Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #22

[Power of Two]

Was wondering if an electronic listening device had been planted in AL/KL's home during the estate sale? IF so, he would have known NO was there and still went - perhaps a reason for 1st degree for all three?

If he was there in an alternate dress code, he could well have planted a bug somewhere.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I wonder when and why the weekly psychiatric appointments came about? I can only think of these reasons (anyone please help with ideas!):

1. Part of his parole from years ago (doubtful since he wasn't considered a violent threat)
2. He was having sick, deviant, violent thoughts and sought help on his own to control them (doubtful)
3. He had another breakdown of sorts, was taken to the hospital and doctor ordered these visits
4. Someone (parents, sister/AL/AL Jr.) stumbled upon some of his paraphernalia on the farm (his murder books, dress-up garb) and gave him an ultimatum - see a psychiatrist or we're bringing you in (to LE or psych ward)

I vote #4. And I honestly can't think of any of reasons. Don't you need a referral to see a psychiatrist if you're not an in-patient at a hospital?

 

[gen_bug]

I keep re-reading old tweets and testimony as we go along. I always come back to this. The wording bothers me, is it eluding that the DNA Erase was used after DG was already in custody.... thoughts?

''Reid Fiest ‏@ReidFiest 4s4 seconds ago
Archie #Garland being asked if hebought DNA Erase, a chemical to erase DNA after police left their property the second time.''

 

[Lalalacasbah]

If he was there in an alternate dress code, he could well have planted a bug somewhere.

I think you and Sprigs are onto something.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I keep re-reading old tweets and testimony as we go along. I always come back to this. The wording bothers me, is it eluding that the DNA Erase was used after DG was already in custody.... thoughts?

''Reid Fiest ‏@ReidFiest 4s4 seconds ago
Archie #Garland being asked if hebought DNA Erase, a chemical to erase DNA after police left their property the second time.''

I definitely have my opinion but it would get snipped… I don't see how anyone who set foot in that home (or lived there) didn't notice murder books, wigs, weird medication that an average joe doesn't even know what it's for in fridges, etc. etc. etc.

 

[gen_bug]

I wonder when and why the weekly psychiatric appointments came about? I can only think of these reasons (anyone please help with ideas!):

1. Part of his parole from years ago (doubtful since he wasn't considered a violent threat)
2. He was having sick, deviant, violent thoughts and sought help on his own to control them (doubtful)
3. He had another breakdown of sorts, was take to the hospital and doctor ordered these visits
4. Someone (parents, sister/AL/AL Jr.) stumbled upon some of his paraphernalia on the farm (his murder books, dress-up garb) and gave him an ultimatum - see a psychiatrist or we're bringing you in (to LE or psych ward)

I vote #4. And I honestly can't think of any of reasons. Don't you need a referral to see a psychiatrist if you're not an in-patient at a hospital?

''Despite what the board described as “weapons and assault charges” that might indicate Garland, then 40, could commit a violent offence, it concluded his age, the fact he’d never been convicted for violence and a psychological assessment that found he had little potential for violence offset that.

Board members were concerned by his “20-plus years” of property offences and contributing “mental issues,” but concluded, “Your mental health is assessed as having stabilized and with close monitoring” by a psychiatrist and psychologist until what’s called his “warrant expiry date” in October of 2003, he was deemed a manageable risk."

I wonder if it was possible that it was extended, after this "Warrant expiry date

http://o.canada.com/news/national/blatchford-douglas-garland-person-of-interest-in-calgary-disappearance-of-boy-and-grandparents-had-troubled-history-with-law-and-mental-health-concerns-documents-reveal

 

[sublimemumma]

''Despite what the board described as “weapons and assault charges” that might indicate Garland, then 40, could commit a violent offence, it concluded his age, the fact he’d never been convicted for violence and a psychological assessment that found he had little potential for violence offset that.

Board members were concerned by his “20-plus years” of property offences and contributing “mental issues,” but concluded, “Your mental health is assessed as having stabilized and with close monitoring” by a psychiatrist and psychologist until what’s called his “warrant expiry date” in October of 2003, he was deemed a manageable risk."

I wonder if it was possible that it was extended, after this "Warrant expiry date

http://o.canada.com/news/national/blatchford-douglas-garland-person-of-interest-in-calgary-disappearance-of-boy-and-grandparents-had-troubled-history-with-law-and-mental-health-concerns-documents-reveal

With him still seeing someone weekly I think it was extended

 

[sublimemumma]

Uggg I don't want to go to work tomorrow and report on small town news for the paper... I want to just sit and wait for my twitter to sing as court is on. So why are the only doing half days with the jury, tomorrow and Friday?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

''Despite what the board described as “weapons and assault charges” that might indicate Garland, then 40, could commit a violent offence, it concluded his age, the fact he’d never been convicted for violence and a psychological assessment that found he had little potential for violence offset that.

Board members were concerned by his “20-plus years” of property offences and contributing “mental issues,” but concluded, “Your mental health is assessed as having stabilized and with close monitoring” by a psychiatrist and psychologist until what’s called his “warrant expiry date” in October of 2003, he was deemed a manageable risk."

I wonder if it was possible that it was extended, after this "Warrant expiry date

http://o.canada.com/news/national/blatchford-douglas-garland-person-of-interest-in-calgary-disappearance-of-boy-and-grandparents-had-troubled-history-with-law-and-mental-health-concerns-documents-reveal

That's very interesting... something triggered these weekly visits. Who or by what?

 

[Matzoh]

I definitely have my opinion but it would get snipped… I don't see how anyone who set foot in that home (or lived there) didn't notice murder books, wigs, weird medication that an average joe doesn't even know what it's for in fridges, etc. etc. etc.

His mother basically said they stayed out of his business (and office), given that he was an adult...and I'm assuming he locked all that in the office anyway. I'm more surprised that his parents didn't comment on the amount of mail order packages he must have received...you'd think they'd probably only have one shared postal box. His mother did comment on him hoarding, though, saying he bought a lot of things she didn't think they needed (at farm auctions, etc.) Man. If she only knew!!

A couple of procedural things...perhaps someone knows...I didn't understand what the judge was saying about "pacing the evidence" by not sitting tomorrow afternoon or Friday. Does that mean because it's been so graphic and intense he wants to give the jury a break, or is this some kind of regular courtroom convention that I'm not understanding?

I'm SO disturbed by the fact that they're passing around the exhibits to the jury to handle. Perhaps there's a purpose to that from the Crown's perspective -- I certainly hope it serves some higher purpose, because if it's just to drive the horridness of all this home to the jury, I find that bordering on exploitative. Ugh.

I can't stop thinking about those poor O'Brien parents, having to hear all this. Please tell me they don't have to hear all this crap for the first time in the courtroom...I can't imagine. Not only your baby, but also your parents...I'm not sure I could survive that.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

With him still seeing someone weekly I think it was extended

But for 11 years? One might say that's an invasions of one's constitutional right to freedom and too long to monitor someone who 'did their time'. I'm thinking something else happened…his behavior spooked someone, something was found, maybe he was caught stalking someone and they filed a report, could be anything. Were the psych visits ordered or a trade?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

His mother basically said they stayed out of his business (and office), given that he was an adult...and I'm assuming he locked all that in the office anyway. I'm more surprised that his parents didn't comment on the amount of mail order packages he must have received...you'd think they'd probably only have one shared postal box. His mother did comment on him hoarding, though, saying he bought a lot of things she didn't think they needed (at farm auctions, etc.) Man. If she only knew!!

A couple of procedural things...perhaps someone knows...I didn't understand what the judge was saying about "pacing the evidence" by not sitting tomorrow afternoon or Friday. Does that mean because it's been so graphic and intense he wants to give the jury a break, or is this some kind of regular courtroom convention that I'm not understanding?

I'm SO disturbed by the fact that they're passing around the exhibits to the jury to handle. Perhaps there's a purpose to that from the Crown's perspective -- I certainly hope it serves some higher purpose, because if it's just to drive the horridness of all this home to the jury, I find that bordering on exploitative. Ugh.

I can't stop thinking about those poor O'Brien parents, having to hear all this. Please tell me they don't have to hear all this crap for the first time in the courtroom...I can't imagine. Not only your baby, but also your parents...I'm not sure I could survive that.

I get the privacy thing of living together but maybe for food in the fridge, laundry, phone calls and personal space you know normal stuff, but when living with an ex-con who took advantage of his parents home once with a meth lab, one would think that padlocks on everything and paranoid behavior might set off some red flags. But that's just me. If I lived with a roommate that did that I'd be like….uhh this is weird.

I think they're passing around the exhibits to show the gravity of the crime. It makes it real. A terrible experience I'm sure for those jurors, nightmares for life I bet. But required for emotional impact. I have no idea how the O'Brien's are making it though… I would crumble.

 

[Power of Two]

But for 11 years? One might say that's an invasions of one's constitutional right to freedom and too long to monitor someone who 'did their time'. I'm thinking something else happened…his behavior spooked someone, something was found, maybe he was caught stalking someone and they filed a report, could be anything. Were the psych visits ordered or a trade?

The more evidence that is revealed with regards to DG's ongoing behaviours and obviously long standing mental health issues and brushes with LE over the years, the more I am convinced that immediate AND extended family know waaayyy more about him and his activities than we are led to believe. I find it incredulous that the parents and siblings would continue to function as a 'normal' family unit ie: dinners and visits, all the while giving DG his 'space' to putter and do his own thing without question or at least curiosity. Were they bullied and afraid of him and just gave him alot of latitude and privacy to avoid confrontation or hostility? If they were my parents, as a daughter, I would not be happy to see them in this longstanding situation with my creeper brother skulking about.
One other thought... where does the psychiatrist stand in all of these unfolding horrors? Would they be able to dust themselves off and maintain distance from the entire ordeal due to confidentiality? Can those medical records be subpoenaed? I really wonder if the psychiatrist is at all surprised by what has transpired with their client?

 

[mrazda71]

His mother basically said they stayed out of his business (and office), given that he was an adult...and I'm assuming he locked all that in the office anyway. I'm more surprised that his parents didn't comment on the amount of mail order packages he must have received...you'd think they'd probably only have one shared postal box. His mother did comment on him hoarding, though, saying he bought a lot of things she didn't think they needed (at farm auctions, etc.) Man. If she only knew!!

A couple of procedural things...perhaps someone knows...I didn't understand what the judge was saying about "pacing the evidence" by not sitting tomorrow afternoon or Friday. Does that mean because it's been so graphic and intense he wants to give the jury a break, or is this some kind of regular courtroom convention that I'm not understanding?

I'm SO disturbed by the fact that they're passing around the exhibits to the jury to handle. Perhaps there's a purpose to that from the Crown's perspective -- I certainly hope it serves some higher purpose, because if it's just to drive the horridness of all this home to the jury, I find that bordering on exploitative. Ugh.

I can't stop thinking about those poor O'Brien parents, having to hear all this. Please tell me they don't have to hear all this crap for the first time in the courtroom...I can't imagine. Not only your baby, but also your parents...I'm not sure I could survive that.

I think it's normal and an important part of being on a jury at a trial of this kind to touch and feel and see us close items of evidence. Touch is such a vital sense and I guess, it may be needed to really hit home that, for example 'this gun or knife in your hands is what took the life of' etc I'm probably not explaining this very well but ...

Yes, Jen and Rod will have been told prior and privately all the evidence and horrific detail though I imagine when they're sat there in court, hearing those words spoken out loud will still be just as painful.

 

[Tealgrove]

The more evidence that is revealed with regards to DG's ongoing behaviours and obviously long standing mental health issues and brushes with LE over the years, the more I am convinced that immediate AND extended family know waaayyy more about him and his activities than we are led to believe. I find it incredulous that the parents and siblings would continue to function as a 'normal' family unit ie: dinners and visits, all the while giving DG his 'space' to putter and do his own thing without question or at least curiosity. Were they bullied and afraid of him and just gave him alot of latitude and privacy to avoid confrontation or hostility? If they were my parents, as a daughter, I would not be happy to see them in this longstanding situation with my creeper brother skulking about.
One other thought... where does the psychiatrist stand in all of these unfolding horrors? Would they be able to dust themselves off and maintain distance from the entire ordeal due to confidentiality? Can those medical records be subpoenaed? I really wonder if the psychiatrist is at all surprised by what has transpired with their client?

BBM

That's exactly what I think. MOO

 

[Tealgrove]

I think it's normal and an important part of being on a jury at a trial of this kind to touch and feel and see us close items of evidence. Touch is such a vital sense and I guess, it may be needed to really hit home that, for example 'this gun or knife in your hands is what took the life of' etc I'm probably not explaining this very well but ...

Yes, Jen and Rod will have been told prior and privately all the evidence and horrific detail though I imagine when they're sat there in court, hearing those words spoken out loud will still be just as painful.

BBM

I'm not so sure they know everything. Sharlene Bosma knew that her husband's body was burned but she DID NOT know that he was put into an animal incinerator. There were many things she had vague knowledge of but not the exact knowledge.

I think the family knows basic details however, I do not believe that they know EVERYTHING.

MOO

 

[mrazda71]

BBM

I'm not so sure they know everything. Sharlene Bosma knew that her husband's body was burned but she DID NOT know that he was put into an animal incinerator. There were many things she had vague knowledge of but not the exact knowledge.

I think the family knows basic details however, I do not believe that they know EVERYTHING.

MOO

Yes you're right Tealgrove, I didn't mean in every detail but, I'm pretty sure they shouldn't have any bombshells dropped on them in court.

*lovely to see you and Becky's lovely face, upset on her thread at the moment!*

 

[Blue Amethyst]

DG could have gone to the sale as two different people at two different times.

 

[Coldpizza]

Douglas Garland triple-murder trial: graphic evidence to continue Wednesday

A key investigator from the Calgary Police Forensic Crime Scene Unit is continuing his testimony Wednesday in the triple-murder trial of Douglas Garland.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3203720/d...trial-forensic-expert-testifies/?sf52680557=1

 

[otto]

It's beyond weird. He has a dentist chair, freezing anesthetic, his father has tooth pain, teeth found in the Liknes home, at least one with root intact. Did he bring pliers with him too? Strangely, I can actually picture him as a dentist with his dental tools and a chair.

Hard blows to the head (not necessarily the face) can cause the avulsion of teeth - where teeth are detached and fly or fall out of the mouth.