Cadaver dog hit on scent in DBs bedroom

[Oriah]

BBM
But we don't know what LE is doing. I believe they are following up on leads and looking at others ,as well as the parents.
I just don't fall for the "bad cops just want an arrest". This is about a baby that might still be alive. This is a national case with FBI involvement.

Not directed at you,specifically JohnBull,but I kinda wonder where all distrust and dislike of LE is coming from :waitasec: I'm always amazed at the amount of work they put into a case and time it takes them to get the details.
If my child goes missing (and he has,which is why we have a service dog that also tracks ) I'm calling 911. I would expect to be questioned and for them to be suspicious. But I also believe they will help find my child.

In the Anthony case a second dog was brought in and it sounded like that was a typical way to verify a hit or consider it might be a false positive.
It really only becomes an issue if the hit is used in court during a trial.
LE knows better than anyone that the cadaver dog hit in DB's room could be from a former occupant.They aren't done yet.

BBM:
I wonder this as well (not just in Lisa's case- but others as well.)

(Oh and I hope you never have need for your service dog to track- but glad you have him, in case you do. )

 

[Eileen730]

I have a question?

If someone is burried alive a cadaver dog does not get the scent correct?

Now after that person dies will the dog hit or not? Would it be benifical to take the dogs back and search again?

Little Jesicca Lundsford was right there the entire time very very close to home.

 

[josie1986]

i would assume so because it would be a dead body but your better off posting this in the Q&A thread and sarx or oriah will give a better answer

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[vlpate]

About the only thing the dog hit really tells them is that (assuming the dogs are properly trained, etc.) decomposing human tissue of some sort was on the carpet in the bedroom. They should take that for what it's worth. If it leads them to neglect every possibility other than that the child was murdered in the house, that's very wrongheaded, in my opinion.

They've pursued over 1,000 leads and resolved over 900. Is there a lead they haven't pursued? I have seen them pursue every lead that's been made public, and some we didn't know about.

The defense team's spin is always aimed squarely at LE when the parents are under scrutiny and don't want to be interviewed. Don't believe the hype!

 

[Darcyline]

I am a little confused by the cynicism against LE as well. Now, I know LE can make mistakes or get off-track (like every human on the planet) and I also know that even the best trained dog may have some sort of false positive or make a mistake as well. There is always a margin of error in anything.
However, I have heard people claiming the dogs were not trained at all or that they borderline abused the dog by forcing the dog to work for almost an entire day with no breaks or food or water and that is why a hit was made. At the very least, I am giving LE and the dogs the benefit of the doubt on those. I do think the dog (or dogs) used were trained. I also do not think for a second that they were abused into making a hit. Those two assumptions seem absolutely bizarre to me.
I have also seen LE aggressively track down every lead possible-they were immediately all over Jersey and the neighbor before we even knew about it, they were DNA swabbing the teen, they were all over the neighbor and clearing literally hundreds of leads and tips outside of the parents. It seems strange to me to make the allegation that they are only focused on the parents and refuse to look at other leads knowing all of this?
I wonder where the cynicism and almost hostility toward LE comes from. Is it just a general dislike of LE in general? Do we have evidence that they are incompetent and/or did not even train the dogs they used to search the property? Is the FBI complicit in this gross incompetence?

I tend to trust LE and the dogs. Now, trust to me means they are trained, they are doing their best, and they haven't been grossly negligent or deliberately corrupt. However, I also know that everything under the sun except God or Jesus can make mistakes so that is always a possibility.

For me, I think the dogs were extremely highly trained and it is hard for me to just accept a false positive or a huge mistake of some sort like smelling menstrual blood (which some people have theorized). It is one of the sticking points for me in accepting a random stranger abduction. Of course, I would need more evidence which I am hoping LE has to make a concrete judgement. If it turns out LE was grossly incompetent in any way I will be absolutely crushed that a baby might have suffered because of it. Maybe I am just not cynical enough yet.

 

[JohnBull]

They've pursued over 1,000 leads and resolved over 900. Is there a lead they haven't pursued? I have seen them pursue every lead that's been made public, and some we didn't know about.

The defense team's spin is always aimed squarely at LE when the parents are under scrutiny and don't want to be interviewed. Don't believe the hype!

The operative word is "if." "If it leads them to neglect every possibility other than that the child was murdered in the house ...." Let's hope it doesn't.

 

[Tek2]

Looking at the "theories" thread, it's amazing how many people completely dismiss the cadaver dog hit like it means nothing. Also amazes me how people have short term memory they seem to forget all of the inconsistencies, lies and omissions in DB's story, "the phones don't call out" (one did), the changes in timeline, the lack of cooperation with police, the FAILED polygraph, the alleged phone number on DB's hand, putting the boys in her bedrooom with her, (So she could keep an eye on THEM? I'm sure it was AFTER midnight), and her supposed "black out". I think it's entirely possible DB was doing meth and didn't fall asleep AT ALL, just faked it for JI because the baby was missing. Most likely JI has no idea what has really happened. and DB knows EXACTLY what happened.

 

[Oriah]

I am a little confused by the cynicism against LE as well. Now, I know LE can make mistakes or get off-track (like every human on the planet) and I also know that even the best trained dog may have some sort of false positive or make a mistake as well. There is always a margin of error in anything.
However, I have heard people claiming the dogs were not trained at all or that they borderline abused the dog by forcing the dog to work for almost an entire day with no breaks or food or water and that is why a hit was made. At the very least, I am giving LE and the dogs the benefit of the doubt on those. I do think the dog (or dogs) used were trained. I also do not think for a second that they were abused into making a hit. Those two assumptions seem absolutely bizarre to me.
I have also seen LE aggressively track down every lead possible-they were immediately all over Jersey and the neighbor before we even knew about it, they were DNA swabbing the teen, they were all over the neighbor and clearing literally hundreds of leads and tips outside of the parents. It seems strange to me to make the allegation that they are only focused on the parents and refuse to look at other leads knowing all of this?
I wonder where the cynicism and almost hostility toward LE comes from. Is it just a general dislike of LE in general? Do we have evidence that they are incompetent and/or did not even train the dogs they used to search the property? Is the FBI complicit in this gross incompetence?

I tend to trust LE and the dogs. Now, trust to me means they are trained, they are doing their best, and they haven't been grossly negligent or deliberately corrupt. However, I also know that everything under the sun except God or Jesus can make mistakes so that is always a possibility.

For me, I think the dogs were extremely highly trained and it is hard for me to just accept a false positive or a huge mistake of some sort like smelling menstrual blood (which some people have theorized). It is one of the sticking points for me in accepting a random stranger abduction. Of course, I would need more evidence which I am hoping LE has to make a concrete judgement. If it turns out LE was grossly incompetent in any way I will be absolutely crushed that a baby might have suffered because of it. Maybe I am just not cynical enough yet.

BBM:
Wow. Do you mind me asking where you heard/read this?
I'd be interested to know what trainers/handlers are stating this.
TIA.

 

[Oriah]

I have a question?

If someone is burried alive a cadaver dog does not get the scent correct?

Now after that person dies will the dog hit or not? Would it be benifical to take the dogs back and search again?

Little Jesicca Lundsford was right there the entire time very very close to home.

Oh boy. I'm not sure I want to tackle this one. Maybe sarx will pop in and help.

First, if someone is buried alive, it's very likely they are not going to live for long past burial.
Then depending upon the container used (if there is one), the substrate, and depth/height the individual is buried in, if the individual incurred injuries that may produce human remains scent, if they are cross-trained vs single discipline dogs only- then... yes or no. I know that's not very helpful, but there are many, many factors in an equation like that.

Imvho, it is always useful to bring dogs back out, if you have a reasonable idea of a searchable grid where human remains may be located.

HTH, but I know probably not much.

 

[Abby Normal]

I doubt that's true about the dogs being mistreated. What I read in academic files portrays it as a game of sorts. Equivalent to a family dog's game of "find the tennis ball". Search and reward. Besides, I've never met a police dog handler who didn't love his dog more than his family. I don't believe for a minute they were overworked or mistreated.

 

[Abby Normal]

Looking at the "theories" thread, it's amazing how many people completely dismiss the cadaver dog hit like it means nothing. Also amazes me how people have short term memory they seem to forget all of the inconsistencies, lies and omissions in DB's story, "the phones don't call out" (one did), the changes in timeline, the lack of cooperation with police, the FAILED polygraph, the alleged phone number on DB's hand, putting the boys in her bedrooom with her, (So she could keep an eye on THEM? I'm sure it was AFTER midnight), and her supposed "black out". I think it's entirely possible DB was doing meth and didn't fall asleep AT ALL, just faked it for JI because the baby was missing. Most likely JI has no idea what has really happened. and DB knows EXACTLY what happened.

Not completely dismissing it, they are just waiting for confirmation of a 2nd hit or forensics confirming the hit. That is the scientific thing to do, as the "hits" are not a 99.9% precise science as with, say, DNA.

 

[Oriah]

I doubt that's true about the dogs being mistreated. What I read in academic files portrays it as a game of sorts. Equivalent to a family dog's game of "find the tennis ball". Search and reward. Besides, I've never met a police dog handler who didn't love his dog more than his family. I don't believe for a minute they were overworked or mistreated.

I doubt it as well. Would just like to see who's stating it, cause it isn't any handler we know.

That's the kind of stuff that media grabs onto and starts spinning when they don't have a clue what they're talking about- thus swaying public opinion. Makes me angry.

 

[sarx]

I'm not aware of any handlers/trainers making these claims on this case, but I could have missed it. I know there was speculation early on during the searches about the length of time the dogs worked because people saw dogs there and saw that the search went on for 17 hrs and somehow turned that into the dogs worked for 17 hours (well, "dogs" may very well have worked for 17 hours straight, the key there is the plural).

In my experience dogs who are pushed into doing any work don't do very well at it. It is a game and it is a job. Working dogs are very different from house dogs. One could write a book on this subject.

In regards to the buried alive, I gotta say, outside of crime scene shows I've never heard of or known anyone who has worked a case like this, I certainly haven't. I suppose that if an otherwise healthy person was stuffed into some box with an oxygen tank so they could stay alive and buried and the dog was only trained in HRD that they could be missed.

 

[Oriah]

Not completely dismissing it, they are just waiting for confirmation of a 2nd hit or forensics confirming the hit. That is the scientific thing to do, as the "hits" are not a 99.9% precise science as with, say, DNA.

Actually, forensics very often 'confirm' an HRD dogs' accurate alert.

 

[Oriah]

I'm not aware of any handlers/trainers making these claims on this case, but I could have missed it. I know there was speculation early on during the searches about the length of time the dogs worked because people saw dogs there and saw that the search went on for 17 hrs and somehow turned that into the dogs worked for 17 hours (well, "dogs" may very well have worked for 17 hours straight, the key there is the plural).

In my experience dogs who are pushed into doing any work don't do very well at it. It is a game and it is a job. Working dogs are very different from house dogs. One could write a book on this subject.

In regards to the buried alive, I gotta say, outside of crime scene shows I've never heard of or known anyone who has worked a case like this, I certainly haven't. I suppose that if an otherwise healthy person was stuffed into some box with an oxygen tank so they could stay alive and buried and the dog was only trained in HRD that they could be missed.

I was trying to go at it from a disaster situation, where victims are often buried alive... :truce:

 

[Abby Normal]

Actually, forensics very often 'confirm' an HRD dogs' accurate alert.

umm... that's my point

 

[sarx]

I was trying to go at it from a disaster situation, where victims are often buried alive... :truce:

LOL, yeah, and I was trying to go from a single discipline HRD only aspect of "nope, nobody dead here" angle.
I think it's yet another perfect example of, without knowing what dogs were brought in and what they were trained in, it is very hard to speculate! Also opens up the whole cross training can o worms and all the pluses and minuses of it.

 

[Oriah]

LOL, yeah, and I was trying to go from a single discipline HRD only aspect of "nope, nobody dead here" angle.
I think it's yet another perfect example of, without knowing what dogs were brought in and what they were trained in, it is very hard to speculate! Also opens up the whole cross training can o worms and all the pluses and minuses of it.

Agreed. I almost typed out yet another lame Oriah analogy. And then I realized.... oh, the cross-training. Better shut up now.

So I did.

 

[sarx]

Agreed. I almost typed out yet another lame Oriah analogy. And then I realized.... oh, the cross-training. Better shut up now.

So I did.

Oh, but I love the Oriah analogies. Will this one include tuna, nuggets or Walmart? Oooh, maybe all 3! :great: Oh, it's gonna be a long week. Luv ya!

 

[Oriah]

Oh, but I love the Oriah analogies. Will this one include tuna, nuggets or Walmart? Oooh, maybe all 3! :great: Oh, it's gonna be a long week. Luv ya!

Actually it was a McDonalds hamburger. You know, that poor guy who accidentally chopped off his two fingers in his woodshop while eating his burger, then passed out next to the circular saw, then came around but was disoriented and wandered out into the woods? Hamburger on ground next to, err, fingers.

Thank god, the poor old guy was ok in the end. Argument for cross-training, for sure.

(Yeah, I know. I get all the good ones.)