Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

[Cora]

Police in Toronto were conducting a homicide investigation Monday into the*deaths of *advertiser censored*Canadian billionaire and his wife
after weekend autopsies revealed the couple died of strangulation..

The cause of death for both victims was "ligature neck compression," police*said in a statement.

IMO this rules out the murder -suicide theory.

Ligature strangulation does not = "hanging".

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...urround-toronto-billionaires-death/960353001/

MOO

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Wow. Thank you for clearing that up. Changes everything.


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[PaulR]

Makes me glad the family had the clout to get homicide police called in. For most families it sounds like the police would just say "murder-suicide" and go home.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Agree. The hanging of two people is the stumper here. Whether it’s a double suicide, a murder-suicide or a double murder, the hanging of two people is unusual and bizarre. There are easier ways to achieve the same result. So, IMO the fact that hanging was used perhaps has some significance.

Someone wondered about auto-erotic asphyxiation. That’s the only scenario that would require hanging, so I guess that possibility should be on the table, even though it seems a little wild for these two, in my inexperienced opinion. But one never knows.

So IMO the big question is “why choose hanging?” A few thoughts....If it’s a double murder, or a murder suicide, it’s quiet and the hope might be that LE would just rule it suicide. But there’s still the difficulty getting the victim(s) to cooperate. It’s still unclear whether Honey died elsewhere. If it’s a double suicide, perhaps sufficient pills were unavailable and obtaining them might be difficult, especially if the suicide needed to happen immediately, for some reason.

IF this is murder, maybe they were killed by strangulation and then posed hanging by the pool after the fact to make it appear to be a murder suicide.

 

[LaborDayRN]

So there was no other trauma to their bodies. I guess the next step is the toxicology report and the all important security footage.

The way I read it, there may have been other trauma to the bodies, it just wasn't the cause of death.

 

[dotr]

i assume the real estate agent who found them had a key. \or access to a lock box and hence a key. would it by typical for an agent, not finding anyone home, to start going through every room, for example the basement pool area?
of course the agent and anyone else with the agency with authorization to handle viewings (if any) would have access anytime anyday.

As for timing\; if there is anything regarding wills or financial transactions then there could be something we don't know....a pending visit to a lawyer etc. that would make it essential to happen immediately

Rbbm.
Maybe the real estate woman saw something unusual that has not been mentioned in the press and she went looking for the couple, or, she thought they were swimming and could not hear her call for them?

A wedding being planned.
A new grand child born.
House for sale.
House getting built.
Thinking that the " deed " had to be done before the house was sold ( accessibility?) and before Honey left on Monday for Florida, followed by Barry later.
This might have been an ideal or the only opportunity to strike at both people at the same time.
Both were present in the house ( or ended up there ) the family was away, they had a house on the market with photos for all to see, and maybe the start of the holiday season added to the horror...
imo, speculation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/17/world/canada/barry-sherman-death.html

The couple showed all the signs of an expanding, invested life. They were building a new home, helping plan their daughter’s wedding and celebrating the arrival of a third grandchild.

They had booked a long vacation north of Miami Beach, Fla., where they owned a condominium and visited regularly. Mrs. Sherman, who was set to leave on Monday, sent out email to friends last Monday asking for dates to golf and dinner for the couple while they were there

.

 

[Lilibet]

IF this is murder, maybe they were killed by strangulation and then posed hanging by the pool after the fact to make it appear to be a murder suicide.

Yes, that’s definitely a possibility too. If that’s the case, I would think there should be clues on their bodies that indicate that...marks from being transported, double marks on their necks, etc. LE should be able to determine if that happened.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

A thought that may be completely irrelevant but they must have been thinking of listing the house for awhile because the photos look as though they were taken in the fall before the leaves changed and flowers were still in bloom. IIRC the house had only actually been on the market for a few days.

 

[Chorley8]

Wow. Thank you for clearing that up. Changes everything.


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Ligature INCLUDES hanging it differentiates only from manual. Source\former Toronto cold case officer Steve Ryan on CP 24 news.

 

[Doghairrules]

The photo was posted yesterday. There was water in the pool and there was a cover. The railing is a normal handrail at something like forty inches height along the end of the lap pool.

I just saw the picture of the pool. Railing doesn’t seem high enough for a hanging, does it?

 

[Sphinx]

I don't, but that doesn't rule out pin hole cameras.
I am curious about any camera footage!
MOO

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It would surprise me if people with that much money didn't have a state of the art security system. If it was murder, and I think it is more likely than murder-suicide, then perhaps the killers knew how to gain entry silently, and turn off the alarm system.

Warren Buffet even has full-time security guards around his home and office, I have read. I am even surprised that they did not have drivers who were also body-guards at the least, but apparently Barry liked to drive himself to work in an old car, and Honey finally bought him a new one. I wonder if she just drove herself around too ? If someone managed to get in his/ her car, and forced them, probably at gun point, to take them into the house by way of the large 6 car garage, next to the pool, that could explain not seeing anyone going into the house, if they hid in a back seat when approaching and entering the garage ( if there are outside security cameras ). It would also explain the lack of forced entry. Honey was out and about more than Barry it seems, and she would be an easier target. Maybe that is why she was killed first somewhere else in the house. She may have tried to warn Barry, and they silenced her. Then possibly they forced Barry to the pool area, killed him there, and brought Honey's body there as well, and staged it to look like a murder suicide. Just a theory. If it was murder, it was well planned ahead of time.

The house looks staged, and I doubt that they would have expensive jewelry etc. on the property when it was being shown by real estate agents. Was there a safe, and would thieves have perhaps been trying to force Barry to open it by partially strangling Honey, then things went terribly wrong -- they killed her by accident, and then had to kill Barry too, staging it to make it look like murder-suicide without ever making him open the safe ? Wild conjecture I know, but just trying to think of some possible logical explanations.

Did all the other robberies in the area happen only when the houses were not occupied ? Did security cameras gather any information, or were they disabled ? It seems that LE is having a hard time catching these thieves. IMO

 

[Inthedetails]

I just saw the picture of the pool. Railing doesn’t seem high enough for a hanging, does it?

If the bodies hung over the edge of the pool, it's high enough. JMO

 

[Lilibet]

I just saw the picture of the pool. Railing doesn’t seem high enough for a hanging, does it?

Actually, hanging can be done from a door knob in a sitting position. The railing would work.

 

[TTF14]

It would surprise me if people with that much money didn't have a state of the art security system. If it was murder, and I think it is more likely than murder-suicide, then perhaps the killers knew how to gain entry silently, and turn off the alarm system.

Warren Buffet even has full-time security guards around his home and office, I have read. I am even surprised that they did not have drivers who were also body-guards at the least, but apparently Barry liked to drive himself to work in an old car, and Honey finally bought him a new one. I wonder if she just drove herself around too ? If someone managed to get in his/ her car, and forced them, probably at gun point, to take them into the house by way of the large 6 car garage, next to the pool, that could explain not seeing anyone going into the house, if they hid in a back seat when approaching and entering the garage ( if there are outside security cameras ). It would also explain the lack of forced entry. Honey was out and about more than Barry it seems, and she would be an easier target. Maybe that is why she was killed first somewhere else in the house. She may have tried to warn Barry, and they silenced her. Then possibly they forced Barry to the pool area, killed him there, and brought Honey's body there as well, and staged it to look like a murder suicide. Just a theory. If it was murder, it was well planned ahead of time.

The house looks staged, and I doubt that they would have expensive jewelry etc. on the property when it was being shown by real estate agents. Was there a safe, and would thieves have perhaps been trying to force Barry to open it by partially strangling Honey, then things went terribly wrong -- they killed her by accident, and then had to kill Barry too, staging it to make it look like murder-suicide without ever making him open the safe ? Wild conjecture I know, but just trying to think of some possible logical explanations.

Did all the other robberies in the area happen only when the houses were not occupied ? Did security cameras gather any information, or were they disabled ? It seems that LE is having a hard time catching these thieves. IMO

I really think there are only two options either.....either it was a murder suicide after all OR it was a double murder by someone very informed about how to thwart the security system, or knowledge that there wasn't one. Because even if they had full body armor on, why stage it as a suicide unless there is NO video? Makes no sense.

All my opinion, speculation and all that.

 

[Doghairrules]

I just had the same thought/question about the real estate agent. From the floor plans, the indoor pool is the farthest room from the center of the house or any exterior doors. If it is normal for the real estate agent to let themselves in, it would IMOO not be the first place I would think they would look, if not most likely the last.

I wonder if they A) were getting the house ready for a showing and going room to room to make sure everything was set up or B) saw some type of disturbance leading them to look for the home owners out of concern for their safety.

Just thoughts going through my head because it did seem odd

Or thought they were home due to vehicles? I guess the agent could also have been turning on lights or whatever to show the pool room in the best light. It looks a little dreary in the pictures.

 

[Lilibet]

From Wikipedia:

Homicides[FONT=&quot] may be disguised as a hanging suicide.[/FONT][SUP][34][/SUP][FONT=&quot] Features that suggest that the death is a homicide include the ligature marks being under the larynx, scratch marks on the ligature, and the presence of significant injury on the skin of the neck.[/FONT][SUP][1

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_hanging[/SUP]

 

[MizStery]

For me. The wording "ligature neck compression". is hugely important. It tells me that IF this is a murder-suicide, Barry strangled her with a ligature then drug her body to the pool or he somehow managed to get her in a noose and hang her. She most certainly would have struggled fiercely, unless she was drugged.

I am interested to know if there are one or two sets of ligature marks.




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I agree with Otto's post. The family has given an ultimatum to LE that the family will pursue legal remedy if not investigated as a criminal case.

That's pretty much my understanding at this time. Police have said that there's no sign of a break-in and they are not currently looking for a suspect. In their estimation, it must look like a murder-suicide, and there must be reasons for that conclusion. The family has a lot of money and is unwilling to consider the possibility of murder-suicide, so police have brought in the homicide team to look for anything that was missed that would indicate a double murder.

There is security camera coverage of the property, so I think that will be the best option for ruling out a double murder. If security cameras were turned off at some point, it should be evident when that happened and who did that because security systems are tied to computers which are tied to passwords. I suspect that even an erased portion can be retrieved with today's technology.

To me the following statement sounds like the legal department is dancing on the head of a pin in their definition of ligature neck compression.

Honey and Barry Sherman died of “ligature neck compression,” a form of strangulation in which a cord or rope is used to exert fatal pressure on a person’s neck, Toronto police said.
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2017/12/18/billionaire-couple-found-dead-in-their-basement-had-been-strangled-canadian-police-say/?utm_termsd=.671ea36d5ae6
:cow:[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Satchie]

LIGATURE STRANGULATUON

The autopsy did not state ligature strangulation, the autopsy stated ligature neck compression http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/1...ature-neck-compression-police-say_a_23310087/

The information released about the autopsy indicated the medical cause of death, it did not state the manner of death, which could be hanging, or strangulation, or getting your scarf caught in an escalator.

 

[Inthedetails]

The the autopsy did not state ligature strangulation, the autopsy stated lugature neck compression http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/1...ature-neck-compression-police-say_a_23310087/

The autopsy indicated the medical cause of death[/B ], it did not state the manner of death, which could be hanging, or strangulation, or getting your scarf caught in an escalator.

That's not correct. Manner of death has a specific definition. The possible manners of death are:
Natural
Accident
Suicide
Homicide
Undetermined

That list of five possibilities are the the only things indicated by Manner of Death.

jmo

 

[Satchie]

*To me the following statement sounds like the legal department is dancing on the head of a pin in their definition of ligature neck compression.

I think Toronto police are following their normal procedure.

A couple weeks ago a woman was found dead in Toronto, medical cause of death was released as "neck compression." At the same time, police declared her death a homicide. Reading between the lines, one assumes manual strangulation, but it's not policy of Toronto police to release that until a trial. http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/tess-richey-homicide-neck-compression-1.4429878

 

[Satchie]

That's not correct. Manner of death has a specific definition. The possible manners of death are:
Natural
Accident
Suicide
Homicide
Undetermined

That list of five possibilities are the the only things indicated by Manner of Death.

jmo

Okay, lets call it physical cause of death, or immediate cause of death, whatever you like. Just don't jump to the conclusion that 'ligature neck compression' excludes hanging.