Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #10

[otto]

Thanks Otto. Again we do not KNOW. He has been charged with murder but never convicted before of a violent crime. I have no doubt that he is guilty but my assertions are about what we think versus what we know. I maintain that we know very little.

The suspect has not been convicted of a violent crime, but he is now charged with committing a violent crime - perhaps one of the most violent crimes in the city's history. Whatever happened in the Parkhill home involved violence; it was not a soft kill.

When Josh Lall stabbed his tenant, his two young daughters, his wife, and himself, police used the word "violence" in describing the scene.

"Yesterday, Insp. Slater refused comment on whether either a weapon or suicide note was found at the crime scene. The bodies showed "obvious signs of violence," he said, noting only that the scene was "gruesome" for first responders."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...her-in-grisly-calgary-killings/article673740/

The difference between this case, and that case, is that in this case police had to have hope that perhaps one of the three victims survived, so they did not describe the scene as "gruesome", but I suspect that it was.

 

[puppyraiser]

This post might be better suited for the Missing Edmonton Women thread but want to catch otto's attention here.

Hey otto, wonder if you'd be interested in putting your awesome mapping skills to work once more? Could/would you plot last seen location of missing Albertans from 2000-2014 and any locations of found remains. Would be interesting to see if there is a trend in locations- i.e. forested land, retention ponds, back roads. Maybe a BC map too for the years between 1992-1999? Not that I think DG is responsible for all the Highway of Tears and Missing Edmonton women but there has to be something in his past that would help us understand how he could kill an innocent child instead of letting that child go to safety, when his issue was supposedly with the grandparent(s).

 

[bakerlady]

I wonder too. I listened to that audio very carefully 2years ago because the "accent" stuck out to me. The guy said "absolutely" with his own particular vernacular and he said it a couple of times, as though it were a word he used often ...to me the voice didn't sound familiar in the slightest, but the way the man said "absolutely" sounded very "rural central Alberta"... It had a twang in it I have heard often from around Calgary, Red Deer, Panoka
ect...

He also seems to have an extremely creepy, Freudian slip when he said they are going "South" of Beaumont and then immediately changed it to "North" of Beaumont.

Here's the link again so people don't have to go back in time:

http://www.kare.ca

It would be very weird if someone recognized it as DG... No one in the public has really heard him speak, but for a few words to reporters here and there...

I listened to the audio enough times that I believe if I ever heard someone say "absolutely", just the right way, I would recognize the voice from the tape...because it sounds Albertan IMO.

Veering a little bit off topic here but how did that conversation get recorded? Are all cell phone conversations recorded and able to be retrieved? I am so confused about this. Was that an actual phone call that someone else made to her and they were silent on the other end of the line? I just don't get it.

 

[bakerlady]

The suspect has not been convicted of a violent crime, but he is now charged with committing a violent crime - perhaps one of the most violent crimes in the city's history. Whatever happened in the Parkhill home involved violence; it was not a soft kill.

When Josh Lall stabbed his tenant, his two young daughters, his wife, and himself, police used the word "violence" in describing the scene.

"Yesterday, Insp. Slater refused comment on whether either a weapon or suicide note was found at the crime scene. The bodies showed "obvious signs of violence," he said, noting only that the scene was "gruesome" for first responders."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...her-in-grisly-calgary-killings/article673740/

The difference between this case, and that case, is that in this case police had to have hope that perhaps one of the three victims survived, so they did not describe the scene as "gruesome", but I suspect that it was.

IMO the term medical distress was carefully chosen. If it were particularly gruesome I might think it would say 'in grave danger' or 'seriously injured'. IMO medical distress hints at being injured and perhaps some blood found but not enough to cause death. IMO they were not killed in the home. I think they were tied up and forced into the truck and forced to walk to their resting place.

 

[otto]

(BBM)

Or vice versa.

Maybe the privacy he has on the farm to do whatever it is he does is more important than money.

Given that there are two children in the family, there's probably an assumption that each will get half of the property.

In the District of Rockyview, the annual property taxes are currently, probably around $8000-10,000. If the land is subdivided into two 20 acre parcels, the annual property taxes will be about $6-7000 each. If the property is annexed before it is subdivided, the property taxes remain the same even after the property is annexed. There is a cost of about $100,000 to subdivide the property. If the property is subdivided after it is annexed, each parcel will be taxed according to city tax values, and I can't even imagine what the annual property taxes will be, but it could be an outrageous amount. That means that, if the property is not subdivide before it is annexed, the best (and perhaps only) option is to sell the land and split the cash.

Essentially, not subdividing prior to annexation means that when the property is divided (as in settling an estate), unless each of the Garland siblings can come up with $10-20k (or more) in annual property taxes, or one buys out the other, their only option is to sell. I think that the suspect would be against selling the property, as the farm is his home and livelihood. His sister, on the other hand, might prefer to liquidate and take the $2-3 million representing half the value of the property.

Long story short, it is in the suspect's best interest to see the property subdivided prior to annexation, it may be in his siblings best interest to see the property remain intact and to liquidate ASAP. A larger parcel (40, rather than 20 acres) could mean a higher price per acre, meaning, keeping the parcel intact means more cash for 20 acres. The property was recently annexed by Airdrie. We don't know if it was subdivided (probably not). If not, the suspect could have anger towards his sister and, if he believes that she was influenced by her father in law, then he would have a lot of anger towards him, as it means that when the estate is divided, he will receive a lump sum and have to find a new way of life. In fact, under the circumstances, it is highly likely that his sister will now receive the entire estate.

http://www.rockyview.ca/

 

[otto]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...-obrien-amber-alert-and-missing-grandparents/

IMO signs of a violent struggle is stuff knocked about in the home, chairs and tables turned over, lamps on the ground, etc.

IMO the taken forcibly and medical distress is the drag marks in the driveway.

IMO visiting prostitutes would tie in well with my assumptions regarding DG's character and lifestyle choices. Impulsive sexual behavior and drug use and violence seem to often go hand in hand. I don't think he was asexual, just a weirdo who never had luck with women. There are tons of guys like that.

I am going to assume DG had a computer and it was taken and forensically analyzed, which takes time. There could have been photos which would have confirmed death.

When LE says they want to investigate him for other violent crimes it makes me think he had a bunch of creepy stuff in his room at home and on his computer like newspaper clippings and books and pictures.

DG was seen by PG and AL(jr) last Thanksgiving. I wonder if this was at DG's parent's home. If it was he would not have to be invited because he lived there. If it was not DG's parents home then it was somewhere where someone would have to invite him over. So that would make me think he was at least respected and considered part of the family rather than being shunned. I get the feeling DG was just extremely shy and timid and awkward but not threatening.

It seems to me that using meth or other drugs could be his escape, it would loosen him up and give him the confidence to approach people in a somewhat normal manner. I think IF he met prostitutes that he would have done so under the influence....

Everything here is JMO!

Police have used the phrase "signs of violence" to describe a scene where five victims, including pre-schoolers, have been violently, brutally stabbed to death. I don't believe they would use the term "violent" to describe a scene where the furniture was out of order.

 

[otto]

I think the word struggle came from when the cops were saying that the three did not leave on their own will. One time i think they said they did not leave without a struggle, not meaning there was a struggle meaning they did not leave willingly. IMO

Exactly. Police connect "violent crime" with "medical distress".

"“A violent crime occurred in that residence,” he said. “Based on the evidence, I would say that somebody would be in medical distress.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ing-alberta-boy-grandparents/article19463983/

 

[PrincessButtercup]

Given that there are two children in the family, there's probably an assumption that each will get half of the property.

In the District of Rockyview, the annual property taxes are currently, probably around $8000-10,000. If the land is subdivided into two 20 acre parcels, the annual property taxes will be about $6-7000 each. If the property is annexed before it is subdivided, the property taxes remain the same even after the property is annexed. There is a cost of about $100,000 to subdivide the property. If the property is subdivided after it is annexed, each parcel will be taxed according to city tax values, and I can't even imagine what the annual property taxes will be, but it could be an outrageous amount. That means that, if the property is not subdivide before it is annexed, the best (and perhaps only) option is to sell the land and split the cash.

Essentially, not subdividing prior to annexation means that when the property is divided (as in settling an estate), unless each of the Garland siblings can come up with $10-20k (or more) in annual property taxes, or one buys out the other, their only option is to sell. I think that the suspect would be against selling the property, as the farm is his home and livelihood. His sister, on the other hand, might prefer to liquidate and take the $2-3 million representing half the value of the property.

Long story short, it is in the suspect's best interest to see the property subdivided prior to annexation, it may be in his siblings best interest to see the property remain intact and to liquidate ASAP. A larger parcel (40, rather than 20 acres) could mean a higher price per acre, meaning, keeping the parcel intact means more cash for 20 acres. The property was recently annexed by Airdrie. We don't know if it was subdivided (probably not). If not, the suspect could have anger towards his sister and, if he believes that she was influenced by her father in law, then he would have a lot of anger towards him, as it means that when the estate is divided, he will receive a lump sum and have to find a new way of life. In fact, under the circumstances, it is highly likely that his sister will now receive the entire estate.

http://www.rockyview.ca/

Then again we don't know the parents financial position ... if they had other assets they could have left those to PG and the farm to DG .... there could have been some arrangement made for him to maintain and work the property for the parents as they have gotten older in exchange for inheriting the property ... heck they might be leaving the whole thing to the church. It's all speculation at this point.

 

[otto]

Thank you for this post/link... I vaguely remember that another poster in one of the earlier threads (pre arrest/murder charges)had posted a link from project Kare with a description of the Edmonton serial killer. I can't help but notice it was the exact same description!

Would anyone with greater WS experience be able to retrieve that link?

I find it interesting that Calgary police would have linked Sharene to the Edmonton serial killer (by posting the project Kare description of the vehicle), but not inform the citizens of Calgary that project Kare was involved. Looks like LE has known a lot more than they let on to, in terms of the "prostitute/aboriginal murders" or possible serial killer.

That is the description that was given for the serial murderer in the Edmonton area in 2005. Tom Svekla was arrested in 2006 for several of the murders.

 

[otto]

This post might be better suited for the Missing Edmonton Women thread but want to catch otto's attention here.

Hey otto, wonder if you'd be interested in putting your awesome mapping skills to work once more? Could/would you plot last seen location of missing Albertans from 2000-2014 and any locations of found remains. Would be interesting to see if there is a trend in locations- i.e. forested land, retention ponds, back roads. Maybe a BC map too for the years between 1992-1999? Not that I think DG is responsible for all the Highway of Tears and Missing Edmonton women but there has to be something in his past that would help us understand how he could kill an innocent child instead of letting that child go to safety, when his issue was supposedly with the grandparent(s).

Tom Svekla has been arrested and declared a dangerous offender for several of the Edmonton "high risk lifestyle" murders. Bobby Jack Fowler, of Oregon, has been identified as responsible for several Highway of Tears murders (hitch hiking). Cody Allan Legebokoff, of Vanderhof, is currently in trial for three of the murders that were in the Highway of Tears area. I think that most of the known locations for missing women in the area have been mapped. The problem is that many of the missing were hitch hiking, so it is unknown where they were going, and where they actually went missing. In some cases, the remains have not been found.

I suppose what we know is that more than one perp is involved, and it seems that all the perps leave their victims a short distance off a road in a secluded area. I don't think there is a map showing only those unsolved murders, but if there is a list, I'd be happy to map them. For example, Svekla is suspected for many murders, but I think he was only charged with a few. The same is true of the man from Oregon.

 

[otto]

Also, please correct me if in wrong, but don't Allan Liknes and DG's sister PG live in Edmonton?!? And also Edmonton just happens to be AL and KL's intended new city of residence...



Very interesting Gold, LE has been quite "hush hush" about the motive from the beginning....

Alvin's son lives in Evansburg, West of Edmonton.

 

[otto]

IMO the term medical distress was carefully chosen. If it were particularly gruesome I might think it would say 'in grave danger' or 'seriously injured'. IMO medical distress hints at being injured and perhaps some blood found but not enough to cause death. IMO they were not killed in the home. I think they were tied up and forced into the truck and forced to walk to their resting place.

The medical examiner does not attend crime scenes unless there is reason to believe that a death occurred.

 

[news.talk]

Police have used the phrase "signs of violence" to describe a scene where five victims, including pre-schoolers, have been violently, brutally stabbed to death. I don't believe they would use the term "violent" to describe a scene where the furniture was out of order.

It's also not uncommon for LE to chose their wording carefully or even slightly modify details in an attempt to manipulate a POI they are actively seeking.

 

[otto]

Then again we don't know the parents financial position ... if they had other assets they could have left those to PG and the farm to DG .... there could have been some arrangement made for him to maintain and work the property for the parents as they have gotten older in exchange for inheriting the property ... heck they might be leaving the whole thing to the church. It's all speculation at this point.

In terms of motive, and reasons that Garland would target his sister's in-laws, the Airdrie acreage could have a role.

 

[bakerlady]

The medical examiner does not attend crime scenes unless there is reason to believe that a death occurred.

Respectfully disagree. It could be death or suspicious injury. It may be a pool of blood but the victim is later found alive. Either way the medical examiner would be called. I found it telling when they said that NO 'may be with his grandfather'. It's like they were saying the grandfathers blood was found in the home, and he may or may not be alive and still present with the other two, but there was not enough evidence to decide if he was dead or alive.

 

[Leeman68]

I think everyone is starting to over think this. I do not believe DG is a serial killer or has engaged in activities with prostitiutes. IMO serial killers rarely go from random victims to someone they know so personally.

The motive for this crime was fame and fortune. I believe AL promised many things to DG for his patent work and fed him a bunch of BS about making millions. I think AL's history shows that he has misled many people to invest time, money, etc in to his businesses and has left them with nothing at the end. I think DG came to the conclusion that AL screwed him over and in DG's eyes was now skipping town and DG was not going to let him get away with it again. This was a premeditated crime of anger and revenge. Nothing else. As for NO, as has been said, wrong place, wrong time. DG could not let him go as I think NO knew who he was, had seen him around the family at times and would be able to identify him.

 

[Leeman68]

Respectfully disagree. It could be death or suspicious injury. It may be a pool of blood but the victim is later found alive. Either way the medical examiner would be called. I found it telling when they said that NO 'may be with his grandfather'. It's like they were saying the grandfathers blood was found in the home, and he may or may not be alive and still present with the other two, but there was not enough evidence to decide if he was dead or alive.

I think it was the other way. When they said NO may be with his grandfather, it was becasue they knew that KL was the one in medical distress and likely dead.

 

[otto]

It's also not uncommon for LE to chose their wording carefully or even slightly modify details in an attempt to manipulate a POI they are actively seeking.

Absolutely. When police requested that the owner of a green truck come forward as a "person of interest", they knew perfectly well that he was a suspect in the murders. As soon as he was identified, police detained him and secured the acreage as a crime scene. He "someone police wanted to speak with" in the news, and a "suspect" behind the scenes. Police described the first crime scene as "violent", adding that one of the victims may be in "medical distress", and then they called in the medical examiner (who attends death scenes). Eventually police admitted that, although they had hoped that at least one of the victims may have survived the initial attack, they could officially declare all victims deceased. No bodies have been found, so I'm sure that evidence at the first crime scene (Parkhill home) was the foundation for three first degree murder charges.

 

[otto]

Respectfully disagree. It could be death or suspicious injury. It may be a pool of blood but the victim is later found alive. Either way the medical examiner would be called. I found it telling when they said that NO 'may be with his grandfather'. It's like they were saying the grandfathers blood was found in the home, and he may or may not be alive and still present with the other two, but there was not enough evidence to decide if he was dead or alive.

"The Office of the Chief Medical Examiner (OCME) provides responsive front-line death investigation and death certification services."

http://justice.alberta.ca/programs_services/fatality/ocme/Pages/default.aspx

The medical examiner does not attend crime scenes unless it relates to death. The three have been declared dead by the medical examiner.

 

[otto]

I think it was the other way. When they said NO may be with his grandfather, it was because they knew that KL was the one in medical distress and likely dead.

I suspect that in order to declare the three victims deceased, there was evidence of blood, and potentially dismemberment, at the home. I agree that the first victim to be identified was most likely the grandmother.