they didn't intend to get stranded up there. They were not *that* far off the main heritage/tourist road (which has plenty of traffic).

The circumstances are indeed eerily similar to what was in those texts. However, he thought he had his truck with him and I assume they weren't going to test their limits to this degree. If that's what he had her doing, well, I have no words.

IMO

Ultimately I think it boils down to this:

In trying to figure out what happened, it really doesn't matter what we think was sensible or what we think should or shouldn't have been done. It only matters what John and Fang thought they could do on that day. If Fang was trusting that John knew what to do, sadly people do overestimate their own ability/underestimate the conditions/fail to plan for every eventuality. And that's when tragedies happen.

 

[mark1969]

Sorry if I missed this, but do we know what kind of phone Fang had? Possibly various data was backed up to the cloud (eg, iCloud on iOS.)

She used a Chinese Huawei

 

[10ofRods]

Ultimately I think it boils down to this:

In trying to figure out what happened, it really doesn't matter what we think was sensible or what we think should or shouldn't have been done. It only matters what John and Fang thought they could do on that day. If Fang was trusting that John knew what to do, sadly people do overestimate their own ability/underestimate the conditions/fail to plan for every eventuality. And that's when tragedies happen.

'All the time. Accounts for a large percentage of deaths in national parks and wilderness areas.

A very large percentage.

Death in Grand Canyon (Ghiglieri) is a compendium. Off the Wall (Death in Yosemite) is also a good read. Death in Yellowstone is also available. Many others.

People overestimate themselves all the time. I can't say that Fang would know the area - she would have "thought" that JRF was knowledgeable, IMO.

JRF may have overestimated what non-Navy Seals can do. He may have thought he could teach or show every human how to survive out there (he was not in charge of his own training - he was probably taught otherwise). If it turns out that he was the failure component (I think the Coroner will try to be..diplomatic..but some facts may come out), then he was...wrong. People are wrong sometimes. Taking a newbie into very hot temperatures is already a kind of statistical error, IMO.

Many people don't know they have a medical susceptibility until they experience it. You are right on.

IMO.

 

[Megnut]

It remains possible to me at least that they set out at nightfall for the cooler temperatures, leaving early to avoid the heat. They'd get a sunset and sunrise.... but if something happened to the truck ... they'd be in a world of hurt... heat of day racheting up...time, not on their side, crisis escalating fast...

Tragic.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

'All the time. Accounts for a large percentage of deaths in national parks and wilderness areas.

A very large percentage.

Death in Grand Canyon (Ghiglieri) is a compendium. Off the Wall (Death in Yosemite) is also a good read. Death in Yellowstone is also available. Many others.

People overestimate themselves all the time. I can't say that Fang would know the area - she would have "thought" that JRF was knowledgeable, IMO.

JRF may have overestimated what non-Navy Seals can do. He may have thought he could teach or show every human how to survive out there (he was not in charge of his own training - he was probably taught otherwise). If it turns out that he was the failure component (I think the Coroner will try to be..diplomatic..but some facts may come out), then he was...wrong. People are wrong sometimes. Taking a newbie into very hot temperatures is already a kind of statistical error, IMO.

Many people don't know they have a medical susceptibility until they experience it. You are right on.

IMO.

I'm sure I've read that John had been a SEAL trainer for the last few years of his time in the military. So he *was* capable of training others--but of course the people he was training were already elite soldiers.

And he retired over ten years ago. In the intervening years he had become an alcoholic and looked really unhealthy in some photos. Despite looking much healthier in the recent pictures he was clearly not a fit young SEAL anymore.

I think your earlier post is correct and it will turn out that John collapsed first. What caused him and Fang to be in that position in the first place... I hope LE can figure it out.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

It remains possible to me at least that they set out at nightfall for the cooler temperatures, leaving early to avoid the heat. They'd get a sunset and sunrise.... but if something happened to the truck ... they'd be in a world of hurt... heat of day racheting up...time, not on their side, crisis escalating fast...

Tragic.

I'm not an adventurous person, and can't imagine wanting to be out in the desert at nighttime, with nothing but car headlamps lighting the way.

However, it does make sense that Fang and John might have wanted to be away from the city lights at a time when the heat was more bearable. And it does make sense that some kind of accident could have damaged the truck in the darkness, leaving them stranded in conditions they never expected (and hadn't planned) to face.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm sure I've read that John had been a SEAL trainer for the last few years of his time in the military. So he *was* capable of training others--but of course the people he was training were already elite soldiers.

And he retired over ten years ago. In the intervening years he had become an alcoholic and looked really unhealthy in some photos. Despite looking much healthier in the recent pictures he was clearly not a fit young SEAL anymore.

I think your earlier post is correct and it will turn out that John collapsed first. What caused him and Fang to be in that position in the first place... I hope LE can figure it out.

Training is very different as you say. AFAIK, Jin Fang did not come to the US for "training." Military trainees are screened, obviously.

She couldn't possibly have known that he wanted to "train" her. Or that she was supposed to be up to Navy Seal standards. We may never know who collapsed first (due to the August flooding). I think she thought it was a potential romantic relationship, not a "training."

It ended up with him being the weak link, IMO. Just guessing, based on relative positions and age/sex.

Of course, there is no such "training," which is why I cited three volumes above. No one should try and operate a wilderness training without reading up on the topic, IMO. So, I'm going to go with "he made some mistakes and didn't realize it; she had no alternate means of transport (and somehow, no communication) and so she relied on him.

Women often rely on men (I do, although I would not go into an environment where I would be solo and compromised - I do think about what would happen if my partner couldn't do their share; I am often the weakest link and therefore, do not lead or train people in the desert - even if I could survive there for a few days, on my own).

IMO.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Training is very different as you say. AFAIK, Jin Fang did not come to the US for "training." Military trainees are screened, obviously.

She couldn't possibly have known that he wanted to "train" her. Or that she was supposed to be up to Navy Seal standards. We may never know who collapsed first (due to the August flooding). I think she thought it was a potential romantic relationship, not a "training."

It ended up with him being the weak link, IMO. Just guessing, based on relative positions and age/sex.

Of course, there is no such "training," which is why I cited three volumes above. No one should try and operate a wilderness training without reading up on the topic, IMO. So, I'm going to go with "he made some mistakes and didn't realize it; she had no alternate means of transport (and somehow, no communication) and so she relied on him.

Women often rely on men (I do, although I would not go into an environment where I would be solo and compromised - I do think about what would happen if my partner couldn't do their share; I am often the weakest link and therefore, do not lead or train people in the desert - even if I could survive there for a few days, on my own).

IMO.

It's a bit difficult to explain, but what I picture in my mind isn't so much John wanting to train Fang.

Because he wrote the texts saying they should start a business together, where they would take Chinese tourists out to the desert and he would teach them survival skills, I picture him wanting to show Fang the desert and show her some of the skills he told her about.

Less about training her, more about wanting to impress her. Completely innocent, should have been harmless fun, but unfortunate circumstances turned it into something else.