Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

[DarkSkink]

Nope.

I had no clue.

It's the only legal argument she really had, and since the RCMP relented, it only made sense that was the leverage point. A suspect's family doesn't have any legal right to view evidence during an investigation.

It would be like discovery, where petitioning the court to have the video Will declared valid would almost certainly allow them access to the video.

 

[srper2]

@DarkSkink

Come to think of it, I wonder if the "burn the vehicle we're driving and steal the victim's car" thing had been their planned M.O. all along. Because Lucas and Chynna's van was broken. So maybe the original plan had been to steal it and burn their truck at that time. But since it didn't work, they had to continue using the vehicle they had. I guess that's another one of those pesky unanswerable questions (well, unless the police found Kam's fingerprints or DNA on the steering wheel, keys, etc...I wonder how thoroughly they looked for that kind of forensic evidence).

I recall this possibility being discussed several threads back. So far as I understand, the police have not provided information to say if BS or KM's prints or DNA was found on the steering wheel/car keys. If it was, it would support this theory.

 

[LoisLane]

I had no clue.

It's the only legal argument she really had, and since the RCMP relented, it only made sense that was the leverage point. A suspect's family doesn't have any legal right to view evidence during an investigation.

It would be like discovery, where petitioning the court to have the video Will declared valid would almost certainly allow them access to the video.

Well then “you are welcome”

It all sounds logical to me and I think the RCMP knew they would have to show it - they already had made the call to let Mom see it, (and had no place in making the call about the legalities regarding next of kin) but were dragging it out for various reasons.

Personally, I wouldn’t let it go if I was him and would try to sue for additional pain and suffering (or whatever legal course applies) But maybe he had to sign off that he wouldn’t do that either. JMO.

 

[LoisLane]

I recall this possibility being discussed several threads back. So far as I understand, the police have not provided information to say if BS or KM's prints or DNA was found on the steering wheel/car keys. If it was, it would support this theory.

If the prints would suggest that they had tried to start the van then does it slightly alter their theory about coming back and targeting LD because they had mechanical issues or would that theory also apply to CD and LF. I feel like it’s an important part that was deserving of more explanation in the report. JMO.

 

[DarkSkink]

Well then “you are welcome”

It all sounds logical to me and I think the RCMP knew they would have to submit it (and had no place in making the call about the legalities regarding next of kin) but were dragging it out for various reasons.

Personally, I wouldn’t let it go if I was him and would try to sue for additional pain and suffering (or whatever legal course applies) But maybe he had to sign off that he wouldn’t do that either. JMO.

I don't think he would get anywhere with that, as LE can argue there was something in the video that could interfere with the investigation should it be released to the public. They likely made that argument, thus the NDA.

Logically, they still had to consider that it wasn't just the two of them involved, or whether they had any help or contact from family or friends.

I see both sides of the argument, and the NDA is actually the natural and somewhat obvious compromise.

 

[LoisLane]

I don't think he would get anywhere with that, as LE can argue there was something in the video that could interfere with the investigation should it be released to the public. They likely made that argument, thus the NDA.

Logically, they still had to consider that it wasn't just the two of them involved, or whether they had any help or contact from family or friends.

I see both sides of the argument, and the NDA is actually the natural and somewhat obvious compromise.

Yeah but they had already allowed Mom to see it and KM’s family (if they chose to watch it) so the interference idea doesn’t fit. Unless of course he was considered an accomplice or involved. But then if it was a possibility about a third person involved then it shouldn’t have been shared with any family member until they ruled that out - and I bet that with the timeline of the RCMP piecing together all their evidence they really didn’t have anything on AS.

The video was viewed at the RCMP headquarters, no family member received a copy (from my understanding).

I agree the NDA was the answer and would have been the first order of business even for KM’s family and BS’s Mom. I bet they had to sign one too and it was just a delay game with AS. JMO.

 

[Trooper]

Especially since the violence escalated as well.

This. Why did it? . Such an imponderable factor. Much has been speculated that they were 'on drugs', no specific drug being offered, but I can't think of a drug that they could manipulate to kill 2, then wait 4 days, drive 500ks, and kill again, this time with, according to the RCMP, a significant degree further on of vicious violence. .. I discard the drug theory, on the grounds that there is no evidence for it, no supplier, no equipment, no record previously in PA, and no mention of them being interested in chemistry.

It would be a nice fantasy to imagine they finally, terminally disgusted themselves, beating up and elderly gentleman, trying to burn him and then shoot him.. but I discard that theory , too, since killing Chynna didn't faze either of them in the slightest.

So it boils down to character. One is left with the unavoidable. They wanted it like this. They obviously felt the first murders went too quickly, leaving certain desires and requirements unfulfilled, matters that had to be incorporated into the next killing. A private and personal list of wants and needs that had the consequence of satisfaction to both of them.

And the surprising thing, although there isn't much leeway to be surprised, is they actually managed to ramp up the violence , once having Prof Dyck pinned down, seemingly without any problem at all.

And then, seemingly, the violence died down, except for the future intentions, which I have no doubt, had they managed to keep going, they would have implemented without the slightest concern, and the maximum self satisfaction.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

This. Why did it? . Such an imponderable factor. Much has been speculated that they were 'on drugs', no specific drug being offered, but I can't think of a drug that they could manipulate to kill 2, then wait 4 days, drive 500ks, and kill again, this time with, according to the RCMP, a significant degree further on of vicious violence. .. I discard the drug theory, on the grounds that there is no evidence for it, no supplier, no equipment, no record previously in PA, and no mention of them being interested in chemistry.

It would be a nice fantasy to imagine they finally, terminally disgusted themselves, beating up and elderly gentleman, trying to burn him and then shoot him.. but I discard that theory , too, since killing Chynna didn't faze either of them in the slightest.

So it boils down to character. One is left with the unavoidable. They wanted it like this. They obviously felt the first murders went too quickly, leaving certain desires and requirements unfulfilled, matters that had to be incorporated into the next killing. A private and personal list of wants and needs that had the consequence of satisfaction to both of them.

And the surprising thing, although there isn't much leeway to be surprised, is they actually managed to ramp up the violence , once having Prof Dyck pinned down, seemingly without any problem at all.

And then, seemingly, the violence died down, except for the future intentions, which I have no doubt, had they managed to keep going, they would have implemented without the slightest concern, and the maximum self satisfaction.

Yeah, sad but true. I'm sure LD begged for his life. Mentioned his wife and sons, probably tried to level with them as well, etc.

Kam and Bryer didn't disguise themselves either as far as we know so they intended to kill and not leave witnesses. If they wanted mayhem or robbery, they could've covered their faces and not killed their victims.

 

[srper2]

Well, you don't need a gun to kill someone. However I think Kam and Bryer were not involved because:

a) This guy's bank card was last used by either him (the walking stick indicates it was likely him -- how many people use those?) or presumably a single suspect, a significant distance away from Port Alberni;

b) This guy went on very long walks of dozens of miles, even all the way to Nanaimo, which means there is a very large area he could have potentially disappeared from;

c) This guy regularly got into "street conflicts" in Port Alberni, so if someone did harm him, it's more likely to be due to something like that IMO;

d) Missing persons cases involving people with TBI or other brain injuries that can affect behavior, almost always turn out to be accidental deaths or suicides (in my experience following missing persons cases).

I was not referring to these people.

 

[CinNC]

This. Why did it? . Such an imponderable factor. Much has been speculated that they were 'on drugs', no specific drug being offered, but I can't think of a drug that they could manipulate to kill 2, then wait 4 days, drive 500ks, and kill again, this time with, according to the RCMP, a significant degree further on of vicious violence. .. I discard the drug theory, on the grounds that there is no evidence for it, no supplier, no equipment, no record previously in PA, and no mention of them being interested in chemistry.

It would be a nice fantasy to imagine they finally, terminally disgusted themselves, beating up and elderly gentleman, trying to burn him and then shoot him.. but I discard that theory , too, since killing Chynna didn't faze either of them in the slightest.

So it boils down to character. One is left with the unavoidable. They wanted it like this. They obviously felt the first murders went too quickly, leaving certain desires and requirements unfulfilled, matters that had to be incorporated into the next killing. A private and personal list of wants and needs that had the consequence of satisfaction to both of them.

And the surprising thing, although there isn't much leeway to be surprised, is they actually managed to ramp up the violence , once having Prof Dyck pinned down, seemingly without any problem at all.

And then, seemingly, the violence died down, except for the future intentions, which I have no doubt, had they managed to keep going, they would have implemented without the slightest concern, and the maximum self satisfaction.

It all speaks to two young men who felt completely and utterly powerless in terms of their own lives and futures. Between whatever issues they had that led to a non-mainstream high school (issues which were surely present their entire lives and did not just manifest themselves when it was time for high school) and, at least in BS's case, a life filled with acrimonious discord, I opine that the murders they committed were their idea of showing the world they were not powerless and, in fact, held the balance of life and death in their hands.

IMO I assume they knew it was wrong, but showing the world that they could elicit the ultimate form of power (life or death) over their victims and their own selves were more important to them than considering a different future for themselves.

Once they had spent their need to exhibit complete control over the fate of three people, (and three peoples' deaths may just have been "what it took" to exhaust their "need to kill") it likely took them some time to come to terms with their own demise(s) - specifically the time spent driving hell-bent for leather across Canada. IMO, I doubt the ultimate destination of Sundance was planned - they just drove, aiming for a lack of populace simply so they could keep going undetected until they had literally and figuratively reached the end of "the" and "their" roads, respectively.

MOO only, but I think it was a power "trip" (literally speaking) and when their bloodlust was sated, they turned inward and took control of their own fates.

 

[CinNC]

DBM

 

[FactFinder3000]

@DarkSkink

Come to think of it, I wonder if the "burn the vehicle we're driving and steal the victim's car" thing had been their planned M.O. all along. Because Lucas and Chynna's van was broken. So maybe the original plan had been to steal it and burn their truck at that time. But since it didn't work, they had to continue using the vehicle they had. I guess that's another one of those pesky unanswerable questions (well, unless the police found Kam's fingerprints or DNA on the steering wheel, keys, etc...I wonder how thoroughly they looked for that kind of forensic evidence).

If you're going to steal a van to drive around in, you would not shoot out the rear window.

 

[SovereignSnake]

ok but that Twitter account is clearly a troll whackadoodle.

I know it is hard to accept these kids were blooded killers, but that's what they were. If the RCMP says they were remorseless and cold....I don't think there is much reason to think they were emotional, depressed and sad. Sounds like they did exactly what they set out to and were fine with it, just too chicken to face jail.

Of course it could be a troll. I said that was a likely possibility. No one may ever know for sure. I just always found that Tweet interesting and yet another bizarre element that surfaced in a sea of bizarre elements. The gunshots in York Landing, yes, were about 120 miles away from Sundance. I'm sure it was just the military or RCMP officers trying to keep their search line intact as they reported. Why they chose to fire their guns and not just shout to one another is beyond me. Maybe they couldn't hear one another shouting to keep the line organized so they fired. That story was rather quite strange amidst all the other chaos going on. Anyway, I also noted the date on the Tweet as interesting. It was posted during the early morning hours of the 30th. The gunshots report was the evening of the 28th after the infamous "dump sighting." As I recall it was someone "from the area." They never actually specified if it was York Landing or Gillam as "from the area." There was also that weird story of someone jumping out of the ditch outside Gillam in the darkness and desperately asking a guy for a ride. Not entirely sure what happened there either because it was never followed up on. Sure, it could just be another hoax, but it does make one wonder with all the weird stuff shrouding this whole narrative.

 

[SovereignSnake]

Personally I don't think they had any issues with the Dodge until that report on the afternoon of the 16th. Even then they may have dismissed it as a fluke. I just don't think Kam and Bryer wanted to part with the Camper unless they started getting paranoid that someone was on to them or it really started acting up and became a liability. As far as the gas can purchase on the 15th goes, I don't think they were pleased with how they left things at the Chynna and Lucas scene and wanted to start burning vehicles and bodies. I really don't think either of them had a history with pyromania but just got the idea spontaneously after they killed Lucas and Chynna and that would be the plan from thereon. Kill, loot, burn the bodies and the vehicle.

 

[Errrr]

Personally I don't think they had any issues with the Dodge until that report on the afternoon of the 16th. Even then they may have dismissed it as a fluke. I just don't think Kam and Bryer wanted to part with the Camper unless they started getting paranoid that someone was on to them or it really started acting up and became a liability. As far as the gas can purchase on the 15th goes, I don't think they were pleased with how they left things at the Chynna and Lucas scene and wanted to start burning vehicles and bodies. I really don't think either of them had a history with pyromania but just got the idea spontaneously after they killed Lucas and Chynna and that would be the plan from thereon. Kill, loot, burn the bodies and the vehicle.

I’m am more and more convinced that they wanted people to be on to them. It is the only way I can explain how bad they were at evasion. If they had been in a more populated area, people would have been onto them sooner. It’s like they were trying to get caught. I’m not even convinced they were alive when helicopters were buzzing overhead. Hence the need to create a video to crow about their work, in the hopes someone would find out how bad-*advertiser censored* they were.

 

[poupetty77]

I’m am more and more convinced that they wanted people to be on to them. It is the only way I can explain how bad they were at evasion. If they had been in a more populated area, people would have been onto them sooner. It’s like they were trying to get caught. I’m not even convinced they were alive when helicopters were buzzing overhead. Hence the need to create a video to crow about their work, in the hopes someone would find out how bass-*advertiser censored* they were.

That makes me think about the encounter they had with the check point officers.

Was it on a deserted road or were there buildings around? Was it a road with a lot of cars? It was their chance to have a "shootout" with LE (or as close as it comes), they could have shot them there through the window of the car, or even come back and shoot them. They might have not known they were unarmed but still. All they did was apologise again and again.

You might say they were too cowards for that, but then, I wonder where were the guns? Would they fit under the front seats? It wasn't in view in the car, so it was either under the seat or in the boot. But what were they planning to do if they were chased by the police? They didn't want to be caught and sent to prison, but they had no way to shoot at the police/ kill themselves in the car? They were driving a murder victim's car by that point, they would at least think there was a risk to be chased.

 

[DarkSkink]

I’m am more and more convinced that they wanted people to be on to them. It is the only way I can explain how bad they were at evasion. If they had been in a more populated area, people would have been onto them sooner. It’s like they were trying to get caught. I’m not even convinced they were alive when helicopters were buzzing overhead. Hence the need to create a video to crow about their work, in the hopes someone would find out how bad-*advertiser censored* they were.

But, they apparently didn't post anything on social media anywhere. We haven't seen any camera footage of them waving or making faces at the camera. There weren't even any attention seeking incidents.

They may have even thought they were remote enough to burn the car without the smoke being an issue.

If they didn't risk turning their phones on, their only source of information would likely have been the car radio, which isn't always reliable in remote Canada. Would they have known the actual hype around the search? It wasn't really until the burning of the car that the case really took off.

If they wanted massive notoriety and wanted to get caught, I suspect it would have played out very differently.

 

[Trooper]

I’m am more and more convinced that they wanted people to be on to them. It is the only way I can explain how bad they were at evasion. If they had been in a more populated area, people would have been onto them sooner. It’s like they were trying to get caught. I’m not even convinced they were alive when helicopters were buzzing overhead. Hence the need to create a video to crow about their work, in the hopes someone would find out how bad-*advertiser censored* they were.

On the money there, Err... allied with the 'display' and exposure of the bodies they extinguished of all life, and all that goes along with life, and they had to touch the bodies to do that, to lay Chynna and Lucas facing the same way, the same posture in death, no worries to them about doing that, and up close and personal with Prof Dyck, as well. Leaving the bodies totally in view to any passer by, absolutely no attempt to hide their despicable act, or honor the bodies, or protect the bodies from animal curiousity, apart from their own animal curiosity.

I am convinced that slow stroll around the store, under the gaze, orchestrated by Kam with Bryer faithfully following, Bryer clean shaven and buttoned up , carefully avoiding gazing full frontal into the camera ,but aware of it, was another display, , they didn't appear to purchase anything and whatever Bryer shoplifted, it was small, and thin .

I go back to the PC tower, what is believed to be that in among the remains of the fire of their own truck , 2klms from Prof Dycks burnt and battered body, perhaps they thought they could be broadcasting their adventure to the world, The VI Virgins Vandalise the World, sort of thing, filming themselves at their 'work' ie, their murdering jobs, and at play, ie, their dinky camping efforts.

I think they thought they could be permanently attached to a server, somewhere, that they were not quite up to speed with life outside Vancouver Island, Vicious , Violent Babes in the Woods go Feral kind of thing,, their own production. Stars. Men of Substance. People to be reckoned with.

But to be reckoned with by people whom they surprised by stealth, people who had nothing to do with their problems, one a woman , utterly defenceless against two 6 footers, neither of those from Canada, although they didn't know that, and one an elderly, obviously elderly botanist. Not their peer group, or the community that 'so illserved them', not their parents who raised them worse than wolves, apparently, not their siblings, with whom they had to compete, not the local copper, or the school headmaster, a man of authority, not their work colleagues at WalMart, but unsuspecting random strangers, so that the advantage is all theirs apart from the weaponry.

Even their death was a display. And how sure were they that the good old RCMP would eventually find them, and rescue their phone, and take their bodies home to mum and dad, ey ? .. All on the taxpayers dime, too..

 

[DarkSkink]

On the money there, Err... allied with the 'display' and exposure of the bodies they extinguished of all life, and all that goes along with life, and they had to touch the bodies to do that, to lay Chynna and Lucas facing the same way, the same posture in death, no worries to them about doing that, and up close and personal with Prof Dyck, as well. Leaving the bodies totally in view to any passer by, absolutely no attempt to hide their despicable act, or honor the bodies, or protect the bodies from animal curiousity, apart from their own animal curiosity.

I am convinced that slow stroll around the store, under the gaze, orchestrated by Kam with Bryer faithfully following, Bryer clean shaven and buttoned up , carefully avoiding gazing full frontal into the camera ,but aware of it, was another display, , they didn't appear to purchase anything and whatever Bryer shoplifted, it was small, and thin .

I go back to the PC tower, what is believed to be that in among the remains of the fire of their own truck , 2klms from Prof Dycks burnt and battered body, perhaps they thought they could be broadcasting their adventure to the world, The VI Virgins Vandalise the World, sort of thing, filming themselves at their 'work' ie, their murdering jobs, and at play, ie, their dinky camping efforts.

I think they thought they could be permanently attached to a server, somewhere, that they were not quite up to speed with life outside Vancouver Island, Vicious , Violent Babes in the Woods go Feral kind of thing,, their own production. Stars. Men of Substance. People to be reckoned with.

But to be reckoned with by people whom they surprised by stealth, people who had nothing to do with their problems, one a woman , utterly defenceless against two 6 footers, neither of those from Canada, although they didn't know that, and one an elderly, obviously elderly botanist. Not their peer group, or the community that 'so illserved them', not their parents who raised them worse than wolves, apparently, not their siblings, with whom they had to compete, not the local copper, or the school headmaster, a man of authority, not their work colleagues at WalMart, but unsuspecting random strangers, so that the advantage is all theirs apart from the weaponry.

Even their death was a display. And how sure were they that the good old RCMP would eventually find them, and rescue their phone, and take their bodies home to mum and dad, ey ? .. All on the taxpayers dime, too..

There's no evidence of that though. They had ample opportunity to post something, somewhere online.

I'm also finding it difficult to think they felt the need to stick it to taxpayers.

 

[musicaljoke]

I think that if some teenager (or two) somewhere is going to be inspired by Kam and Bryer, they will commit a copycat crime whatever is released or not (in my opinion). It is actually worse because 1) they can project any intention on them 2) they can learn the "mistakes" not to make to make sure to become famous and have your message spread.

What if you are misinformed? The RCMP said its Behavioural Analysis Unit believes the videos may inspire copycat killers. I am glad that this concern was dealt with by a professionally trained team. The repercussions of being wrong could be very serious.