CA CA - Los Angeles County, WhtFem 225UFCA 1 of 2 Children killed by dynamite, 1921-1951

[LaborDayRN]

What reasons would there be for sticks of dynamite to be lying around?

Dynamite was commonly used while building dams. Maybe they came across some that was left behind and it was very unstable.

Nitroglycerin is a powerful and unstable explosive that Alfred Nobel used in his invention of dynamite in the mid 1800s. Nobel developed this easily handled explosive to great benefit in his heavy construction businesses (roads, tunnels, etc.).

Does Old dynamite become unstable?
Dynamite was invented by Alfred Nobel in 1867 [7]. The classical dynamite explosives are not very safe since they contain much NG. NG by itself is a very strong explosive, and in its pure form it is extremely shock-sensitive, and degrades over time to even more unstable forms.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/nitroglycerin

 

[Springrain]

Dynamite was commonly used while building dams. Maybe they came across some that was left behind and it was very unstable.

Nitroglycerin is a powerful and unstable explosive that Alfred Nobel used in his invention of dynamite in the mid 1800s. Nobel developed this easily handled explosive to great benefit in his heavy construction businesses (roads, tunnels, etc.).

Does Old dynamite become unstable?
Dynamite was invented by Alfred Nobel in 1867 [7]. The classical dynamite explosives are not very safe since they contain much NG. NG by itself is a very strong explosive, and in its pure form it is extremely shock-sensitive, and degrades over time to even more unstable forms.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/nitroglycerin

Thanks for the info! This makes sense since they were by a dam.

 

[Friday Fan]

Someone who had a career in forensic photography didn't label them?
That's really strange.

I look at old photos and they tend to have good labels...Such as: "Brown's Dam looking North East, July 1st, 1906"


It's very strange that the photographer did not date the photos.


Maybe the image being discussed is a copy that was undated?


Maybe the children were identified and this just happened to a copy laying around.

 

[Triss]

Do we know where the children are buried? Or is the photograph the only thing we have in this case?
I was thinking that a new reconstruction could be done on the girl and that the boy's DNA could be used to see what he might've looked like in life, but on the other hand their case is old. It's so old that anyone who knew them is probably already dead, even if the picture is from 1951.

 

[Friday Fan]

Do we know where the children are buried? Or is the photograph the only thing we have in this case?
I was thinking that a new reconstruction could be done on the girl and that the boy's DNA could be used to see what he might've looked like in life, but on the other hand their case is old. It's so old that anyone who knew them is probably already dead, even if the picture is from 1951.

Carl says that they are very likely cremated because that is what Los Angeles County did back then.

 

[Springrain]

Carl says that they are very likely cremated because that is what Los Angeles County did back then.

If I'm not mistaken, they still do that with UIDs.

I have to wonder if these kids are for a fact unidentified. Maybe they were identified soon after?

 

[pixiepixel]

A while back I did a thorough search of Los Angeles County death certificates from ‘21-‘51. No hits on any two does who died the same day, or even within a few days of each other, aside from causes like drowning or hanging. So, it’s my belief that either these kids were identified and their death certificates amended with their real names, OR this photo came from a friend in another police department. Either way I do not believe there are two unidentified children in LA county.

 

[rainwaterstill]

What reasons would there be for sticks of dynamite to be lying around?

Off the top of my head-
1) road construction. Having to blast through or away a mountain; levelling part of the very hilly uneven ground where a nice smooth straight paved roadway is supposed to go according to the construction plans.

2) Stone quarry to blast the stone free.

3) building dams. The following is from Wikipedia about building the Hoover Dam.
"The men who removed this rock were called "high scalers". While suspended from the top of the canyon with ropes, the high-scalers climbed down the canyon walls and removed the loose rock with jackhammers and dynamite. " Hoover Dam - Wikipedia

4) farming
"Stumps and large rocks were both great impediments to cultivation and were obvious targets for reduction by dynamite. However, as the books pointed out, “When you have a tree to fell, a ditch to be dug, land to be drained, logs to be split, a well, cistern, or cellar to be dug, or more important still, trees to be planted or land that needs subsoiling,” dynamite was the answer." Remembering the Days of Farming with Dynamite - Farm Collector

5) mining

 

[SisterGrimm]

How do we know they are both children? It would be difficult to believe two kids vanished without being identified. But if they're young adults I could see them being less of a concern for their whereabouts.

 

[Deenie1963]

The more I look at the picture, the more I think that the 'pointedness' is actually distortion in the photo.

Anyway, I looked a bit on wikipedia, and it seems that Loafers weren't really made on a larger scale in the US until at least the mid thirties. In any case, I am almost leaning towards the footwear being some sort of slippers, rather than shoes.

I was just looking at images of old advertisements of mens foot attire from the 1930’s and I began leaning towards the young males shoes actually being a pair of slippers too.

 

[Kamiko123132]

If this is a dynamite kill (Dont have any access to the book at all but i read everything what everyone has said and this is why i think happened) The boy and the girl had to have been walking around the dam BEFOre they even found it Most likey the boy found the dam and prob told the girl to come over and see. the boy prob saw it and didn't think anything of it as the boy had grabbed a stick most likey this dam had to be around a forest of some sort or woods something that could contain trees or sticks. I don't know how bombs work so yea he prob was just messing with the bomb with the stick then it exploded in his face. Which would make sense on why his head and upper part of his body was badly injured For the girl I don't remember what side of her face was Hurt. But theres two ways either she backed up and got caught meaning something from the bomb got to her and hurt her.

 

[RyGuy611]

Sounds similar to this.

Two Killed By Dynamite

Clipping found in The Pasadena Post published in Pasadena, California on 5/5/1936. Two Killed By Dynamite

www.newspapers.com

 

[AlexFromnic]

Could it have been Brenda Jo Howell & Donald Lee Baker?

2123DFCA - Brenda Jo Howell

They both disappeared while riding their bikes on Glendora Mtn. Road, which is near the San Gabriel Mtn. Dam & Reservoir. She was 12 yrs old, he was 15.

Their profiles state that Mack Ray Edwards admitted to killing them and 4 other children between 1953 and 1970. He was charged and convicted of killing 4 other children,, but he was never charged with these murders. Edwards worked in construction driving a bulldozer. Its possible the kids didn't die from playing w/ dynamite, but were killed by Edwards either using dynamite or disguised their murders with it.

Well no because they both went missing in 1956 and the photos are from an LAPD crime scene photographs from 1921-1951. So definitely.

 

[AlexFromnic]

february 1924 report
Re: February 20, 1924 Child ki - Genealogy.com

Not even close. The whole boys torso and head was blown to bits. He wouldnt be in a hospital in critical condition.

 

[AlexFromnic]

Sounds similar to this.

Two Killed By Dynamite

Clipping found in The Pasadena Post published in Pasadena, California on 5/5/1936. Two Killed By Dynamite

www.newspapers.com

Hmm.. they thought that it was a young boy younger than the female but the whole torso and head are missing so maybe..just maybe. But I tend go lean towards no.

 

[whorton]

Just a follow up, as I have been researching on the case of Deborah Joan Farmer. I have found some interesting possible discrepencies in the statement by the "son" and am working to make sure before I post anything. . . loggin on here was how I found that someone had responded to a post on this topic.

If an ADMIN will give permission, I will post the unedited photo of the children.

 

[Betty P]

Just a follow up, as I have been researching on the case of Deborah Joan Farmer. I have found some interesting possible discrepencies in the statement by the "son" and am working to make sure before I post anything. . . loggin on here was how I found that someone had responded to a post on this topic.

If an ADMIN will give permission, I will post the unedited photo of the children.

You can ask a moderator about permission for the photo by clicking on the "Report" link at the bottom of the comment box. You can send a message to the moderators to ask about permission. Hope that helps.

 

[whorton]

If there is no response by this evening, I will send them a message. . thanks!

 

[whorton]

Thanks for your reply. One of the things that strikes me is if the official high school picture of Deborah is actually even her. The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation site admits, they have little information about the case. Where did they get the photo?

Again, I an a bit bothered that none of the reports bother to even mention what town or city she was reported missing from. (my best guess is Midwest city as one of the reports state that she lived there)

The Deborah **** Farmer that is listed on Classmates.com, seems to list a maiden name, that is in the Midwest City '72 year book as a sophmore. That would likely mean she graduated in '74 and if born in '55, she would have been 19. Perhaps she was delayed in HS because she had become pregnant and dropped out to have the child, and then returned to get through HS.

I admit the the girl in the MWC yearbook (with the annotated name of Classmates.com) does not look like the HS photo, but again, do we even know the source of that? What was the source of the two known photos associated with the case listing? We don't know. Did she have any living family? Who reported her missing? What is the story on the two divergent dates reported for her disappearance? Did she actually disappear on the 27th or June 1st?

Unless either the original Missing persons report is missing or so poorly done as to offer no information, we may never know. There is so little to go on, the reports do not even list a maiden name or DOB. .

I tried to access the Ancestory.com page you reference, and even though I have a log in code there, was never able to get past the adverts. Can you share a bit more detail about the information on that page?

When I was looking into this early this morning I did not look into Debbie Brown as I was chasing the whole "Willis" and/or "Farmer" angle, but will look at it this evening. I did notice however, the associated supposed Senior picture did not appear in the '72 Marlow yearbook under any name. I did also notice that there was a younger classmate under the name of Willis in '72, maybe a younger brother?Again, who knows at this point.

I notice that photo looks more like a classic 60's high school Senior photo, as opposed to a 70's photo. I cannot really quantify that statement, but the blond version photo seems to have more of a 60's vibe. Maybe I was just suffering from lack of sleep this morning, but who knows.

This should be renamed the infamous "Rabbit hole case." as about the only thing we know is almost nothing.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Can we narrow down which dam these young people might have died at?

List of dams in LA county:

Category:Dams in Los Angeles County, California - Wikipedia

Of the ones listed, these were built between 1921 and 1951:

Mulholland Dam (1923-1924)
Rindge Dam (1924-1926)
St Francis Dam (1924-1926) (Failed in 1928, Demolished in 1929)
Santa Anita Dam (1924-1927)
Bouquet Canyon Dam (1934)
Hansen Dam (1939-1940) (US Army Corps of Engineers)
Santa Fe Dam (1941-1949) (US Army Corps of Engineers)
Sepulveda Dam (1941-1949) (US Army Corps of Engineers)

Of those 8, I think we should be looking at the 5 pre-war ones. Those are the ones that would have used civilian labour and are most likely to account for 2 kids or teenagers, ie family members of employed labour, mucking about. I'm guessing that site security would have been much tighter at the 3 built by the army just before and during wartime. Also, it seems likely that inventory of explosives would be much more closely controlled during wartime than during peacetime so it seems less likely that dynamite would just have been left lying around during and after construction.

I'm not sure this really gets us any further forward but the speculation is interesting in itself.

The failure of the St Francis Dam is also interesting. I imagine it's well known in the US but for the rest of us it's an interesting read.

St. Francis Dam - Wikipedia

What's particularly interesting is that local farmers and landowners in the Owens Valley carried out a number of what today we would call terrorist acts, dynamiting parts of the nearby aqueduct which carried water from the mountains to Los Angeles so it's clear that at least some local people had access to substantial amounts of explosives.

Does anyone know what would have happened to the remains of the victims in LA county during this time period? Would they have been buried and if so where? Without having access to the bodies (and thus DNA) there's probably no way to push this case forward.

I know this is an old post, but I wanted to point out that there is also Littlerock Damn in L.A. county.