Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Canadian women should have a man throwing competition where they toss 200 pound men into the back of pickup trucks. The smallest woman wins!

WARNING: gruesome discussion
onto the tail
Which part of the limp body is going to be hoisted into the back of the pickup truck first such that it is not necessary to lift the entire 6 foot long 200 pound body.

Keeping in mind that dead people don't bleed, if the limp 200 pound body was dragged and hoisted into a pickup truck, what contributed to 24 feet of washed down drag marks on the sidewalk?

Happy to discuss the math/physics of it ... looking forward to the explanation.

Dead people bleed. It could also be bowel contents or stomach contents, as dead people lose those as well.

A new F150, tailgate to ground is 36.4 inches. You would only need to get the upper torso onto the tailgate... so you grab the victim under the arms like in the wiki picture "C", approach the tailgate sideways, turn and drop. The leg weight won't be enough to drag the torso down. Lift the legs and that's it.

It's a heck of a lot quicker, cleaner and easier than dismembering someone at a crime scene. How on earth would the perp dismember someone? With what tools?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireman's_carry

 

[otto]

Let's not forget an important variable- rigour mortis?
A stiff being much easier to pivot.... Than a limp flaccid 200 lbs!
Body fluids pool after death, and secretions drain ....as an experienced ICU nurse that has shrouded many bodies for pickup to the morgue.

I doubt that the accused delayed in removing the victims from the home after they were murdered, so I doubt that rigor mortis was a factor.

Time Elapsed: Effect on Muscles

0 to 8 Hours: Body starts to stiffen, but is still movable
8 to 12 Hours: Muscles become completely stiff
12 to 24 Hours: Muscles stay stiff
24 to 36 Hours: Stiffness dissipates and muscles become flexible

http://education-portal.com/academy/lesson/rigor-mortis-definition-timeline-stages.html#lesson

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Let's not forget an important variable- rigour mortis?
A stiff being much easier to pivot.... Than a limp flaccid 200 lbs!
Body fluids pool after death, and secretions drain ....as an experienced ICU nurse that has shrouded many bodies for pickup to the morgue.

That may be true, but "Rigor Mortis" starts 2-6 hours after death, beginning with the head, face and neck. Do you think DG wanted to wait that long to be able to lift the bodies into his truck? As Stan Laurel pointed out in an earlier thread, out of the 12 hours from when the victims were last seen to when it was discovered something had happened, there's more like 4.5 hours of darkness to work in. In a premeditated murder situation, do you think he factored in the time required for rigor mortis to set in just so he could remove the bodies from the scene? One would assume he would have been better off leaving them in the house...what would've been the difference...there's apparently enough evidence at the scene to say the were dead anyway, and enough evidence tying DG to the crime scene, so why take the risk of potentially having a neighbor see him removing them? That leads me to think they were either dismembered or perhaps someone else was there with him to help in the dragging/lifting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Strength-Training: How Much Weight Can the Average Woman Lift?

"How do you compare on bench press? If you weigh 132 pounds and are untrained, you should be able to bench press around 64 pounds. Once you’ve trained for a few months, around 82 pounds. At the intermediate level, you should be able to press around 95 pounds. Compare that to an elite 132 pound female who would be expected to bench press around 110 pounds. At the ultra-elite level, Jennifer Thompson, a 132 pound powerlifter, broke her own bench press record and set a new record by bench pressing 300 pounds, almost 2.3 times her body weight.

When it comes to the deadlift, an untrained 132 pound woman should be able to lift around 74 pounds. After training for 3 to 9 months, about 137 pounds. At an intermediate level after a year or two of training, 159 pounds. How about at the highest level of training? Elite women at that weight can dead-lift 273 pounds."

http://cathe.com/strength-training-how-much-weight-can-the-average-woman-lift

Please lookup how the bench press, and the deadlift are executed, and then please realize both exercises are nothing like lifting another human being.

No one was bench pressing bodies that night. The deadlift is started inches from the ground, and grip strength is also a factor. A human body can be sat up so the starting point is higher. You would also be lifting with the bend in your elbows, which is closer to your body, and higher on your body which means you can lift much more, much easier than a deadlift with a dumbbell.

 

[otto]

That may be true, but "Rigor Mortis" starts 2-6 hours after death, beginning with the head, face and neck. Do you think DG wanted to wait that long to be able to lift the bodies into his truck? As Stan Laurel pointed out in an earlier thread, out of the 12 hours from when the victims were last seen to when it was discovered something had happened, there's more like 4.5 hours of darkness to work in. In a premeditated murder situation, do you think he factored in the time required for rigor mortis to set in just so he could remove the bodies from the scene? One would assume he would have been better off leaving them in the house...what would've been the difference...there's apparently enough evidence at the scene to say the were dead anyway, and enough evidence tying DG to the crime scene, so why take the risk of potentially having a neighbor see him removing them? That leads me to think they were either dismembered or perhaps someone else was there with him to help in the dragging/lifting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

I don't believe there is a second suspect - based on comments from the Chief of Police - so either the accused had some super human strength as he moved the body from police marker 14 to police marker 15 and into the back of a pickup truck, one or more bodies were dismembered, or there was a dolly in the garage that was used to move the bodies to the truck and then the accused picked up a 200 pound 6 foot tall man and loaded him into the truck.

How tall is the accused? 5'9"? He doesn't look that tall in the airport photo or the arrest photo. He doesn't appear overweight, so what would he weigh? 165 lbs?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I don't believe there is a second suspect - based on comments from the Chief of Police - so either the accused had some super human strength as he moved the body from police marker 14 to police marker 15 and into the back of a pickup truck, one or more bodies were dismembered, or there was a dolly in the garage that was used to move the bodies to the truck and then the accused picked up a 200 pound 6 foot tall man and loaded him into the truck.

How tall is the accused? 5'9"? He doesn't look that tall in the airport photo or the arrest photo. He doesn't appear overweight, so what would he weigh? 165 lbs?

Super Human Strength not required.

 

[otto]

Super Human Strength not required.

It makes no difference really. One way or another he carried three people out of house, put them in the back of a pick up truck, and put them in a secluded location that has not yet been found. Something caused drag marks from the side door to a distance 8 meters away at the front of the house. Dead people don't bleed since the heart doesn't beat.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

It makes no difference really. One way or another he carried three people out of house, put them in the back of a pick up truck, and put them in a secluded location that has not yet been found. Something caused drag marks from the side door to a distance 8 meters away at the front of the house. Dead people don't bleed since the heart doesn't beat.

Do you have a link to support this theory?

This was answered quite eloquently earlier.

I'm not sure that's quite right, otto.

The heart certainly wouldn't be pumping blood after death but if the body has wounds the blood would still ooze out. Depending on the number and severity of wounds, it could still be a substantial blood loss given sufficient time.

 

[LawyerMum]

Winches would make a noise when used so I don't believe that was a possibility in Parkhill location.

For whatever reason, seems like noise was no issue whatsoever that night. Not sure how quiet an old pick up would be starting up, doors banging and who knows what else.

 

[stan laurel]

It makes no difference really. One way or another he carried three people out of house, put them in the back of a pick up truck, and put them in a secluded location that has not yet been found. Something caused drag marks from the side door to a distance 8 meters away at the front of the house. Dead people don't bleed since the heart doesn't beat.

Graphic Warning
I used to work in a slaughterhouse, for a zoo - and - used only skin knives, cleavers and hatchets. In regards to blood flow; though I mainly slaughtered Charolais cows, on occasion I was to prep other animals for cause of death for vets, and I tell ya, even a goat, dead for a few hours still spills a lot of blood.

For the record, my best time for getting fresh meat from a once live cow was 27 minutes including skinning, largest dressed piece 22lbs, smallest piece 7lbs , however, one cannot just get into cutting apart an animal, it takes a lot of skill. On average a cow would take me about an hour. Now the graphic bit; it is not the blood that is difficult to clean off (even with a hose off of a very smooth concrete surface), it's the sinewy bits or bone with ligament which is common no matter how skilled you are with a knife. Cleaning tissue was my bane, it takes time. If he did that deed, he would have brought some with him.

How did he dismember efficiently and not bring a trace anywhere (that we know)?

 

[winnnancy]

I doubt that the accused delayed in removing the victims from the home after they were murdered, so I doubt that rigor mortis was a factor.

Time Elapsed: Effect on Muscles

0 to 8 Hours: Body starts to stiffen, but is still movable
8 to 12 Hours: Muscles become completely stiff
12 to 24 Hours: Muscles stay stiff
24 to 36 Hours: Stiffness dissipates and muscles become flexible

http://education-portal.com/academy/lesson/rigor-mortis-definition-timeline-stages.html#lesson

Yeah... Okay

 

[winnnancy]

I doubt that the accused delayed in removing the victims from the home after they were murdered, so I doubt that rigor mortis was a factor.

Time Elapsed: Effect on Muscles

0 to 8 Hours: Body starts to stiffen, but is still movable
8 to 12 Hours: Muscles become completely stiff
12 to 24 Hours: Muscles stay stiff
24 to 36 Hours: Stiffness dissipates and muscles become flexible

http://education-portal.com/academy/lesson/rigor-mortis-definition-timeline-stages.html#lesson

Yeah... Okay

Rigor normally appears within the body around two hours after the deceased has passed away with - as we have already mentioned - the facial and upper neck and shoulder muscles first to visibly suffer from its effects. Many Scenes of Crime Officers (SOCO) have reported that upon discovering the deceased that their face might have taken on what looks to be a grimace; this is because the facial muscles have contracted as ATP drains from them.



Once the contracting of all the body's muscles has taken place this state of Rigor - technically referred to as the Rigid Stage - normally lasts anything from eight to twelve hours after which time the body is completely stiff; this fixed state lasts for up to another eighteen hours.

 

[winnnancy]

I've seen some pretty stiff stiffs after a couple of hours

www.exploreforensics.co.uk

 

[sublimemumma]

[modsnip]

An "inopportune" or "disruptive" time simply means "not the best time". There was a lot going on that weekend. If it was grandparents that requested, one might wonder why they would want the added responsibility of looking after a 5 year old while they had the remnants of a three day sale to deal with as well as the addition of furniture, items from AL's office. As well as no doubt, being very tired themselves. Just a simple question. That's it. And yes, perhaps not the safest of times either now that you mention it. As has been pointed out...there were many people who had walked thru that home on the weekend, did the Liknes' know of all of the attendants' backgrounds? IMO, a high probability of 'likely not'. A lot of criminals have been known to ''case" a place before robbing it...perhaps there may have been someone with this intention cruising through, to have a look if there was anything of value to come back for. If it provokes thought...oh well...IMO, any good detective, LE or amateur would provoke as much thought and as many questions as possible to cover all bases and theories and to make sure that in fact, the right person(s) was being charged, tried and convicted. IMO, there is no room for "tunnel vision", "closed mindedness" or "dismissal" of any and all theories unless absolutely ruled out by evidence, which, I repeat, has as of yet to be disclosed to anyone other than LE.

As I have stated before I don't find it strange that NO was staying over. Him and his grandmother were very close. Maybe NO asked if he could stay. If this was my family, my parents having an estate sale that I possibly helped out with and knowing my parents were leaving soon on a trip (and especially if they were moving from our town) I would not hesitate (even with the craziness of the sale) to even suggest one my my kids staying over with grandma and grandpa. JMO

 

[sublimemumma]

The house had been gutted from a three day estate sale. More than 200 people had traipsed through the house in the previous three days. The "come on in" estate sale sign was still posted on the front door. The breadwinner had declared bankruptcy and cleaned out his office that week. Their entire lives were in complete upheaval. Setting aside everyone's personal wishes, why would that be a good environment for a five year old child?

... keeping in mind that it's always about the best interest of the child.

Yes their lives were in total upheaval and maybe that is the exact reason NO stayed. Maybe his grandmother wanted to hold him close and have the comfort and pour some love on her grandchild. I guess it may just be me but I don't think the L's felt they were in any danger... Also wasn't it the company and not AL that had just declared bankruptcy?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Please lookup how the bench press, and the deadlift are executed, and then please realize both exercises are nothing like lifting another human being.

No one was bench pressing bodies that night. The deadlift is started inches from the ground, and grip strength is also a factor. A human body can be sat up so the starting point is higher. You would also be lifting with the bend in your elbows, which is closer to your body, and higher on your body which means you can lift much more, much easier than a deadlift with a dumbbell.

You make a fair enough point about a human body being sat up so the starting point is higher. The highest starting point would be the head. Nope, doubt he started there...next would be under the arms...which means the head would likely slump towards front, back or either side...making it awkward...then what? You would still need to lift the body high enough to get it in the truck...so having a higher lifting point doesn't seem to gain any advantage as you would have to lift it up from a sitting position to sit it on the truck tailgate, and then jump in the back of the truck in order to drag it in the rest of the way. Again, awkward, obvious, noisy and still heavy. Actually to modify the benchpress position while lying under the body and using both his hands and feet while lying on his back would probably be easier but I don't think DG's arms and legs are 36" long, so that doesn't work. He could stand the body up, hoist it over his shoulder, sit it on the tailgate, jump in and drag it the rest of the way in. Or, he stood the body up...got in the box and lifted it up from the standing position. Ramp and wheelbarrow would be easiest, but still could be noisy.

.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

As I have stated before I don't find it strange that NO was staying over. Him and his grandmother were very close. Maybe NO asked if he could stay. If this was my family, my parents having an estate sale that I possibly helped out with and knowing my parents were leaving soon on a trip (and especially if they were moving from our town) I would not hesitate (even with the craziness of the sale) to even suggest one my my kids staying over with grandma and grandpa. JMO

....and your scenario could very well be what happened Still, not the best time or environment for a sleepover. NO had just spent the day there - grandma and grandpa must've been very tired...setting those sales up and taking them down are not easy, nor is taking apart and emptying out a business, which AL had done that day. Easy enough to postpone due to busy-ness and probably disorder in the house, and have a planned sleepover for the next night when there's more time to have fun with grandma and grandpa. NO not in school, KL works from home, AL had just dismantled his office, so likely not working anywhere outside the home anyway. Again, its a hindsight question...and an "if only...." hope, to maybe have spared the little one. Not a point of contention or for argument purposes.

 

[Power of Two]

Winches would make a noise when used so I don't believe that was a possibility in Parkhill location.

Industrial/farm winches are noisy. However, just to speak to the rather unlikely possibility, the portable lifts that we use in facilities/hospitals to lift and move residents/patients either in their beds or wheelchairs or up off the floor when they have fallen are very quiet. Ie: you cannot hear them from a hallway or adjoining room being used. We use a variety of body slings, depending on the strength and cognition of the patient, which hook up to the hydraulic lift. It saves both parties the risk of injury and is a safe and relatively easy method of moving a body. It would be a stretch to suggest one may have been used by DG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_lift

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I doubt that the accused delayed in removing the victims from the home after they were murdered, so I doubt that rigor mortis was a factor.

Time Elapsed: Effect on Muscles

0 to 8 Hours: Body starts to stiffen, but is still movable
8 to 12 Hours: Muscles become completely stiff
12 to 24 Hours: Muscles stay stiff
24 to 36 Hours: Stiffness dissipates and muscles become flexible

http://education-portal.com/academy/lesson/rigor-mortis-definition-timeline-stages.html#lesson

Yeah... Okay

Rigor normally appears within the body around two hours after the deceased has passed away with - as we have already mentioned - the facial and upper neck and shoulder muscles first to visibly suffer from its effects. Many Scenes of Crime Officers (SOCO) have reported that upon discovering the deceased that their face might have taken on what looks to be a grimace; this is because the facial muscles have contracted as ATP drains from them.



Once the contracting of all the body's muscles has taken place this state of Rigor - technically referred to as the Rigid Stage - normally lasts anything from eight to twelve hours after which time the body is completely stiff; this fixed state lasts for up to another eighteen hours.

All great information, however, it appears that we're getting into a peeing contest as to who knows more about rigor mortis...the point is, although it may be marginally easier to lift a body in rigor mortis, it would be awkward as it would be dependant on the position the body was in when it went into rigor mortis, along with the time factor required in order for it to set in. That would make it harder to manipulate than one that wasn't, and likely very awkward. Having said that, all 3 bodies were not in the home. They were removed from the premises somehow. Noiselessly, and unnoticed, and fairly quickly. IMO, there must have been a thought-out plan as to how this was going to be accomplished, it is premeditated. I doubt he sat, stood or laid in the back alley wrestling with at least one large body in order to get it in the back of the pickup. There must be another way this was done...or they weren't put in the back of the truck.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Was just thinking, the bodies were likely not dismembered at the Liknes house. If they were, the evidence would've shown that on the first day of the investigation and LE wouldn't have been searching for 3 people or NO and AL, that disappeared, they would be searching for 1, NO, as the Amber Alert remained in effect until July 14th. As Stan Laurel points out, its not the blood so much that makes the mess, but what's left behind after the blood is cleaned up, sinew, bone, etc. LE would have just been looking for NO.