Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[NJSleuth91]

It could be possible KM bought it legally. But how would gun stores verify the sale of a specific gun if they don’t have the serial numbers. Even if it was bought and sold from someone else at a legit store and then sold privately later on the store would need the serial to track it. A bill of sale or PAL check in document/records control seems like a big ask to dig even two years worth to find a name. Plus it could be a store in another city for all we know. But computer systems at these retailers can probably pull up serial numbers pretty easy.

Would it have been from a gun store though? Or do you think it would have been from an individual seller? It's possible the police are asking around gun stores in the area with the serial numbers but just not releasing them publicly. I'm sure they have asked around all the local stores. Are there gun shows in Canada?

I have to say, I've thought quite a bit about what it means that Kam shot Bryer. I mean, it seems this was the moment Bryer had been waiting for, when he finally gets to do this thing he has long fantasized about, and then he doesn't do it. What's up with that? Was he unable to and asked for assistance? Or did Kam surprise him?

I guess we will never know.

It sounds from the report like they described their plan to do this on one of the videos (probably video #4). I wonder if they gave a reason for it in that video (probably not because when did they ever give a reason for anything). "Based on the autopsy findings, the firearms lab report, analysis of the scene and the content of the videos it is believed that McLeod shot Schmegelsky before shooting himself in a suicide pact."

As for why...well I actually predicted back when their bodies were found that it would turn out Kam shot Bryer in an assisted suicide. I'm still amazed that I predicted that! My reasoning for it at the time was that Bryer seemed kind of nervous and twitchy in the surveillance footage as well as the witness accounts, and I thought he was probably kind of a nervous, twitchy person in general. So I just had sort of an intuition that when it came down to it, for all his talk and Instagram postings about it, he might not be able to actually go through with it himself.

Also, since he was the more outwardly suicidal of the two, it's possible he researched gunshot suicides before and realized they can go wrong. As I said, I also suspect these guys read up on Columbine at some point. Both Columbine shooters kind of messed up their suicides...Eric apparently blew half his head off, whereas Dylan I guess flinched at the last moment or something and ended up choking to death on his own blood (what a cheerful topic of discussion....)

I also think this was sort of the ultimate expression of their codependency and loyalty to each other. Kam probably knew Bryer was suicidal for years and it's possible he even saw it as sort of a mercy killing in a way, like finally putting Bryer out of his misery. It was like one last act of friendship. That may seem messed up to a non-suicidal person (in fact some people were more shocked that Kam killed Bryer than that both of them killed innocent people). But to a suicidal person, it makes total sense and they would see it as a positive thing.

Either way I think Bryer had this specific fantasy of Kam being the one to kill him for a long time, like maybe even before they decided to go on a killing spree.

 

[LoisLane]

I believe it was what Bryer wanted and Kam was being a loyal friend.

Maybe it’s the world “loyal” I have trouble with. That’s quite the ask, but they did kill so there is no sense either.

We never did learn if both guns were in working order when found so there is a possibility that they only had one that worked (at the time) and they both needed to die. If thats the case then I can see why the report says they acted in a partnership. Much more pertinent if that’s what the issue was. Deciding who shot who could have been as simple as flipping a coin or Roshambo.

My gut feeling is that KM was looking forward to killing BS. A last WTF moment of suspense and surprise to BS and the ultimate end for KM to prove he has no loyalty to any one person.

 

[LoisLane]

Would it have been from a gun store though? Or do you think it would have been from an individual seller? It's possible the police are asking around gun stores in the area with the serial numbers but just not releasing them publicly. I'm sure they have asked around all the local stores. Are there gun shows in Canada?


It sounds from the report like they described their plan to do this on one of the videos (probably video #4). I wonder if they gave a reason for it in that video (probably not because when did they ever give a reason for anything). "Based on the autopsy findings, the firearms lab report, analysis of the scene and the content of the videos it is believed that McLeod shot Schmegelsky before shooting himself in a suicide pact."

As for why...well I actually predicted back when their bodies were found that it would turn out Kam shot Bryer in an assisted suicide. I'm still amazed that I predicted that! My reasoning for it at the time was that Bryer seemed kind of nervous and twitchy in the surveillance footage as well as the witness accounts, and I thought he was probably kind of a nervous, twitchy person in general. So I just had sort of an intuition that when it came down to it, for all his talk and Instagram postings about it, he might not be able to actually go through with it himself.

Also, since he was the more outwardly suicidal of the two, it's possible he researched gunshot suicides before and realized they can go wrong. As I said, I also suspect these guys read up on Columbine at some point. Both Columbine shooters kind of messed up their suicides...Eric apparently blew half his head off, whereas Dylan I guess flinched at the last moment or something and ended up choking to death on his own blood (what a cheerful topic of discussion....)

I also think this was sort of the ultimate expression of their codependency and loyalty to each other. Kam probably knew Bryer was suicidal for years and it's possible he even saw it as sort of a mercy killing in a way, like finally putting Bryer out of his misery. It was like one last act of friendship. That may seem messed up to a non-suicidal person (in fact some people were more shocked that Kam killed Bryer than that both of them killed innocent people). But to a suicidal person, it makes total sense and they would see it as a positive thing.

Either way I think Bryer had this specific fantasy of Kam being the one to kill him for a long time, like maybe even before they decided to go on a killing spree.

It could have been from a gun store but also could have been private but if private then it was shady private cuz the seller never came forward. I would like to trust that there is some further verification with gun stores to track used sales.

I’m not sure about gun shows here. Not like the states where it’s advertised on billboards and Vegas and Arizona warehouses where people come from all over. I always am shocked to see that when in those areas!

I was chatting to a friend today who bought his son his first SK whatever it’s called.. he bought it at Cabella’s, old army gun from Second World War, various parts changed, bought for $206 CDN.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Maybe it’s the world “loyal” I have trouble with.

They shared an insanely corrupt value system, but it can't really be denied that they were loyal to each other until the end. They literally went to the ends of the earth together, and in a situation where a lot of people would have turned on each other (there were even a few criminologists that were interviewed during the manhunt who predicted they would turn on each other).

We never did learn if both guns were in working order when found so there is a possibility that they only had one that worked (at the time) and they both needed to die.

I have a feeling the older gun stopped working and that's why they used an alternate M.O. with Professor Dyck

However they could have just shot themselves one after the other still. If you can emotionally go through with shooting your friend, you can emotionally go through with shooting yourself with the gun that your friend just shot himself with.

My gut feeling is that KM was looking forward to killing BS. A last WTF moment of suspense and surprise to BS and the ultimate end for KM to prove he has no loyalty to any one person.

But that's not what the police said. The police said the content of the videos was one piece of evidence leading them to believe Kam shot Bryer in a suicide pact. Which heavily implies they said on the videos that was their plan. It sounds like the police conclusively ruled out that it was anything else.

It could have been from a gun store but also could have been private but if private then it was shady private cuz the seller never came forward. I would like to trust that there is some further verification with gun stores to track used sales.

The seller might be afraid to come forward, especially if they were supposed to do something to update the paperwork and didn't.

I’m not sure about gun shows here. Not like the states where it’s advertised on billboards and Vegas and Arizona warehouses where people come from all over. I always am shocked to see that when in those areas!

Yeah I live within 10 miles of NYC so...gun shows are not a familiar thing in my area either. So I don't know much about them except that apparently you can buy guns there with loopholes in the restrictions, at least in the US.

 

[ktm44]

If buying a used gun privately apparently no paperwork is required/recorded. Sounds like all restricted firearms are supposed to be registered but from what I hear used/private purchases are not typically registering them. PAL licenses should be presented but it is not tracked so I guess it’s the honour system.

Cabella's sells used but if it was the same store they would have been able to track the older gun if police requested. Cabella’s would have had to keep some sort of inventory.

I am still hopeful that some sort of overlooked gun shop can verify the sale of that older gun. Did police release the serial numbers?

I wonder how soon after KM turned 18 that he received his PAL license. He would have most likely had a parent as the registered ownership of the hunting guns he would use until the legal age that he could acquire his own legally. He would have taken the course, had his record check, reference check etc. I’m curious when that all took place.

I think you're confused about restricted and non restricted firearms. A PAL will not allow you to purchase a restricted firearm, you will need to present your restricted firearms license plus proof of current membership at a local range. When you purchase a restricted firearm, you are not able to take it home until the appropriate paperwork has been completed, the CFO has approved the purchase and issued documents to transport, which can take up to a week. You are expected to pay for your restricted firearm before you submit paperwork and the stores I'm familiar with, make it very clear that if your application is denied, you will not receive a full refund.

No individual would go through the trouble to purchase and register a restricted firearm, sell it without completing the proper paperwork and risk having the rest of their firearms seized as well as losing their right to own firearms just to avoid paperwork. The CFO has the right to inspect anyone's restricted firearms at any time and while I have never known anyone to have it happen, nobody really wants to give them any reason for an inspection.

The only place you can legally shoot restricted firearms is at a range and private ranges will ask for documentation before you can enter the range area.

One can sell a non restricted firearm privately to someone who has a PAL but the people I know take a copy of PAL and include the information on the bill of sale but without a PAL, the purchaser can't legally purchase ammo.

The sale of restricted firearms is irrelevant to this discussion because the SKS is a non restricted firearm, as indicated in the police report and it seems that Cabella's followed proper protocol because the purchase ties back to Kam's PAL.

 

[FactFinder3000]

[...]

But that's not what the police said. The police said the content of the videos was one piece of evidence leading them to believe Kam shot Bryer in a suicide pact. Which heavily implies they said on the videos that was their plan. It sounds like the police conclusively ruled out that it was anything else.

[...]

I don't think the report implies that they said in the video that McLeod would shoot Schmegelsky.

From the report:
"This video is 19 seconds long and they describe they are going to shoot themselves;"

From the report:
"Based on the autopsy findings, the firearms lab report, analysis of the scene and the content of the videos it is believed that McLeod shot Schmegelsky before shooting himself in a suicide pact."

My take on this is that the totality of evidence leads them to the believed scenario. "analysis of the scene" would be the thing that pointed to McLeod shooting Schmegelsky. If Schmegelsky was, in fact, shot in the back of the head, that's a fairly strong indicator that he didn't do it himself.

 

[LoisLane]

I think you're confused about restricted and non restricted firearms. A PAL will not allow you to purchase a restricted firearm, you will need to present your restricted firearms license plus proof of current membership at a local range. When you purchase a restricted firearm, you are not able to take it home until the appropriate paperwork has been completed, the CFO has approved the purchase and issued documents to transport, which can take up to a week. You are expected to pay for your restricted firearm before you submit paperwork and the stores I'm familiar with, make it very clear that if your application is denied, you will not receive a full refund.

No individual would go through the trouble to purchase and register a restricted firearm, sell it without completing the proper paperwork and risk having the rest of their firearms seized as well as losing their right to own firearms just to avoid paperwork. The CFO has the right to inspect anyone's restricted firearms at any time and while I have never known anyone to have it happen, nobody really wants to give them any reason for an inspection.

The only place you can legally shoot restricted firearms is at a range and private ranges will ask for documentation before you can enter the range area.

One can sell a non restricted firearm privately to someone who has a PAL but the people I know take a copy of PAL and include the information on the bill of sale but without a PAL, the purchaser can't legally purchase ammo.

The sale of restricted firearms is irrelevant to this discussion because the SKS is a non restricted firearm, as indicated in the police report and it seems that Cabella's followed proper protocol because the purchase ties back to Kam's PAL.

I’m confused why I would be confused about this.. lol

Some people just don’t abide by the rules it seems. I didn’t understand it either but I was assured there was nothing wrong with not registering an unregistered gun. Maybe its because the gun registry thing was dissolved. I have no idea.

Presenting the PAL in a private sale for restricted weapons would make no sense. I understand that. Anyways it is irrelevant because the guns we are discussing are unrestricted.

As for KM purchasing and then having unrestricted guns I have no issue with that or with Cabella’s selling to KM.

ETA.. went back and read my original post.. I should have proofed that better. It was confusing.

 

[Runningforthewind]

My take on this is that the totality of evidence leads them to the believed scenario. "analysis of the scene" would be the thing that pointed to McLeod shooting Schmegelsky. If Schmegelsky was, in fact, shot in the back of the head, that's a fairly strong indicator that he didn't do it himself.

I have my opinions on what I feel went down here. But won't discuss further without potentially posting against TOS.

 

[LoisLane]

They shared an insanely corrupt value system, but it can't really be denied that they were loyal to each other until the end. They literally went to the ends of the earth together, and in a situation where a lot of people would have turned on each other (there were even a few criminologists that were interviewed during the manhunt who predicted they would turn on each other).



I have a feeling the older gun stopped working and that's why they used an alternate M.O. with Professor Dyck

However they could have just shot themselves one after the other still. If you can emotionally go through with shooting your friend, you can emotionally go through with shooting yourself with the gun that your friend just shot himself with.



But that's not what the police said. The police said the content of the videos was one piece of evidence leading them to believe Kam shot Bryer in a suicide pact. Which heavily implies they said on the videos that was their plan. It sounds like the police conclusively ruled out that it was anything else.



The seller might be afraid to come forward, especially if they were supposed to do something to update the paperwork and didn't.



Yeah I live within 10 miles of NYC so...gun shows are not a familiar thing in my area either. So I don't know much about them except that apparently you can buy guns there with loopholes in the restrictions, at least in the US.

Personally I think BS may have been “loyal” to KM but I feel that for KM it was purely selfish. A selfish loyalty perhaps. It’s the video of BS stating that they are marching off to Africa or wherever that brings me to thinking it was unexpected to BS. Just a feeling. Can’t explain it I guess.

If there are loopholes for the private sale not having filed paperwork not being a criminal offence then no excuse. (If that is accurate, from what I have learned it is not illegal but I could be 100% misinformed). That person would be doing the right thing if so.

I still think that if if the plan was clear to police via the video evidence that KM shooting BS in the back of the head was consensual then they should have flat out said it in the report.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I don't think the report implies that they said in the video that McLeod would shoot Schmegelsky.

From the report:
"This video is 19 seconds long and they describe they are going to shoot themselves;"

From the report:
"Based on the autopsy findings, the firearms lab report, analysis of the scene and the content of the videos it is believed that McLeod shot Schmegelsky before shooting himself in a suicide pact."

My take on this is that the totality of evidence leads them to the believed scenario. "analysis of the scene" would be the thing that pointed to McLeod shooting Schmegelsky. If Schmegelsky was, in fact, shot in the back of the head, that's a fairly strong indicator that he didn't do it himself.

It doesn't take 19 seconds to say "hey, we're going to kill ourselves." That alone indicates to me they "described" (as it was phrased) how they would do it.

And yes the totality of evidence leads them to that scenario, but the fact that they mentioned "the content of the videos" as one indication that "McLeod shot Schmegelsky in a suicide pact" indicates that there could have been something in the videos that led them to that conclusion.

Personally I think BS may have been “loyal” to KM but I feel that for KM it was purely selfish. A selfish loyalty perhaps.

Kam was described as really loyal by several of his friends. I think they were both loyal to each other...a militia of two.

It’s the video of BS stating that they are marching off to Africa or wherever that brings me to thinking it was unexpected to BS.

Technically the description isn't clear on which of them said that, or if they both did. I'm also pretty sure it wasn't meant seriously. They may have said it to be dramatic or even as a dark joke. I think suicide was always the endgame and they knew it. In fact I think suicide was the whole point, as it generally is for spree killers.

Literally all the other videos are about suicide and preparing for death. You can't possibly claim Bryer wasn't ready to die because clearly he was.

If there are loopholes for the private sale not having filed paperwork not being a criminal offence then no excuse. (If that is accurate, from what I have learned it is not illegal but I could be 100% misinformed). That person would be doing the right thing if so.

I see. Well maybe they just don't even remember making the sale and have no idea.

I still think that if if the plan was clear to police via the video evidence that KM shooting BS in the back of the head was consensual then they should have flat out said it in the report.

I feel that they did based on the quote I posted. However, we've discussed how this report is full of poorly worded stuff.

 

[sandbar]

(bbm)

guns are a hugs issue in Canada
I live here and I would say theyère a huge issue in the States ...

I'm Canadian too!

I mean gun control, gun regulation, and just plain guns used by people for killing people are a big deal...

 

[Jan424]

I have to admit after everything that has been released, I'm still unconvinced Kam and Bryer were on drugs during any of this. They just don't strike me as big drug users even with everything we have all learned in the last ten days. However, I've never gotten a drug vibe since the start of this whole thing. I think the decision to embark on this "adventure" was fueled by: vivid imaginations, no direction, boredom, depression, problem drinking, isolation, sexual repression, seemingly terrible sleeping habits, eating habits and they simply stopped caring. I mean yes, we heard that story from the kid who went camping with them and what he told the media about Bryer, but that could have just been Bryer trying to be the bad boy in front of his and Kam's "company." Perhaps there was some Ritalin or Adderall involved on their trip but my guess is that was prescribed and easily accessible. I could never picture either of these two going out of their way for drugs, much less having the social skills to obtain them nor interested in those "channels." It just doesn't strike me as their jam. Of course we still don't know for certain and I do hope we get an answer. Outside of late night coffee and energy drinks, I don't think their was much need for drugs even with Kam doing all the driving. Not to mention, the real "power driving" didn't really start until after they killed Leonard. Before that it even took them from the morning of the 12th to get to Fort Nelson on the late afternoon of the 14th remember. It was a haul, but it was reasonable timing. I suspect caffeine and the thrill of the kill turned chase was all they may have needed. The word "coffee" has come up so many times throughout this whole narrative, I find that interesting. Speaking of thrill, I think this was likely the only time in their lives either of them ever felt alive. That's very sad if true.

Agree with all of this. I also don’t see them as heavy drug users, no vibe for me on that either. But it wouldn’t surprise me if there were some stimulants involved or abuse of prescription drugs. It would make sense, but then not much has made sense in this case. So who knows, their toxicology could be clean as a whistle. I do hope we find out. MOO

 

[sandbar]

I have to admit after everything that has been released, I'm still unconvinced Kam and Bryer were on drugs during any of this. They just don't strike me as big drug users even with everything we have all learned in the last ten days. However, I've never gotten a drug vibe since the start of this whole thing. I think the decision to embark on this "adventure" was fueled by: vivid imaginations, no direction, boredom, depression, problem drinking, isolation, sexual repression, seemingly terrible sleeping habits, eating habits and they simply stopped caring. I mean yes, we heard that story from the kid who went camping with them and what he told the media about Bryer, but that could have just been Bryer trying to be the bad boy in front of his and Kam's "company." Perhaps there was some Ritalin or Adderall involved on their trip but my guess is that was prescribed and easily accessible. I could never picture either of these two going out of their way for drugs, much less having the social skills to obtain them nor interested in those "channels." It just doesn't strike me as their jam. Of course we still don't know for certain and I do hope we get an answer. Outside of late night coffee and energy drinks, I don't think their was much need for drugs even with Kam doing all the driving. Not to mention, the real "power driving" didn't really start until after they killed Leonard. Before that it even took them from the morning of the 12th to get to Fort Nelson on the late afternoon of the 14th remember. It was a haul, but it was reasonable timing. I suspect caffeine and the thrill of the kill turned chase was all they may have needed. The word "coffee" has come up so many times throughout this whole narrative, I find that interesting. Speaking of thrill, I think this was likely the only time in their lives either of them ever felt alive. That's very sad if true.

Alcohol is a drug.
Ritalin is a drug.
Caffeine is a drug.

 

[CinNC]

That's the gun that Kam bought (the new one) I hardly think it says Schmegelsky

I'm curious as to why you feel its not possible that it says Schmegelsky?

After the purchase it sounds like it was all for one and one for all with the perps. With all of that driving, what else did BS have to do? He easily could have spent the time scratching his name into the gun. For all that, it could say McLeod on the other side.

I'm not challenging you personally. I simply think that it could still say 'Schmegelsky' in spite of KM having purchased it early on.

 

[CinNC]

Agree with all of this. I also don’t see them as heavy drug users, no vibe for me on that either. But it wouldn’t surprise me if there were some stimulants involved or abuse of prescription drugs. It would make sense, but then not much has made sense in this case. So who knows, their toxicology could be clean as a whistle. I do hope we find out. MOO

I wouldn't be surprised if at the least, KM's toxicology shows some sort of heavy stimulant use. I know that they can track drug use from present to months past from human hair, if not from the tissue itself. I used to work in the Safety & Training department for an over the road trucking company and the random yet compulsory drug testing we did on drivers often included utilizing a hair to determine the person's drug use history.

If nothing else, he may have used something just to stay awake for all of that driving. BS may have done the same, to stay awake and keep him company.

BS could have been squirreling away his own meds in anticipation of the trip, or they could have purchased street drugs, or they could have purchased OTC stimulants. Or any combination thereof. It's possible that KM had his own meds; if he was attending VAST he may have had his own learning or behavioral disabilities that were being managed through meds.

Typically, learning and behavioral issues (such as ADHD/ADD) can be managed quite well with meds - as long as they are taken as prescribed and the parents/guardians remain hyper-aware of the proper use of the drugs.

SSRI's may also have been present if depression was being treated in either perp. On a website that discusses the use of SSRI's in teens, I found this:

Factors that can trigger teen depression include:

• Bullying and other peer issues
• Academic pressure or problems
• Chronic disease
• Alcohol or drug use
• Family discord
• Sleep deprivation
• Confusion about sexual orientation
• Other mental health disorders
• Learning disabilities and ADHD
• Low self-esteem
• History of violence (witness to or victim of)

Teen Depression: The Pros and Cons of Medication

 

[Runningforthewind]

My question is, has anyone in either family seen these "suicide pact" videos. Keep in mind these two were best friends for the majority of their lives.

 

[RichP]

I have my opinions on what I feel went down here. But won't discuss further without potentially posting against TOS.

So why bother posting this??

 

[ktm44]

Personally I think BS may have been “loyal” to KM but I feel that for KM it was purely selfish. A selfish loyalty perhaps. It’s the video of BS stating that they are marching off to Africa or wherever that brings me to thinking it was unexpected to BS. Just a feeling. Can’t explain it I guess.

If there are loopholes for the private sale not having filed paperwork not being a criminal offence then no excuse. (If that is accurate, from what I have learned it is not illegal but I could be 100% misinformed). That person would be doing the right thing if so.

I still think that if if the plan was clear to police via the video evidence that KM shooting BS in the back of the head was consensual then they should have flat out said it in the report.

You are correct that there is no registration to file on non restricted firearms and I only took exception to your statement that the same applied to restricted.

I doubt if the the suicide plan recorded was specific enough to indicate where on the body KM planned to shoot BS or even that one intended to kill the other. That decision may have come down to the fact that the old SKS failed. The live rounds and casings at the Fowler/Deese murder indicated police found casings and live rounds, which led me to wonder if it had jammed previously. Neither strikes me as a firearms expert so I'd be surprised if they taken the time to clean and lubricate it.

RCMP have no disclosed many details on the autopsies but I've wondered if Breyer was injured or simply worn out and asked Kam to kill him. It's one thing to kill a stranger but I don't think many could look their lifelong friend in the eye and pull the trigger.

 

[musicaljoke]

I'm Canadian too!

I mean gun control, gun regulation, and just plain guns used by people for killing people are a big deal...

Yes, it's a big deal. Guns are simply not purchased with self protection in mind.

This reminds me of our earlier discussions when some WSers thought Prof Dyck would have had a gun with him to protect from bear attacks. It was hard to express how unlikely that would be.

For a good look at how a typical Canadian deals with bear attacks take a look at this article of a Winnipeg man who was attacked by a bear last week. In a press interview, he said:

"I don’t remember pain, I don’t remember fear, you’re just in desperation mode, its fight or flight,” he said. It’s a reminder to me of how thankful I am for life and how grateful I am to be alive.”

Schwab said he will continue to walk and hike near his cottage, but from now on he will ...

[ ... drum roll ...]


[ what will he do]


[...]

... from now on he will carry bear spray.

Winnipeg man attacked by bear 3 times in northwestern Ontario

 

[Jan424]

I don't think the report implies that they said in the video that McLeod would shoot Schmegelsky.

From the report:
"This video is 19 seconds long and they describe they are going to shoot themselves;"

From the report:
"Based on the autopsy findings, the firearms lab report, analysis of the scene and the content of the videos it is believed that McLeod shot Schmegelsky before shooting himself in a suicide pact."

My take on this is that the totality of evidence leads them to the believed scenario. "analysis of the scene" would be the thing that pointed to McLeod shooting Schmegelsky. If Schmegelsky was, in fact, shot in the back of the head, that's a fairly strong indicator that he didn't do it himself.

Yea, I don't think Bryer indicated in the video that "I'm going to have Kam shoot me first" .... I'd say the ME report, analysis of the suicide location, and just them maybe mentioning a suicide pact on video is plenty evidence enough, MOO.