Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[Tinkerbel1]

Industrial/farm winches are noisy. However, just to speak to the rather unlikely possibility, the portable lifts that we use in facilities/hospitals to lift and move residents/patients either in their beds or wheelchairs or up off the floor when they have fallen are very quiet. Ie: you cannot hear them from a hallway or adjoining room being used. We use a variety of body slings, depending on the strength and cognition of the patient, which hook up to the hydraulic lift. It saves both parties the risk of injury and is a safe and relatively easy method of moving a body. It would be a stretch to suggest one may have been used by DG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_lift

Excellent information! Any of those methods would be easy enough to use. The idea of a sling is definitely interesting...but may not one that hooks on to a hydraulic lift...how about the help of bungey cords or something as a makeshift sling? Whatever he did, he obviously got them all out and into some vehicle...does anyone know if perhaps the suspect had access to a car...maybe the truck wasn't used for removal of the bodies. Could be he didn't come to the Liknes house when he allegedly committed the murders in that truck...maybe he came in something else? Any info on that black SUV that we know of? They're not as high as a truck, and they're covered.

 

[otto]

Do you have a link to support this theory?

This was answered quite eloquently earlier.

I don't have a link (haven't looked) where it is stated that after the heart stops beating, blood flow stops and people don't bleed. I don't know anything about blood leaking out of the body when a dead person is moved. After death, blood will pool at the lowest point of the body. The average body has 5-6 litres of blood. How much blood would leak to result in drag marks spanning 8 metres?

 

[otto]

Graphic Warning
I used to work in a slaughterhouse, for a zoo - and - used only skin knives, cleavers and hatchets. In regards to blood flow; though I mainly slaughtered Charolais cows, on occasion I was to prep other animals for cause of death for vets, and I tell ya, even a goat, dead for a few hours still spills a lot of blood.

For the record, my best time for getting fresh meat from a once live cow was 27 minutes including skinning, largest dressed piece 22lbs, smallest piece 7lbs , however, one cannot just get into cutting apart an animal, it takes a lot of skill. On average a cow would take me about an hour. Now the graphic bit; it is not the blood that is difficult to clean off (even with a hose off of a very smooth concrete surface), it's the sinewy bits or bone with ligament which is common no matter how skilled you are with a knife. Cleaning tissue was my bane, it takes time. If he did that deed, he would have brought some with him.

How did he dismember efficiently and not bring a trace anywhere (that we know)?

Graphic Warning

We don't know what he had on his clothes, in the back of his truck, or in the area of the burn pit on the acreage. We know that he had four days to clean up. Police do know that the victims are deceased even though there are no bodies. They do know that there was a violent incident (homicide), and that someone was in medical distress. Did they find so much blood that it could be confirmed that there were three murders (17 litres of blood), or was there something else that confirmed their deaths?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Graphic Warning

We don't know what he had on his clothes, in the back of his truck, or in the area of the burn pit on the acreage. We know that he had four days to clean up. Police do know that the victims are deceased even though there are no bodies. They do know that there was a violent incident (homicide), and that someone was in medical distress. Did they find so much blood that it could be confirmed that there were three murders (17 litres of blood), or was there something else that confirmed their deaths?

We know there were not 3 at the house for sure...NO was still being looked for as Amber Alert remained in effect. And the information released was that there was enough evidence to know that someone "was in medical distress". If there was evidence that 1 or 2 of the murders occurred at the Liknes home, wouldn't it have been just as well for LE to inform the media that there was evidence of the 1 or 2 murders at the time of the "distress" statement. What is the advantage of not acknowledging certainty of death if they knew for sure? Getting confused with all this.

 

[Cherchri]

....and your scenario could very well be what happened Still, not the best time or environment for a sleepover. NO had just spent the day there - grandma and grandpa must've been very tired...setting those sales up and taking them down are not easy, nor is taking apart and emptying out a business, which AL had done that day. Easy enough to postpone due to busy-ness and probably disorder in the house, and have a planned sleepover for the next night when there's more time to have fun with grandma and grandpa. NO not in school, KL works from home, AL had just dismantled his office, so likely not working anywhere outside the home anyway. Again, its a hindsight question...and an "if only...." hope, to maybe have spared the little one. Not a point of contention or for argument purposes.

Ja ja ja but what if he had already fallen asleep? Perhaps JO was coming at 10 the next day anyway - to continue helping with packing, etc. I don't understand why this point is being belaboured so. IMO he was asleep. It was kinder to let him sleep than to disturb him for a 15 - 20 min drive home when he would likely have fallen asleep in the car and had to be woken yet again. All the while, remembering JO had a baby with her too. No-one anticipated the horror of what unfolded. Why would they. Why would anyone.

 

[Geonaty]

Does anybody Remember that there was a Facebook group that decided to help with the search but they were asked not to? And the reason was that police is searching for some very specific items that public is not aware of? I am wondering what those items could be? I am thinking body fragments if police thinks that he dismembered them in the house or ashes if they think that he burned them?

 

[otto]

We know there were not 3 at the house for sure...NO was still being looked for as Amber Alert remained in effect. And the information released was that there was enough evidence to know that someone "was in medical distress". If there was evidence that 1 or 2 of the murders occurred at the Liknes home, wouldn't it have been just as well for LE to inform the media that there was evidence of the 1 or 2 murders at the time of the "distress" statement. What is the advantage of not acknowledging certainty of death if they knew for sure? Getting confused with all this.

Police found something at the crime scene, but it was not bodies. On the basis of what they did find at the crime scene, they could not announce that anyone was deceased. Whatever they found was collected by the medical examiner, examined, and a couple of weeks later it was unequivocally stated that the three were deceased. That statement could not be made until whatever they found had been analysed and linked to each of the missing persons. Was it a huge amount of blood in the house? Perhaps. Whatever was on the 8 metres of sidewalk was washed away.

 

[otto]

Does anybody Remember that there was a Facebook group that decided to help with the search but they were asked not to? And the reason was that police is searching for some very specific items that public is not aware of? I am wondering what those items could be? I am thinking body fragments if police thinks that he dismembered them in the house or ashes if they think that he burned them?

Police didn't want the public searching private property for the obvious reason that property owners don't want strangers wandering around on their land.

 

[LoisLane]

This Google street image from Oct. 2012 shows the driveway to be quite stained. Also interesting to note are the two vehicles.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0196...!1e1!3m2!1sYUvIH8sI3auo7nPZo1fXmA!2e0!6m1!1e1

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I've seen some pretty stiff stiffs after a couple of hours

www.exploreforensics.co.uk

I don't have a link (haven't looked) where it is stated that after the heart stops beating, blood flow stops and people don't bleed. I don't know anything about blood leaking out of the body when a dead person is moved. After death, blood will pool at the lowest point of the body. The average body has 5-6 litres of blood. How much blood would leak to result in drag marks spanning 8 metres?

The link on Winnnancy's comment has a great explanation of Rigor Mortis and Lividity (which is the pooling of the blood).

 

[Tinkerbel1]

This Google street image from Oct. 2012 shows the driveway to be quite stained. Also interesting to note are the two vehicles.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0196...!1e1!3m2!1sYUvIH8sI3auo7nPZo1fXmA!2e0!6m1!1e1

Old driveways can have staining if not properly cleaned. I only see one vehicle? Maybe its time for bed..lol

 

[casesensitive]

From the time line:

Midday, June 29: Five-year-old Nathan O’Brien goes to visit his grandparents with his mother, Jennifer. In the afternoon, neighbour Peter Walton’s grandkids play with Nathan O’Brien in the park behind the Liknes home, while Alvin Liknes looks on from the garage.

I'm sorry I can no longer find the parent's press release video on the CBC or Global BC sites. I'm sure a WS'er will rescue me. TIA. What JO actually says on the video, is that she went to the sale "with my son, and Nathan was there". This has always made me wonder if Nathan had slept over the night before as well. Or maybe JO just worded it wrong. Either way, it is probably meaningless, but I see that some members have questioned why he was left to sleep over on that tragic night. If he had slept over on two consecutive nights, it might pose different questions, or none at all.

 

[otto]

This Google street image from Oct. 2012 shows the driveway to be quite stained. Also interesting to note are the two vehicles.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0196...!1e1!3m2!1sYUvIH8sI3auo7nPZo1fXmA!2e0!6m1!1e1

The drag marks were from the side door to the parking pad, not on the parking pad.

"Drag marks could be seen near evidence tags on the walkway of a home where three people were reported missing Monday.

Police would not comment on the drag marks, which ran about eight metres from a side door to the driveway and appeared to be a dark liquid that was recently cleaned up."

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/0...lgary-grandparents-and-young-boy-went-missing

 

[otto]

From the time line:

Midday, June 29: Five-year-old Nathan O’Brien goes to visit his grandparents with his mother, Jennifer. In the afternoon, neighbour Peter Walton’s grandkids play with Nathan O’Brien in the park behind the Liknes home, while Alvin Liknes looks on from the garage.

I'm sorry I can no longer find the parent's press release video on the CBC or Global BC sites. I'm sure a WS'er will rescue me. TIA. What JO actually says on the video, is that she went to the sale "with my son, and Nathan was there". This has always made me wonder if Nathan had slept over the night before as well. Or maybe JO just worded it wrong. Either way, it is probably meaningless, but I see that some members have questioned why he was left to sleep over on that tragic night. If he had slept over on two consecutive nights, it might pose different questions, or none at all.

This one?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...nathan-o-brien-and-his-grandparents-1.2694198

 

[Tinkerbel1]

....and your scenario could very well be what happened Still, not the best time or environment for a sleepover. NO had just spent the day there - grandma and grandpa must've been very tired...setting those sales up and taking them down are not easy, nor is taking apart and emptying out a business, which AL had done that day. Easy enough to postpone due to busy-ness and probably disorder in the house, and have a planned sleepover for the next night when there's more time to have fun with grandma and grandpa. NO not in school, KL works from home, AL had just dismantled his office, so likely not working anywhere outside the home anyway. Again, its a hindsight question...and an "if only...." hope, to maybe have spared the little one. Not a point of contention or for argument purposes.

Ja ja ja but what if he had already fallen asleep? Perhaps JO was coming at 10 the next day anyway - to continue helping with packing, etc. I don't understand why this point is being belaboured so. IMO he was asleep. It was kinder to let him sleep than to disturb him for a 15 - 20 min drive home when he would likely have fallen asleep in the car and had to be woken yet again. All the while, remembering JO had a baby with her too. No-one anticipated the horror of what unfolded. Why would they. Why would anyone.

"....Again, its a hindsight question...and an "if only...." hope, to maybe have spared the little one. Not a point of contention or for argument purposes."
Awake, or asleep...it doesn't really matter anymore...."Sleep with angels little NO" <3

 

[winnnancy]

Police found something at the crime scene, but it was not bodies. On the basis of what they did find at the crime scene, they could not announce that anyone was deceased. Whatever they found was collected by the medical examiner, examined, and a couple of weeks later it was unequivocally stated that the three were deceased. That statement could not be made until whatever they found had been analysed and linked to each of the missing persons. Was it a huge amount of blood in the house? Perhaps. Whatever was on the 8 metres of sidewalk was washed away.

Thanks Otto, I suggested in an earlier thread that if there had been blood on the sidewalk and it was hosed off, some diluted blood may have pooled and dried leaving the wavy pattern.

 

[otto]

Thanks Otto, I suggested in an earlier thread that if there had been blood on the sidewalk and it was hosed off, some diluted blood may have pooled and dried leaving the wavy pattern.

I think it was blood ... 8 metres of blood is a lot of blood. It more than I could imagine would leak from a wound of a deceased person, but that's nothing more than an opinion. It's a mystery for now.

 

[winnnancy]

Police found something at the crime scene, but it was not bodies. On the basis of what they did find at the crime scene, they could not announce that anyone was deceased. Whatever they found was collected by the medical examiner, examined, and a couple of weeks later it was unequivocally stated that the three were deceased. That statement could not be made until whatever they found had been analysed and linked to each of the missing persons. Was it a huge amount of blood in the house? Perhaps. Whatever was on the 8 metres of sidewalk was washed away.

Wonder if it wasn't cerebrospinal fluid along with blood? It might not dry in characteristic " halo" marks on linoleum etc but cytology would confirm?Firstly, CSF should have glucose in it, whereas this is unlikely in normal nasal secretions, and so measuring the glucose (initially on dipstix, and then formally) is helpful.

Secondly, if you are dealing with a bloody fluid, you could try to look for the halo sign (or ring sign). Dab some of the blood on a tissue. If there is CSF mixed with the blood, it will move by capillary action further away from the centre than the blood will. You'll get something like this:


These tests are helpful pointers, but they aren't wholly accurate. If you want to be more sure, measure the level of beta-2-transferrin in the fluid. This protein is only found in CSF, so if you are finding it in fluid coming from the nose or ears, you have a CSF leak.

Www. Medicguide.blogspot.ca

 

[Geonaty]

If there was so much evidence in the house, why there was an article a couple of days after the disappearance that police are confident that they are going to find the family alive? Or evidence wasn't as clear but it is clear enough to charge DG with three murders?
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/calgar...ey-ll-find-missing-boy-grandparents-1.1897614

 

[winnnancy]

I don't have a link (haven't looked) where it is stated that after the heart stops beating, blood flow stops and people don't bleed. I don't know anything about blood leaking out of the body when a dead person is moved. After death, blood will pool at the lowest point of the body. The average body has 5-6 litres of blood. How much blood would leak to result in drag marks spanning 8 metres?

IMO less than you think