Cadaver dog hit on scent in DBs bedroom

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At Friday evening's vigil, Lisa's aunt, Ashley Irwin, dismissed the "hit" as being anything substantial but wouldn't elaborate.

"I don't think much of it. I know what's going on regarding that but that's not something I can comment on," she said.
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http://www.kctv5.com/story/15768295/family-of-lisa-irwin

I have to wonder how, if they got two separate "hits", they have not ordered the parents in for questioning. I don't know how long it takes to run tests on the things they took from the home, but surely it's complete by now?! If anything was suspicious, wouldn't the parents be 'picked up' for questioning?? And how weird is that statement from Ashley?

I have always thought mom and dad were not responsible for BL being missing, and to be honest, the more info that comes out (including messed up timelines) and the fact they don't seem to be cooperating with police (on LE's terms) almost makes me believe them more. IF they are innocent, then most anything they say or do or change doesn't seem odd to them ~ kwim??
 
wvjules said:
They did prior to the search warrant.
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True. If the parents of a missing child refused to allow police to search the property where the abduction reportedly took place, do you believe this search warrant would be a difficult thing for LE to get?
 
sarx said:
I think it's also important to note the wording in the affidavit of:
"each search has recovered evidence to further progress the investigation"
and
"the items and evidence recovered as of this date supports the need"

This says to me that they had much much more than just the dog hits to go on. I think the defense is trying very hard to stir it all up with the dogs so they can sweep everything else quietly under the rug....

link to affidavit
http://media2.nbcactionnews.com/NWT/pdf/20111021_irwinwarrant.pdf
page 5 bottom
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I wanted to bring this post by sarx front and center this morning, for those who believe the cadaver dog hit may have been false. I understand this is no guarantee that the hit was a positive hit, but that's where I'm putting my money. Cadaver dogs exist for a reason. They are trained to pick up the scent of human remains.
 
natsound said:
I wanted to bring this post by sarx front and center this morning, for those who believe the cadaver dog hit may have been false. I understand this is no guarantee that the hit was a positive hit, but that's where I'm putting my money. Cadaver dogs exist for a reason. They are trained to pick up the scent of human remains.
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I also heard an interview with a cadaver dog trainer say that the dogs would hit on blood. So, couldn't there have been a cut, or an injury to one of the children other than Lisa that the dogs were hitting on? Maybe that is why they want DNA from the boys. jw
 
mck16 said:
I also heard an interview with a cadaver dog trainer say that the dogs would hit on blood. So, couldn't there have been a cut, or an injury to one of the children other than Lisa that the dogs were hitting on? Maybe that is why they want DNA from the boys. jw
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Cadaver dogs are not trained to hit on blood, unless it's from a dead body. If they were, they would always hit in a house, I would think. And what good use would they be?

Can you post a link for this information? In the meantime, I'm going to try to get some clarity from sarx. If we shouldn't put weight on the cadaver dog hit, then I want to know for sure. I'm thinking it's very significant.
 
Again, I feel it is very important to remember that dogs are tools, much like a blue light or luminol or finger print powder. They are there to uncover things that might not be found otherwise. Can things be missed while using any of these tools? Yes. Can things look like something that it's not using any of these tools? Yes. Are these tools only as good as those that are using and have trained with them? Yes. Dogs become even more complicated because they are a second living being that must also be "read" as they can't talk for themselves.
I am not discounting what the dogs did in any way, but I think it is important to understand that they are just one small part of this investigation and while an important part they are not the only part, not by a long shot.
 
natsound said:
Cadaver dogs are not trained to hit on blood, unless it's from a dead body. If they were, they would always hit in a house, I would think. And what good use would they be?

Can you post a link for this information? In the meantime, I'm going to try to get some clarity from sarx. If we shouldn't put weight on the cadaver dog hit, then I want to know for sure. I'm thinking it's very significant.
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No, I cannot provide a link. It was on the VP (HLN) show and I was listening to it as I was driving home. It was the day after the reported hit in DB's bedroom.

But, you can Google it and you will see all kinds of information and most of it does include blood that the dogs can hit on. Please check with sarx as I would like to know myself for sure. thanks.
 
Blood is a much tougher one than the likes of semen, urine, feces, spit, vomit, menstrual blood, hair etc. All of the latter SHOULD be a no brainer, though lately I am seeing a lot of "experts" saying that their dogs will hit on all of these things along with a myriad of other things. The problem here lies in that IMO this makes these dogs pretty much worthless, I mean what house, especially with kids doesn't have some if not all of that on the carpets at some level?

Blood really gets down to just how specific they have been trained. There are handlers out there that have trained their dogs to differentiate blood from the living vs from the deceased. Dogs have a sense of smell that we cannot even begin to really comprehend. Even working with them it continues to amaze me. Dogs are being used to find endangered species of plants and animals(via fecal matter). They can find 700 year old remains buried several feet down. They can find cancer before most modern equipment can. They can match DNA. What they can do is pretty much only limited to what we are capable of training them to do.

So, unfortunately it's not what "dogs can do" but it's what people can or are willing to or know how to train them for that comes into play. And pride gets in the way often so a handler will use a blanket statement instead of just admitting that their dog can't do it.
 
mck16 said:
No, I cannot provide a link. It was on the VP (HLN) show and I was listening to it as I was driving home. It was the day after the reported hit in DB's bedroom.

But, you can Google it and you will see all kinds of information and most of it does include blood that the dogs can hit on. Please check with sarx as I would like to know myself for sure. thanks.
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I did google it and came up empty-handed.
 
natsound said:
Cadaver dogs are not trained to hit on blood, unless it's from a dead body. If they were, they would always hit in a house, I would think. And what good use would they be?

Can you post a link for this information? In the meantime, I'm going to try to get some clarity from sarx. If we shouldn't put weight on the cadaver dog hit, then I want to know for sure. I'm thinking it's very significant.
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Go to the cadaver dog QA thread, go straight to page 7. It is already confirmed by our experts. They are trained to hit on blood. It is a biological human remain and releases the same gases as other human remains upon decamp. Blood decomps. I have read, but not confirmed with Oriah and Sarx, that semen also contains cells that decamp once it leaves the body. It's an easy enough topic to research- lots of great info out there. And not from the defense's silly "toenail" references.
 
sarx said:
Blood is a much tougher one than the likes of semen, urine, feces, spit, vomit, menstrual blood, hair etc. All of the latter SHOULD be a no brainer, though lately I am seeing a lot of "experts" saying that their dogs will hit on all of these things along with a myriad of other things. The problem here lies in that IMO this makes these dogs pretty much worthless, I mean what house, especially with kids doesn't have some if not all of that on the carpets at some level?

Blood really gets down to just how specific they have been trained. There are handlers out there that have trained their dogs to differentiate blood from the living vs from the deceased. Dogs have a sense of smell that we cannot even begin to really comprehend. Even working with them it continues to amaze me. Dogs are being used to find endangered species of plants and animals(via fecal matter). They can find 700 year old remains buried several feet down. They can find cancer before most modern equipment can. They can match DNA. What they can do is pretty much only limited to what we are capable of training them to do.

So, unfortunately it's not what "dogs can do" but it's what people can or are willing to or know how to train them for that comes into play. And pride gets in the way often so a handler will use a blanket statement instead of just admitting that their dog can't do it.
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bbm

What an interesting perspective. Thank you so much for sharing... I think we can all learn something from you.
 
Abby Normal said:
Go to the cadaver dog QA thread, go straight to page 7. It is already confirmed by our experts. They are trained to hit on blood. It is a biological human remain and releases the same gases as other human remains upon decamp. Blood decomps. I have read, but not confirmed with Oriah and Sarx, that semen also contains cells that decamp once it leaves the body. It's an easy enough topic to research- lots of great info out there. And not from the defense's silly "toenail" references.
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See post #130 in this thread re: the semen, and the blood. If dogs were trained to hit on just any old blood, they would hit in everyone's house, and be of no use.
 
A word of caution while researching.... Just because it's out there doesn't make it true. Like any topic, there is a lot of BAD information out there, A LOT. And just because you can find it in 3 separate places doesn't make it true either.

I posted this on another thread, but I think it merits bringing over here and pondering...


The hrd issue is another thread, but briefly semen and blood (non-menstrual) are "human remains" and decompose as such.

I need to hear 2nd hit and forensics of that "area" to be convinced.

So by that thought process then, would feces, urine, saliva, hair, nails, sweat, vomit and shedding sking all be "human remains"?
 
Just a hit in the bedroom?? If so thats pretty specific, In a house with 3 children and 2 adults , someone at one time has either puked, pooped , spit, blowed thier noise, bled at any one place in that house, would a dog hit on pretty much all those areas , I believe someone died in that bedroom, may or may not have been baby Lisa, JMO
 
It's also important to note that I think the vast majority of "cadaver dogs" you read about and hear about out there have been trained to find just that, a body. They are looking for that body in the woods, a shallow grave, etc. They may not have had the in depth training that brings them into the HRD field, let alone into a more forensic world. When a dog/handler is looking for a body, then hits on other bodily fluids really aren't going to matter to them because they can obviously look and say "nope, no body here" keep moving. It's a much faster training process, though very limited in the scope of what they can do.
 
From what I read, Sarx, it has to do with live human cells. Regardless, the only thing I stated definitively was that they can hit on blood, and I got that info from the thread here.

Are you suggesting that that one hit is 99.9% definitive? Because if you can tell me that, I will trust you- being an expert. But if you can't, then me stating we should have a 2nd hit or forensics is not an irresponsible opinion.
 
The research I did was academic articles from school, with the help of another graduate student who is a biology major. I wasn't floating around the internets, I know better that.
 
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