Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12

[Tobiano8th]

i thinks jews tend to be liberal and open-minded on most societal issues.

 

[dotr]

i think Desai leaving Apotex was mentioned in book. if not then TStar........... i can't find the exact page/info i'm looking for... but i think BS supported him when he was facing all those terrible allegations, and then he left Apotex quietly in the time since BS death.

BS really stuck by D, after his death the Apotex board of directors decided D should resign, if BS had not died, he would likely still be the president and CEO of Apotex, as stated in KD's book, page 174.

 

[Tobiano8th]

i think alot of "obvious" potential suspects benefited financially (direct or indirect) from BS being alive. i wouldn't say that eliminates them as plausible perp's but it's a really big factor to consider.

 

[Tobiano8th]

that's for the page #. i tried the index but couldn't find in the few minutes i tried.

 

[kiwi50]

BS really stuck by D, after his death the Apotex board of directors decided D should resign, if BS had not died, he would likely still be the president and CEO of Apotex, as stated in KD's book, page 174.

So BS didnt appear to disapprove of D’s tactics to get information from their competitors.

 

[ldlager]

i think alot of "obvious" potential suspects benefited financially (direct or indirect) from BS being alive. i wouldn't say that eliminates them as plausible perp's but it's a really big factor to consider.

Imo the most “obvious” suspects potential suspects benefitted from bs being dead, not alive. If financial considerations dove these murders, surely those that benefitted most from Barry being alive would probably not represent prime suspects.

 

[Tobiano8th]

that's what i'm saying though.

if you go through "obvious" suspects, what is their relationship to BS and $$$$$? and as i said, directly or indirectly. JK isn't clear it matters either way, but then it turns out it did (after the fact).

might have been my wording. i didn't mean that "most" of the obvious suspects are worse off $$$ now. i just meant there's a bunch of suspects who are much worse off now.

i think you could put the suspects down in two different ways: A) i)friends/close business, ii) family, iii) other (something we don't know about. revenge)....... or you could break it down: relationship to i/ii) BS and $$$$ +/- and iii) again the "other" category.... this is probably obvious.......... and when i say potential suspects i mean "thinking out loud" day 1 potential suspects, not plausible, investigated suspects.. my sense is that's a pretty short list.

edouard safra dying in monte carlo fire is analogous example of potential "other" but then it was his fear of revenge and his nurse's crazy behaviour that killed him, not the revenge of others. safra might have some sort of old age, brain issues too. in safra's case, he feared the russian mafia... very very good books/story if you are interested.

 

[Tobiano8th]

sorry, i lost my train of thought in the last contribution i made.

basically, when i said most obvious suspects, i meant day 1 (or whenever it was determined to be M/M). like a "brainstorming list" for the TPD, and then they probably cleared many people fairly quickly ..............

i didn't mean obvious suspects today. my sense is that's a pretty small list. JMO

 

[deugirtni]

i think alot of "obvious" potential suspects benefited financially (direct or indirect) from BS being alive. i wouldn't say that eliminates them as plausible perp's but it's a really big factor to consider.

Imo the most “obvious” suspects potential suspects benefitted from bs being dead, not alive. If financial considerations dove these murders, surely those that benefitted most from Barry being alive would probably not represent prime suspects.

that's what i'm saying though.
....

RSBM
I got the impression you are each saying the same thing. And I agree. FWIW.

 

[casesensitive]

Imo the most “obvious” suspects potential suspects benefitted from bs being dead, not alive. If financial considerations dove these murders, surely those that benefitted most from Barry being alive would probably not represent prime suspects.

This is the most logical conclusion, and I agree. There is still a tiny chance that someone who had nothing (financially) to gain or lose, was out for revenge for some unknown reason. The only reason I even consider that possibility is the reality of the horrible, cruel, violent method of killing them together. Whoever did it is a sicko who decided to tie them up by their necks to the pool rail for some reason, or someone who thought he was really smart trying to stage it.

 

[deugirtni]

Picture this:

'Person' who is to potentially be a major recipient of 'someone's' estate; the 'someone' dies; perhaps it was *supposed* to look like a double suicide, but police took it wrong (according to 'the plan') and mistook it for a murder suicide.
If murder suicide, then perhaps the now deceased 'someone' who was leaving the most money to the 'person', wouldn't be able to benefit from anything in the 'someone's' spouse's estate whom the 'someone' potentially allegedly murdered, and perhaps that would have the effect of making the 'someone's' estate less than it would've otherwise been. Apparently the someone's spouse has a 'missing Will'.
'Person' hires a lawyer to oversee the police investigation, with an apparent goal of ensuring police conclude it was NOT a murder-suicide.
The 'someone' is a little later determined to also have been murdered, so police are looking at a double murder, rather than the planned staged double-suicide, and the mistaken murder-suicide.
The team of private detectives/lawyer try to do a sharing-of-information thing, offer a humongous reward, with all tips going to the 'person' (via the 'person's' lawyer/PI team).
Cops aren't game and won't be involved in the 'sharing' thing, for *obvious* reasons... Any information has to be a one-way street.
Meanwhile, the 'person's' lawyer is telling the persistent and tenacious investigative reporter who has taken an interest in reporting on the case and has a book in the works, that perhaps *his* sources of information could be the potential murderer, when that could very well be exactly what the 'person's' lawyer is being told by the cops.
Pay it forward.

 

[deugirtni]

Have police ever said that all or any of the family have been cleared? (Not that I can recall?) Is that weird to not clear any of them? I know in some other cases they have declared some or all family as cleared.

 

[dotr]

that's what i'm saying though.

if you go through "obvious" suspects, what is their relationship to BS and $$$$$? and as i said, directly or indirectly. JK isn't clear it matters either way, but then it turns out it did (after the fact).

might have been my wording. i didn't mean that "most" of the obvious suspects are worse off $$$ now. i just meant there's a bunch of suspects who are much worse off now.

i think you could put the suspects down in two different ways: A) i)friends/close business, ii) family, iii) other (something we don't know about. revenge)....... or you could break it down: relationship to i/ii) BS and $$$$ +/- and iii) again the "other" category.... this is probably obvious.......... and when i say potential suspects i mean "thinking out loud" day 1 potential suspects, not plausible, investigated suspects.. my sense is that's a pretty short list.

edouard safra dying in monte carlo fire is analogous example of potential "other" but then it was his fear of revenge and his nurse's crazy behaviour that killed him, not the revenge of others. safra might have some sort of old age, brain issues too. in safra's case, he feared the russian mafia... very very good books/story if you are interested.

O/t Great article by the wonderful Dominick Dunne..
Death in Monaco
December 1, 2000
"On December 3, 1999, in Monte Carlo, Monaco, the multibillionaire banker Edmond J. Safra, along with one of his nurses, died of asphyxiation in a locked, bunker-like bathroom in a conflagration that engulfed his penthouse, atop a building housing the Republic National Bank of New York, which he had made final arrangements to sell a few days previously".

 

[ldlager]

Picture this:

'Person' who is to potentially be a major recipient of 'someone's' estate; the 'someone' dies; perhaps it was *supposed* to look like a double suicide, but police took it wrong (according to 'the plan') and mistook it for a murder suicide.
If murder suicide, then perhaps the now deceased 'someone' who was leaving the most money to the 'person', wouldn't be able to benefit from anything in the 'someone's' spouse's estate whom the 'someone' potentially allegedly murdered, and perhaps that would have the effect of making the 'someone's' estate less than it would've otherwise been. Apparently the someone's spouse has a 'missing Will'.
'Person' hires a lawyer to oversee the police investigation, with an apparent goal of ensuring police conclude it was NOT a murder-suicide.
The 'someone' is a little later determined to also have been murdered, so police are looking at a double murder, rather than the planned staged double-suicide, and the mistaken murder-suicide.
The team of private detectives/lawyer try to do a sharing-of-information thing, offer a humongous reward, with all tips going to the 'person' (via the 'person's' lawyer/PI team).
Cops aren't game and won't be involved in the 'sharing' thing, for *obvious* reasons... Any information has to be a one-way street.
Meanwhile, the 'person's' lawyer is telling the persistent and tenacious investigative reporter who has taken an interest in reporting on the case and has a book in the works, that perhaps *his* sources of information could be the potential murderer, when that could very well be exactly what the 'person's' lawyer is being told by the cops.
Pay it forward.

I will need just a bit of time to figure this out...

 

[ldlager]

Picture this:

'Person' who is to potentially be a major recipient of 'someone's' estate; the 'someone' dies; perhaps it was *supposed* to look like a double suicide, but police took it wrong (according to 'the plan') and mistook it for a murder suicide.
If murder suicide, then perhaps the now deceased 'someone' who was leaving the most money to the 'person', wouldn't be able to benefit from anything in the 'someone's' spouse's estate whom the 'someone' potentially allegedly murdered, and perhaps that would have the effect of making the 'someone's' estate less than it would've otherwise been. Apparently the someone's spouse has a 'missing Will'.
'Person' hires a lawyer to oversee the police investigation, with an apparent goal of ensuring police conclude it was NOT a murder-suicide.
The 'someone' is a little later determined to also have been murdered, so police are looking at a double murder, rather than the planned staged double-suicide, and the mistaken murder-suicide.
The team of private detectives/lawyer try to do a sharing-of-information thing, offer a humongous reward, with all tips going to the 'person' (via the 'person's' lawyer/PI team).
Cops aren't game and won't be involved in the 'sharing' thing, for *obvious* reasons... Any information has to be a one-way street.
Meanwhile, the 'person's' lawyer is telling the persistent and tenacious investigative reporter who has taken an interest in reporting on the case and has a book in the works, that perhaps *his* sources of information could be the potential murderer, when that could very well be exactly what the 'person's' lawyer is being told by the cops.
Pay it forward.

Perhaps honeys will dispaaeared from the house in the 90 minutes between the time when the bodies were found and family members were called, and when the police were called?

 

[deugirtni]

Perhaps honeys will dispaaeared from the house in the 90 minutes between the time when the bodies were found and family members were called, and when the police were called?

Yes... I'm thinking it may have disappeared just a few hours earlier than that.

 

[casesensitive]

Have police ever said that all or any of the family have been cleared? (Not that I can recall?) Is that weird to not clear any of them? I know in some other cases they have declared some or all family as cleared.

From what I have noted in most cases, LE will clear people from their list of POI's and suspects due to them having a corroborated alibi, or not being a match with the DNA evidence at the crime scene. But this information is part of their investigation and is rarely made public.

I wouldn't expect TPS to publicly clear anybody in this case. Not that they would anyway, but what proof do they have that the a family member wasn't involved while they continue their investigation? To answer your question, it's not weird that the family hasn't been publicly cleared publicly. IMO

 

[Tobiano8th]

do not start reading Dominique Dunne. it is a gigantic, engrossing time sink....... i might re-read his book on safra/monte carlo............ he and safra's widow were not friends. massive understatement, i'd say. Dunne even wrote a Roman à clef on Lily Safra. wikipedia: Roman à clef (French pronunciation: [ʁɔmɑ̃n‿a kle], anglicised as /roʊˌmɒn ə ˈkleɪ/[1]), French for novel with a key, is a novel about real life, overlaid with a façade of fiction.[2] ............ interestingly, i read a few times that BS and his dispute with nancy olivetti (name? olivari?) inspired John LeCarre's Constant Gardener.

Safra is a good example of the person causing his death being of the "other" suspect category (not family, friend, obvious potential motive). and his fear of the russian mafia was of the "other" category too...... something that wasn't necessarily obvious (although it had media coverage).

i think there are now a small number of suspects for HS/BS but i do think the "other" category never goes away unless the evidence is overwhelming and not mostly circumstantial...... and any defense attorney will be very interesting in the "other" category.

 

[Tobiano8th]

wouldn't a lawyer have BS and HS will?................ do they even need wills if they died first (under normal circumstances)?.

of course, the whole tragedy of the winter cousins is that their mother and father both died in a very short period (one unexpectedly, and neither very old)......... sadly ironic in fact. although they died weeks apart, i think..

one thing from the book that is interesting is that a number of people fairly close to BS think he should have done more for his cousins and much earlier. barry, of course, would rightly say he was very young himself. and a big problem was that the winters mother wanted the kids raised jewish, even though there was probably a better non-jewish option (in fact one of those people was recently paying a winter's cousin rent, i presume with no expectation of repayment). fyi, the winter mother had converted to judaism when she got married....... not sure i will be able to find page number on that as i can't think of any really good "key words. and my comments reference at least 2 sections and probably TStar stuff not in book.

 

[Tobiano8th]

i think people have had comments way back...... but with HS and BS married for so long, wouldn't almost everything be effectively considered "community property" if HS petitioned for such (when both were alive, or if only BS had died recently)

it's like when aaron spelling died, all kinds of legit news outlets made note that aaron barely left tori (or brother randy) anything ($500K each or something like that) ..... but of course, tori's mother candy got (or just kept) everything. and i think this is super-standard where the widow is the children's mother i.e. long-married couple on first marriage.