Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #10

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Personally, I think if they were both dead they would have been found by the FLIR. Someone earlier had posted info. that IIRC even a deceased person could be found upto about a week later, because of insects.

* I don't believe they would have burned the RAV4, without having another vehicle.
* To assume they ran out of gas after putting in $20, would basically require them to be out of gas at the gas station.
* In rural areas, you gas up early, because gas stations can be great distances apart, so you don't run low.
* RAV4 was burned Monday night, they were not even suspects yet until sometime on Tues.
* It would have taken hours to get the logistics & roadlocks in place.
* Although nobody has reported a stolen vehicle, well there could be a reasons why not...
 
SiciC said:
The RAV4 was found actively burning on the evening of Monday, July 22. They weren't named as suspects until mid Tuesday, July 23. They had nearly a day to make some headway, either far into the woods, or out of the area before anyone would've been looking for them out there or even knew who they were. They were considered missing in BC, no would be keeping eyes out in Manitoba for them. That's evidenced by the fact that they strolled into a gas station in Split Lake and the clerk lady had no idea who they were yet, described them as "normal". There wouldn't have been a whole lot of police activity up there looking for them immediately either, they would've had to identify the vehicle first and assemble a team to go out there. So who knows, theoretically they could have well left the area in that time between burning the SUV, and the next day when they were named as suspects and put on blast in the media.
Click to expand...

I read (can't confirm source right now) that there were no trains that left the area between the RAV4 burning and them being named as suspects, and all further trains were searched at each stop. There's only one road from Gillam that connects it to other parts of Canada (there are ice roads in the winter going east, but not this time of year), and that road has at least one checkpoint as we know. No further confirmed sightings of them were reported after the 23rd despite at least three confirmed sightings (stuck car, general store, alcohol checkpoint) being reported from before they were named as murder suspects. Also, they would have had to get transportation somehow to get out of the area and there haven't been any further murders or stolen cars reported in the area. They left an obvious trail the rest of the journey when they easily could have gotten away with the murders if they wanted to, so why would they suddenly go from leaving evidence everywhere to absolutely nothing? In my opinion it's because they left a trail of evidence on purpose so people would know it was them that did it, and now there's no more evidence because they enacted their "plan" and the end of that plan was their deaths.
 
NJSleuth91 said:
I read (can't confirm source right now) that there were no trains that left the area between the RAV4 burning and them being named as suspects, and all further trains were searched at each stop. There's only one road from Gillam that connects it to other parts of Canada (there are ice roads in the winter going east, but not this time of year), and that road has at least one checkpoint as we know. No further confirmed sightings of them were reported after the 23rd despite at least three confirmed sightings (stuck car, general store, alcohol checkpoint) being reported from before they were named as murder suspects. Also, they would have had to get transportation somehow to get out of the area and there haven't been any further murders or stolen cars reported in the area. They left an obvious trail the rest of the journey when they easily could have gotten away with the murders if they wanted to, so why would they suddenly go from leaving evidence everywhere to absolutely nothing? In my opinion it's because they left a trail of evidence on purpose so people would know it was them that did it, and now there's no more evidence because they enacted their "plan" and the end of that plan was their deaths.
Click to expand...

Maybe this is the most reasonable explanation at this point. Unless they somehow got someone to fly them out of there or somehow got away by boat (apparently unlikely), then the possibilities are dwindling.
 
MistyWaters said:
I’ve certainly never noticed young men running around looking as if they’re prepared for combat. That definitely would raise eyebrows and result in a flurry of 911 calls IMO. Photos like that are probably taken in the basements of their home to impress their peer group of international gaming friends. JMO.
Click to expand...

Strange generalizations indeed!
How do Canadians learn about people from coast to coast to coast? They watch: https://www.cbc.ca/stillstanding/episodes/
 
Dee10 said:
Personally, I think if they were both dead they would have been found by the FLIR. Someone earlier had posted info. that IIRC even a deceased person could be found upto about a week later, because of insects.

* I don't believe they would have burned the RAV4, without having another vehicle.
* To assume they ran out of gas after putting in $20, would basically require them to be out of gas at the gas station.
* In rural areas, you gas up early, because gas stations can be great distances apart, so you don't run low.
* RAV4 was burned Monday night, they were not even suspects yet until sometime on Tues.
* It would have taken hours to get the logistics & roadlocks in place.
* Although nobody has reported a stolen vehicle, well there could be a reasons why not...
Click to expand...

I’ll see if I can find the link but one of the talking heads interviewed regarding possible search and find prospects for the pair expressed doubt FLIR would locate them if they were dead. I’d imagine it involves a time factor and when death took place ie hours versus days because my understanding is FLIR detects only body heat. Upon discovering a dead body, that upon touch he or she is cold is often described as a feature of determining death.

ETA - BBM
“...Sherry Benson-Podolchuck, a retired RCMP officer, also believes that it’s possible the men may have died.

“If they’re out there in the bush, they’re probably running out of food and water and the bugs would be absolutely tormenting,” she told CTV News Channel. “I can’t imagine surviving too much longer without much help.”

“If they’ve died, they wouldn’t find them through thermal imaging because of course your temperature goes down,” she added.

RCMP 'unable to confirm' sighting of B.C. murder suspects in Manitoba town
 
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tcfpne said:
Now this is definitely something. Thompson isn't that far, they could've made it there from Gillam. RCMP states that he may be headed to Toronto area. Maybe he is their ride? He is missing since before the other dates, so who knows?

MOO: They intended to go to Gillam, MB or that general area because once they were done with their crimes in BC they had assistance waiting for them.

Why drive thousands of kilometres to Gillam, MB to dissapear, unless there was someone or something waiting for them there?
Click to expand...

Isn't there an assumption here, though? The vehicle definitely arrived in Gillam because it was found torched there. But there has never been any (reported) sign of the fugitives at that location, despite the allocation of significant LE and military resources. I continue to consider the possibility that not only was the car stolen once, by the boys but it was stolen twice, the second time by somebody else. 2018 LE stats 3,100 vehicles stolen in Manitoba. Entirely possible, IMO, that neither of the fugitives were ever in Gillam. Presumably LE has evidence that proves otherwise, though.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/car-theft-keys-left-in-vehicles-1.4988218
 
VIA rail to Churchill left at 11:30pm Monday from Gillam, however they were approximately 70kms from Gillam (@ 7pm) where the car was burnt. Ferry from Split Lake was done running for the day and didn't run again on Tuesday. No trains running south until Wednesday.
A local said road blocks set up between 5pm Tuesday night and 6 am Wednesday morning
 
MistyWaters said:
I’ll see if I can find the link but one of the talking heads interviewed regarding possible search and find prospects for the pair expressed doubt FLIR would locate them if they were dead. I’d imagine it involves a time factor and when death took place ie hours versus days because my understanding is FLIR detects only body heat.
Click to expand...
It detects heat in general, and significant insect activity on a deceased person can make them detectable for a few weeks. However, FLIR effectiveness can also be impacted by dense forest overhead. I previously posted a video of a guy bolting after his car was disabled via spike belt, and he's highly visible until he gets in the dense woods:

 
MistyWaters said:
I’ll see if I can find the link but one of the talking heads interviewed regarding possible search and find prospects for the pair expressed doubt FLIR would locate them if they were dead. I’d imagine it involves a time factor and when death took place ie hours versus days because my understanding is FLIR detects only body heat. Upon discovering a dead body, that upon touch he or she is cold is often described as a feature of determining death.

ETA - BBM
“...Sherry Benson-Podolchuck, a retired RCMP officer, also believes that it’s possible the men may have died.

“If they’re out there in the bush, they’re probably running out of food and water and the bugs would be absolutely tormenting,” she told CTV News Channel. “I can’t imagine surviving too much longer without much help.”

“If they’ve died, they wouldn’t find them through thermal imaging because of course your temperature goes down,” she added.

RCMP 'unable to confirm' sighting of B.C. murder suspects in Manitoba town
Click to expand...
Interesting read here:
https://upsondowns.vpweb.com.au/upload/Forensic Investigation.pdf
 
<modsnip: quoted post was removed>



Wasn't the surveillance video footage at some kind of camping supply store or "general store" in a remote town? In that case it could have been mistaken for a hunting outfit (and I assume that's probably what the manufacturers of the outfit originally intended it for) and would be in any rural area in Canada or the US.



I think the reason why some people believe he was the leader is because: a) Bryer doesn't have a driver's license and Kam does, and Kam was doing all the driving according to the confirmed sightings, b) in the surveillance footage, Kam was walking in front and seemed more confident looking straight ahead, while Bryer was more nervous and fidgety.



I think the possibilities at this point are:

a) Still alive and in the northern Manitoba wilderness, with very few resources, living a survivalist existence. Which would be an amazing feat for two fairly sheltered teenagers to pull off (both evading detection and surviving this long) given what the police have said about how unforgiving the environment is -- and in which case, what is their long-term plan, especially when winter comes?

b) Escaped to another region of Canada without any help. Would be nearly impossible to do considering the police have been monitoring the roads, railways, etc. out since right after the RAV4 was found -- again would be very surprising if they did this.

c) Escaped somewhere else with help. In that case, who is helping them and why, how did the police not find any evidence of help (or did they and they're not releasing it?), etc. -- this doesn't really fit into Occam's razor of the general spree killer profile.

d) Died in the wilderness due to exposure, drowning, or any number of other causes (there were heavy freezing rains the day after they burned the RAV4 and the police said it would have been very difficult for them to endure). Possible and if so, high chance they will never be recovered.

e) Planned to commit suicide in the remote wilderness so they would never be found and nobody would know what happened to them, the most "cinematic" and attention-getting ending of all possible options as I mentioned, and therefore appealing to teen killers. Possible and if so, high chance they will never be recovered.[/QUOTE]

I believe d) or e). Been following since the beginning. IMO
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Renata D'Aliesio‏ @RenataDAliesio
Gillam's mayor and town are working to set up a community meeting in wake of RCMP announcing scale back of search for two men wanted in triple homicide. Residents have a lot of questions, he says, and there have not been a lot of answers. #canadamanhunt #canadianmanhunt

8:50 AM - 1 Aug 2019 pst

Renata D'Aliesio‏ @RenataDAliesio
Community meeting in Gillam will take place tomorrow at 5:30 pm. RCMP, Gillam mayor and council, and Fox Lake chief and council will be there to share information on next steps and answer residents' questions. @globeandmail will be at the meeting #canadianmanhunt #Canadamanhunt

1:25 PM - 1 Aug 2019 pst
 
JuneBug67 said:
It detects heat in general, and significant insect activity on a deceased person can make them detectable for a few weeks. However, FLIR effectiveness can also be impacted by dense forest overhead. I previously posted a video of a guy bolting after his car was disabled via spike belt, and he's highly visible until he gets in the dense woods:

Click to expand...

This is a great video, thank you for sharing! If BS and KM were bunkered down in hiding, there is no way they could be detected using FLIR in the dense shrubbery they are suspected as being in.

You would think that in 2019, we would have technology readily available for LE in situations such as this. It's crazy!
 
Dee10 said:
Former classmates of northern B.C. murder suspect say he would describe killing himself, others

"RCMP in Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario all put out alerts Wednesday, warning people that both teens could be in their provinces, and to call police if they’re spotted."
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. It includes a video interview of a pretty insightful classmate who states exactly what he said, why they didn't think much of it at the time (I mean they were 13), and why in retrospect it's significant.

Let me just say that if this is considered normal and just how kids talk nowadays? I have zero hope for our world.
 
gitana1 said:
Geez. That's normal.
Click to expand...

Isn't this gun chopping head thing from an unnamed person who alleges one of the suspects made these remarks 6-7 years ago? I think we can take it with a grain of salt. If there was any substance to it, the witness would be named and it should have been addressed at the time the remarks were made - not years later when the person who allegedly made the comment is a murder suspect.
 
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