Canada - Connor, 6, & Noah Barthe, 4, killed by python, Campbellton, NB, 5 Aug 2013

[Ausgirl]

The snake had gotten out before...

"Barely able to keep the anger out of his voice, Bry Loyst, curator of the Indian River Reptile Zoo, told QMI Agency that Monday wasn't the first time the African rock python had made its way into the ventilation system.

"This was an accident waiting to happen," said Loyst, who was en route to Campbellton, about 475 km north of Saint John."

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/06/pet-store-owner-in-shock-python-kills-two-kids-in-new-brunswick


I am inclined to just ignore anything that comes out of Savoie's mouth altogether, presently. Aside from a few mouthed platitudes, all he's done is cover his own *advertiser censored* by utterly minimising what happened (whatever actually did happen). I have not read a single word of apology. I guess it's hard to to do that when avoiding justifiable blame.

Roll on, autopy report. I just really want to see justice for these two beautiful little boys.

 

[Wondergirl]

Unbearably sad and depressing.

Their poor Mother. Omg.

Rest in Peace, sweet boys.

I wish I could bring you back.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sleep-New-Brunswick-Canada.html#ixzz2b91RRQKs

 

[Ausgirl]

I'm transcribing some of the direct verbal statements made from Savoie in the report linked linked below. BBM.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23587612

Reporter: And was the snake still there this morning, when you went in to check on them?

Jean-Claude Savoie: Well, he wasn't near them, no. At first I didn't even realise.. I thought they were sleeping, until I saw the hole in the ceiling. Everything had fallen, and I turned the lights on and I saw this horrific scene and the snake was gone. But I found the snake, it was in a hole underneath the.. another spot there. And.. I pinned him down, and put him a cage.. *snipped comment here, about snake being euthanised*"

later:

Reporter: Have you ever had any problems with it before?

Savoie: Never. *he goes on about how vicious and crazy the snake is, then, and how they had to handle it cautiously when doing maintenance -- end snip*

He also deftly avoids any mention that this 'vicious', 'crazy' snake was housed right next to the place where two small kids were sleeping.

Just demonstrating the *advertiser censored*-covering, here. Thing is, now he can't avoid being charged with negligence, as that is what this plainly is (so far..), it's come out that he lied and the snake had indeed escaped before.

So he says. IYKWIM.

This case has me properly riled. Can you tell? :B

 

[nao]

Ahh - the snake did know escape was possible - i think it was jurrasic park movie- the fella said with the Velociraptor - "THEY REMEMBER"

the snake escaped, it has a total different mind set of being caged and fed food, if snakes have fun this was probably the best day it ever had - the hunting instead of just being fed. It did not hunt the boys, it was just -excited- the boys moved - you could of stuck a 2x4 piece of wood in front of the snake- move it just a bit- and it would of wrapped it.
matou - james bogart knows theory - imagine a hunting dog that has not seen freedom in 5 years, it escapes - domestic snakes and wild- its not the same- domestic snakes are much more reactionary

 

[matou]

He will be charged with something, no doubt in my mind. wow.

 

[Hamsterdance]

Unbearably sad and depressing.

Their poor Mother. Omg.

Rest in Peace, sweet boys.

I wish I could bring you back.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sleep-New-Brunswick-Canada.html#ixzz2b91RRQKs

Heartbreaking :cry: This never should have happened. Those sweet boys remind me so much of my own at that age....happy, best friends, doing everything together. My heart goes out to their parents.

 

[matou]

The boys' mom would have gotten an award from me for mother of the year, I wish I could comfort her somehow, my God.

 

[nao]

but matou - he had the snake for years, the boys parent knew there was the big snake there. If it was the snake, unless he let the snake loose, it is an accident. jmo

 

[Ausgirl]

Tbh I am trying hard not to empathise too much with their mother right now, as it's just too horrible and I'll cry.

My question now, re my post on Savoie's comments above, is -- the snake was "underneath" WHAT?

We've established that lying and minimising isn't beneath this man - note how he deftly steps right over mentioning the exact location of the snake.

He says it wasn't 'near' them. It was 'underneath the.... (pause) .. another spot there' . In a hole of some description, somewhere he doesn't want to mention. Clearly a big enough hole that he could get into it and wrangle the snake out, apparently.

Methinks naming that location is being avoided for a reason.

1. It would clearly incriminate him for negligence. OR

2. It would undermine his story of a snake attack in some way.

 

[musicaljoke]

What beautiful boys! This is absolutely heartbreaking.

From what I've read about the house/store, I don't believe that I would have allowed my kids to go there overnight. Thoughts of the children being killed might be far from my mind. Instead I'd be worried about a few other things.

 

[matou]

but matou - he had the snake for years, the boys parent knew there was the big snake there. If it was the snake, unless he let the snake loose, it is an accident. jmo

The snake got out before apparently, it is illegal for that snake to be in NB in the first place and his apartment is likely illegal too. IF the snake did it, that is. I have NOTHING against snakes at all. I have a tattoo of a snake (whoops, TMI), I think snakes are beautiful creatures. This guy should be charged and I truly feel bad the snake was put down before it was publicly announced whether the snake played a part in the death of Noah and Connor.

 

[nao]

if it was a pony or horse - they do kill off quite a few humans each year - accidents happen. Accidents do happen, unless he did not lock down the snake as he usually does, yea having a big snake is not common. but obviously no one saw a danger, because there really was'nt one. jmo moo

 

[nao]

but matou - they have to kill the snake because there is few places that will take them. it does not matter, as long as he locked down the snake as usual, why would anyone see the children in danger- if a snake knows escape is possible they never stop trying.(i did experiance that)
Its very sad for the parent, but dog bites, car accidents, swimming, snake , unless he was negligent in the cage lockdown, i would think he is as shocked as everyone jmo moo

 

[Hamsterdance]

It's no accident that he had that snake where it shouldn't have been in the first place. Looking forward to the results and charges.

 

[gitana1]

I never had a problem with snakes, until hubby was bitten by a Copperhead in April. Now they give me the heebie Jeebies.

I never heard the update on how that turned out. I just knew he survived, thank God!

Python had to slither up two stories in order to be in the ceiling of the second story apartment over the pet store. IMO, that would in itself made noise in the ductwork. I'm also having a hard time believing that the boys just happen to be lying so close together that the snake managed to constrict around both of them simultaneously thereby preventing either boy to cry out or run away. Then, after constricting and crushing the boys causing suffocation, the snake doesn't eat either one of them. I would imagine that the snake was a bit spooked falling from the ceiling and landing on the floor and most likely would have been in an aggressive mode, striking out to the boys and biting them. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't constrictors usually squeeze their prey to kill the prey as well as to prepare it for easier swallowing? They hold the prey with their teeth until they can wrap aroung them. From the owner's story, he did not become aware of what had happened until 6:30 am so why didn't the snake eat their prey?

Yeah, there's a lot about this that doesn;t make much sense.

Makes the whole vent scenario even stranger. If the snake escaped and smelled food (assuming that it went after the boys because they smelled like the animals they petted at the zoo earlier), then it would have gone straight for them...no need to sneak through ventilation systems at all.

Unless barred by a door. If the door was in the way then he could get to them via the vents.

from solitaryone #170

In an interview on Monday, Savoie said a government wildlife agency gave him the snake to take care of more than a decade ago, and took it in reluctantly.

“I didn’t even want the snake,” Savoie said, “but I didn’t want to see it euthanized.”

I think any big snakes you see in canada are going to be older snakes, they changed the rules quite some time ago.

if i had the choice of death by dog or snake, i'd choose snake. When snakes escape they always stay close to the walls, then go up or under, i blocked my vent system because of my snakes(i had electric and wood options) but my snakes escaped quite often, no matter how well i locked things down, i always found them, except for one who went thru the venting, he dehydrated. I did not have giant breed snakes.

What would be the reason for the man to hurt the children?

BBM. I don't know. But what would be the reason for any number of horrific crimes we see on here? Why did Jonathan Foster's killer kill him? Or Danielle Van Dam's? Etc., etc.

The snake had gotten out before...

"Barely able to keep the anger out of his voice, Bry Loyst, curator of the Indian River Reptile Zoo, told QMI Agency that Monday wasn't the first time the African rock python had made its way into the ventilation system.

"This was an accident waiting to happen," said Loyst, who was en route to Campbellton, about 475 km north of Saint John."

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/06/pet-store-owner-in-shock-python-kills-two-kids-in-new-brunswick


I am inclined to just ignore anything that comes out of Savoie's mouth altogether, presently. Aside from a few mouthed platitudes, all he's done is cover his own *advertiser censored* by utterly minimising what happened (whatever actually did happen). I have not read a single word of apology. I guess it's hard to to do that when avoiding justifiable blame.

Roll on, autopy report. I just really want to see justice for these two beautiful little boys.

Not only is he unapologetic, his friends and supporters seem kind of crass. Apparently they were hanging around his shop being rude and flipping off the media:

Some people, believed to be relatives or friends of the store owner, Jean-Claude Savoie, were hostile toward the media, including making rude hand gestures. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2013/08/06/nb-snake-boys-campbellton-mayor.html

Ahh - the snake did know escape was possible - i think it was jurrasic park movie- the fella said with the Velociraptor - "THEY REMEMBER"

the snake escaped, it has a total different mind set of being caged and fed food, if snakes have fun this was probably the best day it ever had - the hunting instead of just being fed. It did not hunt the boys, it was just -excited- the boys moved - you could of stuck a 2x4 piece of wood in front of the snake- move it just a bit- and it would of wrapped it.
matou - james bogart knows theory - imagine a hunting dog that has not seen freedom in 5 years, it escapes - domestic snakes and wild- its not the same- domestic snakes are much more reactionary

I totally appreciate your knowledge as a snake owner. It is a needed perspective. But it does vary from what snake experts are saying:

Adding to the pile of unanswered questions, herpetologists, snake breeders and those who own snakes as pets are unconvinced by claims that the snake hunted the boys down.
“I’m totally skeptical,” said Johan Marais, who has written multiple books on these snakes and runs the African Snakebite Institute.
“It just sounds very, very strange. The fact that we don’t know if there was evidence of one kid being bitten, it’s puzzling that the two would be bitten,” he said Tuesday from Pretoria, South Africa.
African rock snakes, found in evergreen forests and open savannahs from Côte d’Ivoire to Ethiopia, do not just constrict their prey — first, they bite in order to anchor the animal they’re hunting down (anything from rats to antelopes, and they could easily fell an adult). Then, they begin to constrict, coiling around the body, damaging muscles, squeezing the air out of the lungs, causing cardiac arrest and then death, Mr. Marais said. Then, they eat their prey head first.
But they don’t eat very often — just a few times a year — and snakes held in captivity, like this one, are typically “overfed,” he said.
“Snakes don’t kill for fun,” Mr. Marais said. “It takes far too much energy.”


Jay Brewer describes the African rock python as among the most “misunderstood” constrictors he’s ever encountered.

“I’m not going to sit here and tell you it’s impossible, but it’s really out of character for a snake not to bite and constrict and it’s really out of character for two victims and not just one.”
The snake would have also had to wrap its body around horizontally lying children, if they were sleeping during an attack — another unlikelihood, he said, considering a snake bite from a constrictor would elicit blood-curdling screams, waking anyone sleeping nearby.


What happened in New Brunswick is “tragic,” [said Corey Woods, a snake breeder in Guelph, Ont., who primarily breeds ball pythons], adding he, too, is skeptical of how these children could have been killed by a snake in their sleep if all 100 lbs of it tumbled from a ceiling vent (“that’s like a sack full of bowling balls,” he said).
“We really need to find out exactly what happened — was the python really responsible for this?” http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...perts-baffled-by-new-brunswick-python-attack/



But reptile experts expressed skepticism over the incident, saying it would be extremely rare for a constrictor to attack two young boys.
"It's difficult to believe," said David Rodrigue, director of Montreal's Ecomuseum Zoo.


This type of accident would be "an isolated case and very, very extraordinary, and very improbable," he said.
Pythons typically only bite to defend themselves and use strangulation solely for their prey.
"Strangling is really linked to the feeding of the animal," Rodrigue said, explaining the behavior "is stimulated by hunger and by the odor of the prey."http://news.discovery.com/animals/pets/escaped-python-kills-children-130806.htm

Heartbreaking :cry: This never should have happened. Those sweet boys remind me so much of my own at that age....happy, best friends, doing everything together. My heart goes out to their parents.

They are lovely. Here's one more precious photo:

but matou - he had the snake for years, the boys
parent knew there was the big snake there. If it was the snake, unless he let the snake loose, it is an accident. jmo

Yes but some accidents are the result of negligence.

Tbh I am trying hard not to empathise too much with their mother right now, as it's just too horrible and I'll cry.

My question now, re my post on Savoie's comments above, is -- the snake was "underneath" WHAT?

We've established that lying and minimising isn't beneath this man - note how he deftly steps right over mentioning the exact location of the snake.

He says it wasn't 'near' them. It was 'underneath the.... (pause) .. another spot there' . In a hole of some description, somewhere he doesn't want to mention. Clearly a big enough hole that he could get into it and wrangle the snake out, apparently.

Methinks naming that location is being avoided for a reason.

1. It would clearly incriminate him for negligence. OR

2. It would undermine his story of a snake attack in some way.

I do wonder, however, if some of the "odd" things this man has said are simply due to language issues. That does happen quite a bit.

 

[matou]

This particular python’s enclosure, made of wood, fibreglass and epoxy with a thick glass display window, was built to hold crocodilians, MacDonald said. Its previous inhabitant was a much larger anaconda. So it should have been strong enough to hold this snake.

Each of these enclosures also had vents in the top linking up to a ventilation system to help the animals breathe, MacDonald said.

http://globalnews.ca/news/764130/py...-enclosure-near-where-they-slept-friend-says/

So the fb photos I've seen are of the same enclosure that held the anaconda. The three boys have been inside of that enclosure (fb). There are large holes on the top that look like light fixtures or real sunlight coming in, I'm not sure. The hole(s) don't look small to me. JMO

 

[Ausgirl]

I do wonder, however, if some of the "odd" things this man has said are simply due to language issues. That does happen quite a bit.

Gitana, he hasn't got an accent which suggests a language barrier at all.

Nao - I really do feel bad the snake had to be killed, too. Such a beautiful animal. Not it's fault it was owned by an idiot.

And we must agree to disagree on that point. I think Savoie -was- acting idiotically, at very best. Illegal animal, in an enclosure never built for its species, known to escape and be aggressive, in a room with easy access to two children who probably still smelled like cuddly lambs and other yummy things. Idiot. IMO.

IF the snake was really the killer. That is.

 

[Steely Dan]

I am sorry, But snakes need to be outlawed as pets. My son wanted one when he came home from Japan and I told him *Not in my house*!!

I would have yelled that, and then I would have him taken for a drug test for even thinking he could.

I never had a problem with snakes, until hubby was bitten by a Copperhead in April. Now they give me the heebie Jeebies.

Ok there are two possible answers here;

1. You're hubby survived and you are both now happy and healthy.

2. Your husband passed away and you are living large on the $2,000,000 life insurance policy you bought on him just days before the "unfortunate" bite.

Jeez, I gotta get out of this board's mindset every now and again. :floorlaugh:

:floorlaugh: I worked in La Place, Louisianna in the late seventies and in La Place was a huge retile farm/zoo. It had the largest pythons I've ever seen. I worked a shutdown at the local power plant and rented a mobile home in a park nearby. One morning as we were leaving for work we heard a woman screaming hysterically in the trailer park. People ran to the trailer where the screaming was and found out that the woman got up to make coffee and found a huge python lying across her kitchen counter. Police were called and someone came immediately from the reptile zoo to capture the snake. We moved to another place after that. No one could figure out how on earth the snake got into the mobile home. It was about twelve feet in length.

BBM

I hate you!! But I don't mean that in a bad way. Oh, hell yes I do. I'm gonna have the willies all night and I haven't seen a snake around here for the 13 years I've lived here.













:snake: :scared:

 

[gitana1]

Gitana, he hasn't got an accent which suggests a language barrier at all.

Nao - I really do feel bad the snake had to be killed, too. Such a beautiful animal. Not it's fault it was owned by an idiot.

And we must agree to disagree on that point. I think Savoie -was- acting idiotically, at very best. Illegal animal, in an enclosure never built for its species, known to escape and be aggressive, in a room with easy access to two children who probably still smelled like cuddly lambs and other yummy things. Idiot. IMO.

IF the snake was really the killer. That is.

I finally found and listened to the interview he gave. Yeah, you're right. I hear a Canadian accent but nothing that would suggest he is unfamiliar with English, or not fluent. Here's the link: http://globalnews.ca/news/762560/escaped-python-strangles-kills-two-children-in-new-brunswick/

He does sound failry unemotional but he also sounds a tad bit defensive. I felt the interviewer should have been someone older and more experienced. She sounded like a 20 year old who didn't know what to ask. I think someone else may have gotten more out of him.

I will say that from what I heard, he did not sound suspicious to me. He just sounded like a type of guy I have met before. Maybe not book smart, but not stupid. Not used to dealing with a lot of emotion. Defensive somewhat but also a bit in shock.

I;m not saying I think it all happened as he said. But nothing really alarmed me in the call itself. I wonder what the police know.

 

[nao]

Snake poop smells like death - that was what i did not like- but snakes are not fed every day, every week or couple of weeks or once a month. Venting system good idea.
My snakes, 2 of them(the others excepted cage life even though the others absconded) they remembered , and they would push, this big snake had probably been pushing at a weakness for years.
I just read a paper on snakes, it said they have no intelligence, brains are too small. maybe they could explain to me why i could sit outside with my african house snake, it would'nt take off and it would follow me home (freaked me out) it also escaped quite often, very friendly snake, it liked to sit on top of my head(thats heat seeking)

you can't really tell a snake to attack unlike a dog, if the parent wants to lay blame for the snake attack, then thats their call, but maybe they would just like to let their children rest. jmo