CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #2

[puppyraiser]

I found what muggles means! Please hit the link:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Muggles

Learn something every day!! (Now you all know I never read Harry Potter.)

ETA: This hit me about muggles:

Muggles are to be protected, avoided, manipulated, or abused by the characters or the plot — often all four, one way or another.

And these types of games brings us back to 'young and close'.

That definition is not the same as when used by Geocachers. Yes we use stealth and try to avoid a Muggle, but never would a Geocacher "manipulate or abuse" one. To us, a Muggle is someone who does not know what the game is or has never played before.

Muggle
A non-geocacher. Based on "Muggle" from the Harry Potter series, which is a non-magical person. Usually this term is used after a non geocacher looks puzzled after befriending a geocacher searching for a cache, or when a non-geocacher accidentally finds a cache. Geomuggles are mostly harmless.

As for the "young and close" part of your post................ Geocaching is played by all ages from young children to retired and elderly people. That's the great thing about this game-anyone can play!!

 

[dotr]

Thanks for the insider info. puppyraiser, geocaching actually sounds quite interesting and fun!

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Now I'm wondering why Audrey's dogs didn't bark at the geocachers! Or, maybe they did and AG went out to confront these people.

From the description given by a geocacher at this site, I'm thinking that this group of people is innocent - but, one of them could have seen something that horrible night.

And I wonder if LE has interviewed them.

 

[puppyraiser]

Hopefully they are innocent. I'm going to go over the logs around the time of the murder to see if anyone was in the area.

And yes, it is quite fun. I have a t-shirt that says "I use multi-billion dollar military satellites to find Tupperware hidden in the woods." As I stated previously, I've seen some incredibly beautiful places I wouldn't have known about in Ontario if it hadn't been for Geocaching.

OT-did any of the canucks know that we actually have Badlands in Ontario??
http://www.day-trips.ca/content/cheltenham-badlands

 

[LilyMacBloom]

LV is 64 years old and was NOT a teacher.
She met AG at the Brantford Golf & CC.
I didn't ask any more ?s as it seemed inappropriate.

 

[puppyraiser]

I can't access the previous logs for the archived cache at the cemetery as my past Pocket Query for Stoney Creek didn't extend quite far enough to include the Lynden area (only went as far as hwy 6). Would be really nice to know the GC # of the archived cache....... maybe I'll message the people who had been there just after the murder as they should have it in their Found list.

 

[roseofsharon]

The perp could have been using Geocaching as a guise.

If it was so unusual, as has been reported, to see someone walking on Indian Road, why didn't the neighbour who saw a man with a backpack walking up AG's driveway, check with AG that everything was okay.

Why didn't this neighbour alert all the neighbours there was a stranger on their road.

I do not live in rural country, but when I see someone walking up my neighbour's driveway that looks suspicious, I call them or tell them when they get home. My husband has even questioned a person as to who or what they are looking for!

The person with the backpack is a big red flag!!

imo

 

[roseofsharon]

I can't access the previous logs for the archived cache at the cemetery as my past Pocket Query for Stoney Creek didn't extend quite far enough to include the Lynden area (only went as far as hwy 6). Would be really nice to know the GC # of the archived cache....... maybe I'll message the people who had been there just after the murder as they should have it in their Found list.

Puppy, do you know what other places of interest in the area are favourites for geocachers. It's a beautiful area, so I would imagine there are quite a few places. Thanks.

 

[puppyraiser]

I was able to access the archived cache and noted it was hidden on 06/26/2010 and that there were 59 logged visits with the last one being on April 14, 2011. No where in any of the logs does it state that cachers had run into people who live on the road or dogs barking fiercely enough to scare them away. I also noticed that the logs reflect that most, if not all, the searches were done in the day for this specific location.
Last log previous to the murder was Dec 2nd.

 

[puppyraiser]

Puppy, do you know what other places of interest in the area are favourites for geocachers. It's a beautiful area, so I would imagine there are quite a few places. Thanks.

I just checked the map and saw at least 47 caches hidden along the BPACH trail on the other side of Jerseyville Rd West. I think it's an old rail line turned into a hiking/biking trail so a group may park vehicles at both ends and then hike it or bike from one end to the other. I would imagine you'd see people with backpacks. There's also another cache located on Misener Rd/Wise Rd, just around the corner from Indian Trail. Another nearby cache is called Vansickle Cemetery located on Jerseyville Rd just off Lynden Rd.

 

[roseofsharon]

I was able to access the archived cache and noted it was hidden on 06/26/2010 and that there were 59 logged visits with the last one being on April 14, 2011. No where in any of the logs does it state that cachers had run into people who live on the road or dogs barking fiercely enough to scare them away. I also noticed that the logs reflect that most, if not all, the searches were done in the day for this specific location.
Last log previous to the murder was Dec 2nd.

Hmm, how interesting that dogs were never reported barking in 59 logged visits to the cemetery. I wonder why the neighbour's dog across the street from AG's started barking at approximately 2:30 a.m. last December, but didn't bark when other people were around -- 59 times?:twocents:

 

[puppyraiser]

Hmm, how interesting that dogs were never reported barking in 59 logged visits to the cemetery. I wonder why the neighbour's dog across the street from AG's started barking at approximately 2:30 a.m. last December, but didn't bark when other people were around -- 59 times?:twocents:

No idea,
The neighbour's dogs may well have barked during the day when cachers were out in the area but if she/he saw the vehicles at the cemetery may have thought nothing about it. Dogs barking madly in the middle of the night usually means someone is around.
ETA- usually a person will make a note in a log if they encounter something like a dog or person that is unwelcoming so that other cachers are aware or so that the Cache owners will archive or move their cache elsewhere.

I will add that I have dogs and they don't often bark during the day when they hear noises unless someone actually pulls into the driveway but at night it's a different story...they are much more aware of the slightest sounds that aren't 'normal' to them.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

OK, what I'm gathering here is that AG's area (surrounding and adjacent to her property) is often filled with people going geocaching. But this has me curious - why would that female neighbour in the video shot after AG's murder make the area sound so remote, unused, no outsiders, no one locks their doors, etc. And why would (according to the woman in the video) seeing a guy with a backpack be so "odd"?

Basically - I'm very confused. Was Audrey's home/land in a quiet, bucolic area OR was it in a well-used area with many people very often passing by?



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ETA: Here's the link to another geocaching place near Audrey's home:

LINK - http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=93475409-1554-4b1d-8f45-bf4cf522d685

 

[puppyraiser]

OK, what I'm gathering here is that AG's area (surrounding and adjacent to her property) is often filled with people going geocaching. But this has me curious - why would that female neighbour in the video shot after AG's murder make the area sound so remote, unused, no outsiders, no one locks their doors, etc. And why would (according to the woman in the video) seeing a guy with a backpack be so "odd"?

Basically - I'm very confused. Was Audrey's home/land in a quiet, bucolic area OR was it in a well-used area with many people very often passing by?

I would think that the area is remote and that in a span of 8 months, 59 visits to the cemetery wouldn't be all that unusual. I also didn't make note if groups of people searched on the same day and recorded separate logs for each person as we all have unique caching names and keep a running count of individual finds. It's possible that the area may only have been visited 30 or 40 times in that 8 month period. Typically if you're only looking in one area for a cache and a long hike isn't involved then one wouldn't be wearing a backpack unless he/she is carrying extra supplies in case the Cache needs repair. Does that make sense?

Also the F & J in log noted in the top post on this page have 10,000+ finds so they are very experienced cachers.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

puppyraiser - yes it makes sense for the geocachers BUT after Audrey's murder we were led to believe that anyone who wasn't 'known in the area' was considered "odd".

We were told that only LV (Audrey's female friend) and PK (Audrey's friend and handyman) were really the only ones to use her roadway or to be seen in and around her property.

Now, it seems that people of all ages have been traipsing around Audrey's home and property for a very long time.

So.........

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ETA: Wait a minute! Perhaps AG herself was a geocacher!! Afterall, she was inquisitive, intelligent and liked a challenge - perhaps AG met a bad guy whilst out geocaching!!

PK - would you be able to tell us if AG was part of this geocaching interest?

Thanks.

 

[libyana]

I often see mormons with backpacks travelling around, very clean cut looking.
Or even just people with flyers, not sneaking around but right in the driveways.
As for the dogs, surely they would have smelled blood, they and the neighbours dogs would have gone nuts smelling that.

 

[puppyraiser]

From the cache map, it's unlikely that people would end up on Audrey's property since most who play the game know a cemetery cache is located somewhere INSIDE the cemetery property. I read F & J's log from Dec and it didn't seem like the police who were there the same day were concerned at all with their presence in the area. Here is part of the log

"Very disturbing. As we were coming down the road we were greeted by numerous police vehicles and news crew vehicles fom Toronto and Hamilton parked along both sides of the road. Police crime scene tape stretched all the way to the edge of the cemetery. It was obvious that something horrific had occured here.
Thankfully, the cache was hidden well down the road on the other edge of the cemetery a good distance away from the scene........."

 

[roseofsharon]

From the cache map, it's unlikely that people would end up on Audrey's property since most who play the game know a cemetery cache is located somewhere INSIDE the cemetery property. I read F & J's log from Dec and it didn't seem like the police who were there the same day were concerned at all with their presence in the area. Here is part of the log

"Very disturbing. As we were coming down the road we were greeted by numerous police vehicles and news crew vehicles fom Toronto and Hamilton parked along both sides of the road. Police crime scene tape stretched all the way to the edge of the cemetery. It was obvious that something horrific had occured here.
Thankfully, the cache was hidden well down the road on the other edge of the cemetery a good distance away from the scene........."

Just wondering puppy, I am not a geocacher myself, so I am not familiar with protocol for lack of a better term, but would it be out of the realm of possibility that someone needing facilities would go to a nearby home to ask permission to use if they were in a bind or are there designated facilities in the surrounding areas of the geocaching sites.

We have cell phones to make calls, GPS to find our way home, BUT unfortunately, that is one need that technology has yet to address and johnnys are not placed in the actual geocaching location, I wouldn't think.

The person with the backpack was not necessarily a geocacher, but just trying to think of a reason why this person was walking up AG's driveway between xmas and new year in daylight hours and obviously not worried about being seen.

As I mentioned before, it could have been a guise. If asked who are you, what are you doing, what are you looking for -- oh, I am a geocacher and then neighbours would probably just be fine with that.

LE needs to visit the geocaching sites in the area and see if anything that was taken from AG's home is possibly hidden in one of these caches.



imo

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

puppyraiser, please don't get me wrong - I'm not blaming the geocachers at all. I'm simply getting very frustrated that nothing seems to be coming out from LE regarding this lovely woman's brutal murder.

I'm quite certain I speak for many of us here at this site when I say that we want this killer to be found and to see justice done - for Audrey and all innocent victims.

Perhaps LE will indeed find the killer soon.:justice:

 

[dotr]

I wonder if anyone in the area around that time might have inadvertently captured a lurking killer in a photo...