Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

[andreww]

Haven't seen much mentioned about this but I'll throw it out there. Honey was 5 years younger, seeing a personal trainer, changing hair colour, and lets face it, she looked like a beautiful woman with an old man. What are the possibilities that she was having an affair? Given that he worked constantly and didn't socialize, I'm going to guess that it was extremely possible that Honey was satisfying those needs elsewhere.

 

[andreww]

Thinking aloud here....

It's my guess that hangings are likely unusual in murders because you have to physically lift the body - not an easy task when the body would be fighting for life. In this particular case, it would be two bodies to lift.

But...this hanging was done on a rather low railing. I'm stuck on thinking in the bodies were dangling over the edge of the pool and into the water or open pool if the water was drained (thought that is a hunch, not a fact). If this situation, the perps didn't have to lift the bodies up high to a hanging position.

I remain on the fence with this case. A first I was sure it was murder-suicide, but now I'm open-minded about double murder.

jmo

The pool definitely made it easier. Perhaps Barry strangled Honey in a rage about something. He decides to make it look like a hanging but there is no way for I'm to lift the body completely off the ground to facilitate that. So he uses the pool. Easy, even for a 75 year old man. I had read in an earlier report that Honey may have been killed elsewhere and moved to the pool area.

 

[Tighthead]

Haven't seen much mentioned about this but I'll throw it out there. Honey was 5 years younger, seeing a personal trainer, changing hair colour, and lets face it, she looked like a beautiful woman with an old man. What are the possibilities that she was having an affair? Given that he worked constantly and didn't socialize, I'm going to guess that it was extremely possible that Honey was satisfying those needs elsewhere.

There are pictures of her with different hair colours at different times of her life. I don’t think we can draw anything from that.

While infidelity is always a possibility, many people of that wealthy demographic use personal trainers.

 

[Montrealaise]

Thanks for the link. Kerry states very explicitly that his motivation for suing his cousin was revenge, and does he ever come across as bitter and vindictive. Losing the lawsuit must have been a huge, huge blow.

 

[jillycat]

Thinking aloud here....

It's my guess that hangings are likely unusual in murders because you have to physically lift the body - not an easy task when the body would be fighting for life. In this particular case, it would be two bodies to lift.

But...this hanging was done on a rather low railing. I'm stuck on thinking in the bodies were dangling over the edge of the pool and into the water or open pool if the water was drained (thought that is a hunch, not a fact). If this situation, the perps didn't have to lift the bodies up high to a hanging position.

I remain on the fence with this case. A first I was sure it was murder-suicide, but now I'm open-minded about double murder.

jmo

I don't know what happened in this case, but lifting isn't necessary for hanging because dropping or dangling isn't necessary for death. Partial hangings, where the person is in contact with the ground or some other surface, only require that the head be lower than what is securing the far end of the ligature, and that there's compression. If the person leans or falls toward the device around the neck, loss of consciousness occurs quickly and prevents the person from standing or other wise getting free, and hanging death occurs.

No idea what went on here, but the whole side by side/jacket/sleeves scenario seems really strange. However, we don't know what the overall scene looked like or if it's true that she was killed in another area. But the coroner could certainly tell if where they were found is where they died, and whether or not the ligature scenario where they were found is what caused their death.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

Not sure whether this interview with KW has been put forward already?

“I don’t know if it’s so much about getting five, 10 or X amount of millions. To me this is about, and I know it sounds cliché, it’s really about making Barry Sherman accountable.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ned-cousins-seek-piece-of-apotex-fortune.html

 

[Elley Mae]

Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

How does one hang themself w/ jacket pulled behind their back and rolled down over their arms? Which do you do first.?

 

[Inthedetails]

Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

How does one hang themself w/ jacket pulled behind their back and rolled down over their arms? Which do you do first.?

When I first read "jacket," I was thinking suit jacket. They had men's belts around their necks and I guess I associated that with men's jacket.

Others are mentioning jackets as if they were outdoor jackets, which does make sense for December in Toronto.

But I'm thinking the items were pulled from Barry's closet - belts and jackets. Not a fact, of course.

jmo

 

[deugirtni]

I surely don't blame the family for insisting on a full investigation. Especially with the weirdness of the double hanging. From reading several of the forensic articles, it seems an astute medical examiner can determine the difference between an actual death by hanging and a death made to look like a hanging. It apparently has to do with internal tissue damage patterns.

It sounds like someone in the police department spoke about murder/suicide to a member of the press far sooner than they should have. Especially when the family members had not yet been notified.

Obviously the police have a whole lot more info than we have. Such as what they were wearing, evidence of activity within the house, etc. I thought I read that the real estate agent came to set up for an open house. In that case, the agent would go through the house turning on lights in every room, inside closets, etc.

I am kind of leaning towards the idea that the cops know what they are looking at. This is, after all, what they do for a living. But I also think a very thorough investigation should be conducted. I would want to know if the father had any rope fibers on his hands? And if it were my parents I would want to have a second, independent autopsy on both of them.

Sometimes police seem to come to rush judgements based on how it might look. Recall the Wayne Millard case, whose death was deemed a suicide, but whose son is now awaiting trial on first degree murder charges. (Same police force). It was only after Tim Bosma was also murdered that police went back to revisit the other cases surrounding the accused. Hopefully police in Toronto aren't so overworked and short-handed that they jump to the most obvious conclusion without deep investigation - especially in a case such as this.

 

[deugirtni]

I didn't seek out this thread until now, but wondering on the following:

-Mr wasn't at work on Thursday; lights were on in the pool room; therefore it's possible this happened say on Wed evening? is it known when the last time was that someone had contact with either of the victims?

-what is it about the crime scene that would lead police to believe that it was a murder suicide when it clearly appears to be a double homicide? Simply that there is no sign of forced entry? From what I have thus far read, it seems the 'clues' point in the other direction, of a double homicide. jmo.

-if the cameras in the pool area had been disconnected, does this suggest that the killer may have been someone familiar with the existence and location of such equipment? Also, the fact that the area they were discovered in happens to have no windows might suggest it was someone who knew where the best location would be?

-they were both wearing jackets, that were pulled down over their arms.. does this perhaps suggest the couple may have arrived home together, say on wed evening, and been taken by surprise by someone already inside the home (didn't have time to take 'jackets' off?? - or were they the other type of suit-coat type of jackets (which would presumably work better than perhaps a bulkier winter jacket if trying to use it to lock up their arms)?

-do we know why the home happened to be recently put up for sale? (impending separation?? - that is the first thing that occurred to me when I heard the home was for sale - jmo.) Was this a planned event (selling the home to move... where?, and why?)

 

[MFH]

I’ve always had the feeling this wasn’t murder suicide/double suicide, but that doesn’t mean it cannot be possible. In Birmingham, AL a few years ago, there was a former CEO who staged his own suicide to look like a kidnapping and murder, it was very bizarre, he even restrained himself and planted threatening evidence. Although this just involved one person, not two, but here is a link to an article about it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/US/potato-chip-heir-kills-fakes-murder/story?id=10191433

 

[j_in_c]

Reading back thru this thread a lot of people are questioning why someone choosing suicide would choose partial hanging as the method of death. From reading on the Lyle Stevik case I learned that partial hanging (aka compression hanging) is supposedly a fairly painless, non-violent death - pressure is applied to the carotid artery and you pass out quickly (8-10sec) before dying (sorry if that is too graphic - I certainly don't mean to upset anyone). So if suicide is the correct conclusion, this method is not an unlikely choice.

Given how high profile this case is, I do think it is incredibly important that the police not rule anything out immediately and it does seem highly unusual for two people to decide something so terrible and drastic together. I have to assume that the police will get to the bottom of this and wish peace and closure for their loved ones - if it is suicide, I think that adds a layer to the grief of their loved ones.

 

[Snoop Sister]

I think the family is spinning some stories or getting people to spin stories to maintainthe the integrity of the Sherman name. With the family’s money, I doubt we will ever find out what really happened. I still believe it is a murder - suicide. But, who knows...the facts that we have are reported by unknown sources save for the original report by TPS.

 

[TeaTime]

Hmm. Who held a grudge against these people? The cousin(s).

These 2 were murdered.

 

[Jealoushe]

Barry Sherman doesn't strike me as a dramatic guy given to impulse. This guy was a workaholic, diligent, planned ahead, helped others, a paternalistic type. Plus the two were set to go to Florida within hours - a break from their dull grey environs. He had tuns of lawsuits going all the time - he probably had to sue to "survive" in his competitive business. Hanging just seems counter to this guy's whole MO. Someone - a few people (excluding law enforcement) must know. The "silence is deafening" as the saying goes.

I know people think I'm crazy...but this was definitely a murder - hush kill by someone who has the means to do it easily and disappear.

I don't understand the jackets? Weird.

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It sends a message

Toronto police bungled Laura Babcock, but they got Russell Williams.

Toronto police didnt get Russell Williams, OPP did.

Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

How does one hang themself w/ jacket pulled behind their back and rolled down over their arms? Which do you do first.?

You can't. You can't do much with a jacket around your arms.

Dig into this guys past, his connections. You will find this was to shut him up, I would bet my life it has something to do with child trafficking.

 

[TeaTime]

Hmm. Who held a grudge against these people? The cousin(s).

These 2 were murdered.

I think it is terrible to suggest that this man was greedy or not a nice person because he was a self-made billionaire and didn't like benefit galas. He worked hard his whole life and parlayed a small company into a multi-billion dollar one by selling and re-inventing the business. The cousins got their inheritances, they were employed by him and he bought them houses, etc., but they weren't entitled to a share in his company under any scenario.

I find 'benefit galas' to be miserable events but it doesn't make me a bad person. I would rather send the money and stay home. I have a personal trainer but am not having an affair. I recently had my hair color changed too.

A huge pharmaceutical company is going to be plagued with litigation. It is just a part of doing business. It means nothing.

They cousins were greedy. They wanted something that didn't belong to them and that they didn't work for.

Of course, this is JMHO.

 

[andreww]

Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

How does one hang themself w/ jacket pulled behind their back and rolled down over their arms? Which do you do first.?

Possibly done as an arm restraint so they couldn't try to climb out of the pool and free themselves? So fasten the belt around the neck, pull the jacket down around arms, jump in to pool.

 

[TTF14]

Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

How does one hang themself w/ jacket pulled behind their back and rolled down over their arms? Which do you do first.?

I'm having trouble picturing what this means. Like, the jackets were falling off? They were not zipped/snapped in front and were in a stage of coming off? What does "rolled down over their arms" mean?

 

[dyannaON]

I'm having trouble picturing what this means. Like, the jackets were falling off? They were not zipped/snapped in front and were in a stage of coming off? What does "rolled down over their arms" mean?

Me too. Hurts my brain trying to figure this out.


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[Grey-St]

I know people think I'm crazy...but this was definitely a murder - hush kill by someone who has the means to do it easily and disappear.

Dig into this guys past, his connections. You will find this was to shut him up, I would bet my life it has something to do with child trafficking.

RSBM. RBBM.

You would bet your life on that? Seems way out of left field, imho. But I'm all ears as to how you got to that scenario?