Found Deceased CA - Rachel Nguyen, 20, & Joseph Orbeso, 21, Joshua Tree Nat'l Park, 27 July 2017 #2

[iliketotalk15]

I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm hiking and hear gunshots, the last thing I'm going to do is go and look where it's coming from. My goal is to stay as far away from people shooting as possible. So I don't think that firing a gun would be a good way of getting help. I doubt that many people would go to see where the shots are coming from. So I'm not surprised, that didn't help them.

You're probably right if it was just for the everyday hiker. A couple thoughts, though. For one, they could have been too far gone, delirious or just desperate, to really think about that. The other thing is JO's father apparently knew his son was carrying a gun with him to protect RN from a stalker, so there could be some thought that his dad might think about that and investigate. Hopefully the other searchers were aware he was carrying a gun and might have made a similar thought that it could be him.

 

[wsthrow]

Bit more info on the bandaged wounds, article is from yesterday but it hasn't been posted on here yet

“It was explained to us by the investigators on scene, with the circumstances and positioning of the bodies, that they believe this was a sympathetic murder-suicide,” Son Nguyen, Rachel's uncle, said.

Nguyen offered more insight into what investigators said they found.

“Rachel possibly injured herself sliding down a cliff and Joseph went after her and took care of her,” Nguyen said.

Her T-shirt was wrapped around her head like a bandage.

“They found a tree to provide some shade,” he said, and Joseph had taken his shirt off and put it over her legs, apparently to protect them from the sun and heat.

Rachel appeared to have been in distress due to her head injury and with no water, they reached a point where they wanted to ease their pain, Rachel's uncle said.

“Until you are in the same situation … you don’t know how you would react,” he said.

http://www.desertsun.com/story/news...cide-uncle-says-we-hold-no-grudges/787476001/

 

[thekarmabus]

If there were wrappers , clothing draped over each of them , empty water bottles ... they gave up hope. Perhaps Rachel was hurt in a fall and couldn’t walk.
It might not have been the decision I would have made however I have never been in a situation as such.
It’s saddening. They seem to have been inexperienced hikers. SAR did what they could. I would hope in future the NP system takes measures to ensure trails are well maintained and more signage or markers ( stacked stones ) . He had a gun on trail ... that’s not uncommon.
Being a backpacker I can say that JT is very easy to become disoriented . I have only been lost once in Sedona and luckily was able to walk in a direction I knew where civilization was. I was still off by 2+ miles but found a road.
They Entered the park on days where basically very few were hiking due to the temps . It was a bad choice... that is all.
I feel autopsy reports will show she was hurt beyond travel/hike.


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[whitelilac]

Also noticed this:

They had been planning the trip to Joshua Tree for about a month, initially as a group hike with some friends, but it wound up being just the two of them, he said.

http://www.desertsun.com/story/news/local/2017/10/21/death-hikers-joshua-tree-sympathetic-murder-suicide-uncle-says-we-hold-no-grudges/787476001/

 

[Force Ten]

Bit more info on the bandaged wounds, article is from yesterday but it hasn't been posted on here yet


http://www.desertsun.com/story/news...cide-uncle-says-we-hold-no-grudges/787476001/

Joseph's suicide could have been from the sheer grief and guilt that he got them both into such a situation, not because he was facing imminent death. Just a thought.


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[Infidell]

A LOT of people bring a firearm when hiking. I mean.. what? I’m shocked that people think that indicates anything. They were going out into the wilderness where they would have no cell phone service. Additionally, IME, when someone owns a gun and they don’t frequently have a chance to take it out of it’s safe, they will jump at the chance to bring it along hiking or camping where it may actually be needed.

We have no idea if it was ever fired during the time they were lost. It took this long to find two human bodies... looking for shell casings out there off-trail would be worse than needles in a haystack.

Would I personally bring a gun hiking? Probably not, even somewhere with no cell-service. But my husband absolutely would have at that age. Joseph was just a normal young man, IMO.

Thanks for your thoughts.

First, this is Joshua Tree. I've camped there. There are no bears, and if you think you need a gun for the coyotes, you haven't met our coyotes. So that's not a first choice for me, especially in this state.

Second, bringing a firearm along indicates plenty, when the Sheriff announces the two hikers died in a murder-suicide. I haven't drilled down on Rachel Nguyen, but Joseph's family suggests that she dated at least one "stalker", and that he brought weapon along for her protection. That may be. That may not be. Might be she had a pattern of dating stalkers. I think the most likely scenario is as you describe, but I wouldn't be quite so dismissive.

Third, they were found in some kind of "loving embrace." Maybe it was the tragic circumstances. Maybe it was how Joseph wanted them to be found, whether he planned this scenario or not.

The Sheriff can determine whether a weapon was fired. Casings can be located - they're usually proximate to the body and metal detectors are amazing. Either way, there are reports of shell casings near the situs of the bodies. This may suggest that they tried firing the weapon in order to draw attention to themselves. One poster suggested he would "head the other way" if he / she heard gunshots - but remember they had a command post set up the day after they couple turned up missing. Search-and-rescue would not ignore a gunshot, and at a minimum, would point it up to command for evaluation.

Here's hoping that Joseph was just a normal young man. But this has some hinky in it, so here's hoping as well that the Sheriff's office will conduct a full investigation into his background, and his prior dating habits.

 

[wsthrow]

Second, bringing a firearm along indicates plenty, when the Sheriff announces the two hikers died in a murder-suicide. I haven't drilled down on Rachel Nguyen, but Joseph's family suggests that she dated at least one "stalker", and that he brought weapon along for her protection. That may be. That may not be. Might be she had a pattern of dating stalkers. I think the most likely scenario is as you describe, but I wouldn't be quite so dismissive.

Aside from the info about the supposed stalker angle, honestly going by his social media he seemed like the type who might've taken a gun along simply to feel like a badass. Lots of fairly normal young men like guns and weaponry. A lot of anime (which he was into) features swords and stuff too. On his facebook profile you can see him posing with a sword. He liked edc knives, swords, guns - I felt that was more what they meant when he was described as a "survivalist" by his friends. Rachel herself also seemed to enjoy casual recreational shooting. JMO, there's certainly non-sinister reasons for him to carry. We aren't always the most practical in our youth - they did go hiking in freaking 110+ degrees weather with insufficient water after all.

 

[Capebluff]

A couple of points strike me as odd.

First, who carries a loaded firearm on a dayhike in Joshua Tree? Maybe the security guard thing is the answer, but it's troubling under the circumstances.

And the circumstances are, you're lost in the desert and you likely are aware there's a search going on. Why wouldn't you fire off the weapon to draw the searchers to you?

The only answer to that is, the security guard had just enough ammunition to take Rachel's life and his own. Or that perhaps he did fire off rounds, and kept just enough for the sympathetic murder-suicide angle. In that scenario, one would think there would have been reports of gunfire during the search. I've heard of nothing along those lines.

Which walks me back to the first question. Why did the hiker bring a loaded weapon into the desert on a day hike?

We addressed this question in T1. Have you ever been in JTNP? I have. I wouldn’t chance going there without a weapon & several magazines, just in case. We almost got attacked by a pack of coyotes once.
I’m also a CCW holder & carry a weapon everywhere. Why? Bc it’s my right. Joseph may have had the same mentality.

 

[Infidell]

Capebluff,

As I indicated in the full post you quoted from, yes - I've camped in JT. I brought no weapons, it never occurred to me to do so. My point is, It's Joshua Tree, it's not Glacier - so my remarks are confined to the context of _this_ situation.

Delighted you addressed this question in T1. Sounds like it wasn't resolved, or perhaps it hadn't yet surfaced that Joseph exercised his 2nd Amendment right by committing homicide, then suicide. So I assume you're not offended by re-visiting the question.

Last, if it makes any difference to you, I'm an ardent 2nd Amendment supporter. So I support your right. I don't support premeditated murder, and I think it's fair to have questions about why a weapon was taken out on a simple day-hike, then used later in a murder suicide under circumstances that strike me as questionable.

Cheers -

Infidell

 

[yukoncornelius]

Was it really 114 degrees?

https://m.accuweather.com/en/us/joshua-tree-ca/92252/july-weather/2154397

This shows 101 on the 27th of July which is still very hot, don't get me wrong. But it's a far cry from 114.

Also, from youtube videos of the area of the park where they went hiking, it looks like there are areas of large rock formations which could provide shade.

 

[Infidell]

Aside from the info about the supposed stalker angle, honestly going by his social media he seemed like the type who might've taken a gun along simply to feel like a badass. Lots of fairly normal young men like guns and weaponry. A lot of anime (which he was into) features swords and stuff too. On his facebook profile you can see him posing with a sword. He liked edc knives, swords, guns - I felt that was more what they meant when he was described as a "survivalist" by his friends. Rachel herself also seemed to enjoy casual recreational shooting. JMO, there's certainly non-sinister reasons for him to carry. We aren't always the most practical in our youth - they did go hiking in freaking 110+ degrees weather with insufficient water after all.

Thanks for this. If that's not a heart-wrenching series of photos, then nothing is heart-wrenching.

 

[Infidell]

Going national. WaPo posted up this article 3 hours ago.

 

[Capebluff]

Capebluff,


Delighted you addressed this question in T1. Sounds like it wasn't resolved, or perhaps it hadn't yet surfaced that Joseph exercised his 2nd Amendment right by committing homicide, then suicide.
So I assume you're not offended by re-visiting the question.

RS/BBM

I’m unsure what you mean using the term ‘resolved’.
It’s my opinion that LE/ME would be the ones to provide resolute answers-not myself, nor others here in this thread, as we’ve been provided only a small amount of information regarding this case & subsequent findings.

<modsnip>

Lastly, the posts concerning Joseph carrying a firearm in JTNP were initiated by the findings/reporting from LE via MSM that both had gunshot wounds & that Joseph had first shot Rachel & then himself. Discussion of a firearm was never discussed prior to said findings.

 

[cvaldez1975]

Zero rain, CA rarely gets any rain in the summer, rain comes in the fall and winter.
There could have been enough wind to blow tracks from the sand.
The problem with the maze, even if you find the trail, unless you have a gps or compass, you may have a hard time knowing which direction to go.

I thought there was rain and flash flood around that time. When they originally went missing, I thought there was talk of them getting caught ina flash flood.


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[Capebluff]

Was it really 114 degrees?

https://m.accuweather.com/en/us/joshua-tree-ca/92252/july-weather/2154397

This shows 101 on the 27th of July which is still very hot, don't get me wrong. But it's a far cry from 114.

Also, from youtube videos of the area of the park where they went hiking, it looks like there are areas of large rock formations which could provide shade.

CA desert temps are much different than any other place I’ve been in the US. It lacks humidity & is extremely dry.

I know for me personally, whether 101, 114 or even 90+ degrees, I’d likely succumb to the temps &/or lack of water very quickly. [emoji26]

 

[cvaldez1975]

Bit more info on the bandaged wounds, article is from yesterday but it hasn't been posted on here yet


http://www.desertsun.com/story/news...cide-uncle-says-we-hold-no-grudges/787476001/

This article puts that to rest for me. How awful. She was probably scraped up as well as hit her head. Poor Rachel [emoji30]&#10084;&#65039;


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[Elainera]

I thought there was rain and flash flood around that time. When they originally went missing, I thought there was talk of them getting caught ina flash flood.


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There were rain and flash floods but it was never determined whether they happened in the region R&J were in, as it was not known where exactly they were. Not all of the park got rain.

 

[cvaldez1975]

Was it really 114 degrees?

https://m.accuweather.com/en/us/joshua-tree-ca/92252/july-weather/2154397

This shows 101 on the 27th of July which is still very hot, don't get me wrong. But it's a far cry from 114.

Also, from youtube videos of the area of the park where they went hiking, it looks like there are areas of large rock formations which could provide shade.

In that hear shade doesn't help. Once my husband and I were driving in this area (JTNP) back from Vegas and it was 116 we were in our car with the AC full blast and we still stuck to the seats and were miserable. I can't even imagine having been outside the car


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[yukoncornelius]

This article puts that to rest for me. How awful. She was probably scraped up as well as hit her head. Poor Rachel [emoji30]&#10084;&#65039;


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She could have been pushed for all we know. Even after the investigation is complete, we may never know what really happened.

 

[Cryptic]

Aside from the info about the supposed stalker angle, honestly going by his social media he seemed like the type who might've taken a gun along simply to feel like a badass.

Very pragmatic and very well said.